Does the EZ calculator take into consideration the molecular weight of salts?

[Elysium]

There is one thing that crossed my mind today....

The EZ water calculator lists all the salt compounds we can use to adjust the water profile.

Epsom, CaCl2, Gypsum......but does it also calculate molecular weight too?

For example.....Ca might not have the same molecular weight as Cl. Plus there are 2 Cl molecules there. So..when I type X grams of CaCl2, then the molecular weight should be taken into consideration. Does that happen?

Any thoughts on this?

P.S. And on top of all this......my epsom and gypsom salts are bound to water (CaCl2 is the only one that is 100% CaCl2). Meaning that I need to calculate how much of my epsom (and gypsum) salt is made up of water, right? Wow....this is getting out of hand. I am wondering how many of us are aware of these little things in homebrewing.

 

[freisste]

I'm not sure, so I won't provide a definite answer. But I will say it should probably be based on ions, not weight. And I think you have to get to the number of ions based on weight. I'm not sure there is another way to do it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Elysium]

P.S. And on top of all this......my epsom and gypsom salts are bound to water (CaCl2 is the only one that is 100% CaCl2). Meaning that I need to calculate how much of my epsom (and gypsum) salt is made up of water, right? Wow....this is getting out of hand. I am wondering how many of us are aware of these little things in homebrewing.

Can anyone comment on this one? My epsom salt is bound to 7 H2O and the gypsum to 2 H2O.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

All these water questions would probably get better answers in the Brew Science subforum

They are way too advanced topics for the beginners forum

 

[FlyDoctor]

Water calculations are not in molarity, but rather parts per million. In this calculation, MW doesn't matter since you are looking at molecules per million. Yes, the mass of the ions may be different, but 100 of them per million still mean 100 per million.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[orangehero]

Yes in the water calculators for the treated water the conversion to ion additions takes into consideration the molecular weight of the various brewing salts (in their most common hydrated forms).

Also CaCl2 is treated as the dihydrate form in the calculator if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Elysium]

Water calculations are not in molarity, but rather parts per million. In this calculation, MW doesn't matter since you are looking at molecules per million. Yes, the mass of the ions may be different, but 100 of them per million still mean 100 per million.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I agree....the ions in the water are calculated as ppm, but the brewing salts aren't and you need to know how much to add. For instance, if the EZ calculator calls for 3 grams of gypsum (and you have CaS04*2H20), then you need to add 3.79 grams of that to get 3 grams of CaS04 into your mashing water. Considering the molecular weight of CaS04*2H2...which is made up of 79.08% of CaS04 and the rest (20.92%) is the H20.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Elysium]

Yes in the water calculators for the treated water the conversion to ion additions takes into consideration the molecular weight of the various brewing salts (in their most common hydrated forms).

Also CaCl2 is treated as the dihydrate form in the calculator if I'm not mistaken.

I agree....but I am telling you that my CaCl2 is listed simply as CaCl2 on the label, meaning that it is not bound to water. While on the other hand my gypsum is bound to 2 H2O and my epsom salt is bound to 7 H2O.

 

[Demus]

Remember the great home brewing quote "relax, don't worry, have a home brew"? These are words to live (and brew) by. If a water calculator says add 3 grams of a salt to achieve a certain result, I doubt there's any further calculation necessary. Unless you have your own laboratory grade test equipment, you'll never KNOW the exact measurements of your water. This level of detail is simply not necessary to make great beer. To quote Palmer, water profile is "not about which base you're on, it's about being in the right ballpark". I think you're thinking at the micrometer level when your fingers will do....


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[FlyDoctor]

I see, sorry. To get it right then you need to calculate the portion of the mass that comes from the gypsum (or whatever) and subtract the water mass.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Merleti]

I agree with Demus.
I understand your desire for perfection so I can only add. Even starting with 0 TDS water and adding precise amounts of elements in the amounts you are talking about you are splitting hairs of split hairs. As soon as you add your ingredients the range of variations you will get from grower to grower will surpass the perfection you seek. Even if you use the same grower with the same year the crops location can impact your beer at the precision you are talking about. Fertilization,drainage,water used(element based and how often) ect..

 

[Elysium]

I agree with Demus.
I understand your desire for perfection so I can only add. Even starting with 0 TDS water and adding precise amounts of elements in the amounts you are talking about you are splitting hairs of split hairs. As soon as you add your ingredients the range of variations you will get from grower to grower will surpass the perfection you seek. Even if you use the same grower with the same year the crops location can impact your beer at the precision you are talking about. Fertilization,drainage,water used(element based and how often) ect..

I agree with both of you too....but if the EZ watercalculator calls for 3 grams of a salt and I calculate the molecular weight of the salt (which is bound to 7 H20), then I end up adding almost 6grams of that salt (almost double), due to the fact that almost half of the weight comes from those 7 water molecules.

So...doubling the salt will surely make a difference. Correct me if I am wrong though.

 

[orangehero]

I'm 99% certain that the most common hydrated forms of the salts are considered in the calculations.

If you want to be 100% sure, and it's already been suggested to you in one of the earliest responses, is to go to the Brewing Science subforum. That's where water chemistry questions are discussed, not the beginner's forum. Here I'll even save you the trouble of taking the time to go back and look for the link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/

And here's the thread on EZ water calculator:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ez-water-calculator-3-0-a-261001/

"-TH-", the person who made the EZ water calculator, will probably answer your question personally. It's even likely that your question has already been answered in the EZ water thread if you take the time to read through it (or do a search).

OK I just did a quick search and found the answer in 30 seconds.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ez-water-calculator-3-0-a-261001/index3.html#post3360099

I would be skeptical your CaCl2 is the anhydrous form. Anyway it's extremely hygroscopic and would eventually (pretty rapidly actually) pick up water from the air. If you are really anal, you can bake whatever CaCl2 you have at 200°C for 2 hours to make it anhydrous. Do a test on some of what you have, if it changes in texture and becomes more powdery, then you don't have anhydrous CaCl2.

 

[Demus]

Measure with a micrometer, mark it with a crayon, then cut it with a chainsaw. Was this method more accurate than skipping to the chainsaw? More importantly, did it make it taste better??


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Raygun]

I agree....but I am telling you that my CaCl2 is listed simply as CaCl2 on the label, meaning that it is not bound to water. While on the other hand my gypsum is bound to 2 H2O and my epsom salt is bound to 7 H2O.

It's almost impossible for the average person to have (for example) anhydrous CaCl2 - you need special conditions to keep it that way. It's safe to assume that the calculators are done with that fact in mind.

 

[Merleti]

Elysium I may have been a little haste, so lets check this out a little closer.
What is the water purity that you are using?
What type of water are you trying to replicate(world location)?
What is the water volume that you are calculating for?
What other chlorides are you using?
What purity are they?
Is the water volume pre boil?
What is the evaporation rate during boil?
What is the grain absorption of water?
Now I'm sure you can answer these. The problem is there are so many specifics that you may not be able to answer. With the type of grain or grains or ingredients are you using in respect to what type of molecules can they remove. We could go on ionic, surface area of equipment ect.

If you are using 5 gals or more 3 to 6 grams of salt should not make a difference on taste overall.
Would you rather hear add 3-6grams or add 3 grams? 3 grams is more precise. I would rather hear that and I feel you would too.
Use a consistent water base then experiment with perfection.

Hope this helps?