Does add K-sorbate and Campden = no fizz?

[citytransplant]

I'd like my next batch of cider still and slightly sweetened. I just want to double-check something before back-sweetening a gallon I made from apples (Tompkins King, Pippin, & Macintosh) picked from trees in my yard and juiced in a centrifugal juicer. After fermentation I racked to secondary and added 1/2 teaspoon of K-sorbate and 1 Campden tablet. In an effort to sweeten, I'd like to now add some concentrated apple juice to taste.

My understanding is that the addition of K-sorbate and Campden almost entirely rules out any chance of further fermentation once the apple juice is added and the final product bottled. Am I correct?

 

[ebstauffer]

Am I correct?

Yup.

 

[dmtaylor]

My understanding is that the addition of K-sorbate and Campden almost entirely rules out any chance of further fermentation once the apple juice is added and the final product bottled. Am I correct?

I don't think so. Sorbate and Campden don't murder the yeast, they just mess with their digestive and reproductive processes. Much of the yeast survives and can live on in the cider for a short while. It is possible to have a carbonated sweet cider with sorbate and sulfite in there. I've done it. It's a bit of a crapshoot, you're not sure exactly whether it will work or how much carbonation you'll get (usually either just a little, or too much). But it can be done.

 

[b-boy]

I'd pasteurize.

That's the only sure way of making a sweet cider that's guaranteed not to become a hand grenade at some point.

 

[Maylar]

It depends on how complete the fermentation is. If specific gravity is stable and there's no lees dropping after 60 days in secondary then adding campden & sorbate will keep the remaining yeast at bay.

 

[citytransplant]

It depends on how complete the fermentation is. If specific gravity is stable and there's no lees dropping after 60 days in secondary then adding campden & sorbate will keep the remaining yeast at bay.

With respect to the 60 days, in each of the 5 or 6 batches I've made so far (using the apples described above and Cider House yeast) most if not all of the lees dropped after 2-3 weeks. After that, small bubbles have been observed for another week or so. Now, after 30 days, things are pretty quiet. Is it common for lees to drop well into the second month of primary fermentation? If yes, is that due primarily to the type of yeast used?

Another question in response to b-boy's comment about pastuerization: wouldn't (re)pasteurization make the cider hazy? I've already heat pasteurized some batches and tossed pectic enzyme into those which cleared up the cider real nice before fermentation. I'd hate to undo that by heating again. Or once clear, does additional heat after fermentation not create a haze?

Thanks!

 

[dmtaylor]

I ferment all my ciders for many months... I mean, like 3 to 6 months typically. These are fermented in the 40s and 50s F. And sometimes, they remain hazy for the entire period, while other times they are clear as crystal. I'm not quite certain if it has more to do with yeast strain, or something else. I have used various yeast sources over the years and honestly have not kept track of which ones might be more hazy than others.

The one time I pasteurized after fermentation was complete, one of my crystal clear ciders turned hazy. So I would say yes, there is certainly some risk of turning a finished cider hazy by pasteurization. I won't do it anymore. Now I just bottle the cider after a sufficiently long period (months) that ensures yeast activity is long finished and will not be rigorous once bottled, even with addition of priming sugar. I use no chemicals at all. Often I'll get carbonation after another 4 to 6 months, but sometimes not. Maybe 50/50. I never expect carbonation in my ciders. If I get some later on, it's just kind of a nice surprise. That's how I view it. Otherwise I just plan to drink all my ciders flat.

 

[Maylar]

Never having stabilized my ciders (I don't keg), I'm quoting the 60 day requirement from what I've read here. In my experience, there is always some lees dropped in secondary after another month.

Pasteurization can affect the cider, yes. And it's certainly not required. The path you're on is proven to work.

 

[b-boy]

If I'm making back-sweetened cider I will either keg and chill, or bottle and pasteurize. That's just my process.

If I'm not back sweetening, then I let it ferment out, add the bottling sugar and let it carbonate. Since it's fermented out, dry cider, there's no real bottle bomb threat.

The difference is the back sweetening.

I've made hard cider using store-bought treated cider and a big starter and it finished fine. That tells me that the chemicals may inhibit yeast, but it's not 100% guaranteed. That's just my opinion BTW.

 

[citytransplant]

I ferment all my ciders for many months... I mean, like 3 to 6 months typically.

Do you keep your juice in the primary for the entire time and then go from there directly to bottle?

 

[dmtaylor]

Do you keep your juice in the primary for the entire time and then go from there directly to bottle?

No, I rack the cider about once every week or two for the first several weeks, then it sits in cold storage ("lagered") for a couple of months before bottling. Racking is done to remove most of the yeast, then the cold storage to halt fermentation early. The result is a sweeter cider that doesn't need backsweetening.

 

[citytransplant]

No, I rack the cider about once every week or two for the first several weeks

So, do you begin to rack before airlock activity stops? I mean, what is your trigger for the first racking? I'd love to arrive at a "sweeter cider" without having to ferment fully and then add sweet back in. I'd hate to rack too early however, and not have the ABV where I'd like it. Thanks.

 

[dmtaylor]

Fermentation may go too fast if you don't rack it. Removing most of your yeast by racking often will slow down the fermentation and put you back in control. Don't worry, fermentation continues even if you rack it 3 or even 5 times during the first month or two. It just slows way down. Then when you want to stop it cold, add gelatin and refrigerate. Then leave it a while longer. It will continue to ferment, but very very very slowly. During early fermentation, I just rack it once a week no matter what. After that, I shoot for a specific gravity of 1.010 to 1.015. When it hits that zone, add the gelatin and chill it down. Then rack it again. Then just keep it refrigerated. Works for me. I'm doing this on 4 batches right now. They are all currently in the 1.020s after almost a month. Soon as they dip below 1.015, WHAM, I'll try to stop it as best I can without using chemicals, just gelatin, racking, and temperature. It works great, but requires patience. Leave it another month. Once you're positive the fermentation is halted, you can begin to think about bottling it. Or, be lazy and just leave it for several months.

 

[PKnotlost]

Would not dropping the temperature of the brew to 40 kill the yeast?

PK

 

[Yooper]

Would not dropping the temperature of the brew to 40 kill the yeast?

PK

No.

 

[PKnotlost]

No.

Ok is there a article on cold crashing because I though that cold would kill the yeast, so i'm confused...

Thanks

 

[dmtaylor]

Cold temperatures make them sleepy, not dead. If you want them dead, you need heat or chemicals.