Does a Protein Rest Impact Flavor?

[Tippsy-Turvy]

I understand when a p-rest is typically used and the resulting impact on conversion and clarity. I'm also reading that decoction mashing (which includes a protein rest) produces a more complex malty flavor.

So, if i perform a p-rest on a grain bill with moderate levels of umalted/lightly malted grains before my usual single temperature infusion (@158F) , would i get a more complex malty flavor than i would without the p-rest?

Fyi, my gain bill is:

44% Pilsner
22% German pale wheat
11% Torrified wheat
6% Flaked oats
6% Munich
11% DME (wheat)

 

[IslandLizard]

From what I understand, a p-rest will not change the flavor profile, it just breaks down larger proteins in moderately and low modified malts and unmalted protein-rich adjuncts.

Decoction mashing develops flavor through maillard reactions and caramelization when boiling parts of the mash. Decoction mashing mostly benefits low or moderately modified malts, hence the needed preceding steps and rests, such as a p-rest, to prepare the mash adequately.

 

[JayDubWill]

Exactly what IslandLizard is saying. If you're after a malty profile, a decoction will only bump up the maltiness, not necessarily increase the complexity to noticeable levels. At least not like the complexity you would get from boiling the first runnings for hours for a barleywine. for complexity try adding 10~15% of a biscuit, Vienna, or munich malt or maybe a bit of all three. These will keep your SRM lighter since i'm not sure what style of beer your making.

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

Outstanding pointers, guys. Thank you!

 

[VladOfTrub]

Instead of performing a low temperature protein rest, bump the temperature up into the 130 to 135F range. The reason for this is due to the high modified malt that you are using. The temperature will kick in proteolytic enzymes. The enzyme will break down beta glucan, converting it to glucose and will reduce mash viscosity. Protein reduction will occur, but not drastically enough to impact the foam.

This happens: The wort produced will be cleaner. Meaning, there will be a little less goop in it. So, when it ages and begins to clear, there will be less goop that drops out, taking along with it, hops and flavor. So, if the primary process creates a "malty" beer and the rest is employed, the beer will have a little more shelf life.
If batch sparging is part of the process, what takes place during the rest will be undone.

Before the invention of modern malt, which wasn't that long ago, beer was produced by using some form of the tri-decoction method.

"If you're after a malty profile, a decoction will only bump up the maltiness, not necessarily increase the complexity to noticeable levels. At least not like the complexity you would get from boiling the first runnings for hours for a barleywine."

Does that mean that if I were to boil the first runnings produced from the decoction method and boiled it for hours, it would be less complex if I were to use the method to brew barleywine?

 

[JayDubWill]

Sorry for the confusion. A Barleywine technique is to boil the first runnings for hours down to syrup, of course a larger amount of water and grain are used in the mash. Decoction mashing is a German technique, not used in barleywines as far as I know. For 99% of the beers most homebrewers make malt complexity comes from the grain bill. Considering your recipe, it looks like your going after a wheat beer. Yeast selection, hops, and fermentation are all more important for that style than malt backbone. I read somewhere that a protein rest will favor the development of banana or clove (can't remember which) in German hefeweisen beers. Of course you've got to use a German weissbeer yeast.

 

[VladOfTrub]

OP..Check Weyermann's site and look at some of their recipes. If you have questions about how to brew beer, particularly, German beer, e-mail them. They are nice people and are extremely helpful.
You'll notice that they recommend step mashing and employing a low temperature protein rest in their recipes. It is due to the Kolbach number of the malt. The Kolbach indicates level of modification. The Kolbach of their Pils and floor malt indicates lower modification, but the percentage of protein is closer to high modified malt. I use their light and dark floor malt with sauer malt and that is it. I employ the 122F rest in the first decoction and a higher temperature in the proteolysis range, in the main mash. Killing two birds with one stone.
With some roasted malt and those two malts, a lot of styles of beer can be brewed when using the tri-decoction method.
It's not a bad idea to familiarize yourself with the numbers that are on the malt data sheet that comes with the malt you are using. Weyermann will tell you exactly whats in the malt in the sack by e-mailing the bar code numbers to them. They can trace the grain to the field it came from. Best Malz is as good.

"Decoction mashing is a German technique, not used in barleywines as far as I know."

Yes, I know that the decoction method is a German method. It is the method that I have used since 1987. I also know what takes place during mashing in the infusion method, as well as what takes place during mashing in the tri-decoction method. When a brewer uses the infusion method. It is impossible, nutriently, chemically and enzymatically to create the quality, stability and shelf life in the beer, that the tri-decoction method produces, regardless of the style or recipe, barley wine included. A brewer that uses the decoction method has far more control over complexity and over what ends up in the keg, than a brewer using a single temperature saccharification rest method.

You are confused about what a protein rest does. It has very little to do with creating banana/clove character in beer. The rest is called the ferulic acid rest and the rest temperature is lower than that of the protein rest. The rest is began at the high end of mash pH, 5.8. If the pH isn't at that point, the rest won't work. After the ferulic rest is complete, the brewmaster will lower mash pH to the pH that proteolytic enzymes favor and raise the mash temperature into the proteolysis range. Both rests are beneficial when wheat is used. And no. Special yeast isn't needed for creating the clove banana character, standard 802 and 830 creates the flavors quickly at ale temps. So, when you mentioned, "of course you have to use German Weissbeer yeast" isn't necessarily true.

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

Thanks VladOfTrub! I'll take a look at the Weyermann site (I had no idea they would have recipes and stuff).

Just on your point below, I'm a little confused. Are you suggesting a higher 1st step at 130-135 before the saccharification step or are you suggesting a single low temp step at this range? Boy, from what I'm reading it seems a tri-decoction mash is a lot of work....

Instead of performing a low temperature protein rest, bump the temperature up into the 130 to 135F range.

Slightly off topic, but the grain bill is for my 3rd attempt at cloning a Hoegaarden. The last time I had a pint, I could swear I could taste a slight peppermintiness and licorice so I reckon it was brewed with fennel seeds! I'm going to try ~1 tsp of crushed fennel seeds in this upcoming batch.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Tipsy, try out the step mash method, at least you will have some control over when enzymes work at their best. Follow the recommendations from Weyermann or Best Malz. They want you to brew good beer and will guide you in the right direction to achieve that goal.

Yes, step mash. Step one: 130F, twenty minutes. Step two: Beta temp and rest time, based on style. Step 3: Alpha I and or Alpha II temp and rest time, based on style.

You never really indicated the style of beer you are trying to duplicate. The 158F saccharification rest indicates that you are converting at a one temperature rest, which produces mainly non-fermentable sugar. So, I'm kind of lost when it comes to what you are wanting to put in the bottle. The recipe, I'm not too sure about, either.

The grain bill I use is comprised of 30 pounds of floor malt and acid malt as needed and added at various times. I do a low temp protein rest, 122 to 125F in the first decoction, due to the characteristics of the malt, but I only rest a small portion of the grain bill at that temperature. The rest is 20 minutes long. After the rest, I allow the decoction to fully convert at a temperature that favors alpha. Then, the mash is boiled until it jells up. Soon after the mash jells, maillard occurs and then mellanoidin is produced. Complexity begins in the first decoction, because the decoction can be worked with for a fairly long period of time. The reason that the first decoction can be screwed with for a longer period of time, is that enzymatic action in the main mash is nil. The reason it is nil, is because the first decoction is pulled from the main mash while it is in the acid rest, when enzymes are outside of the temperature range at which they become active.

The tri-decoction method isn't really hard to do. Brewer's that use the method get the chance to see all of the pretty cool stuff that takes place throughout the processes that are used within the method. Just the scent coming from a fully converted mash that is boiling and in the mellanoidin producing stage, is unbelievable. Brewers using the English method do not have that privilege, mash is never boiled. So sad...
Check out posts from WobDee, he has been using the Schmitz process using Best malt, with great success. It's not a bad idea to pick up Noonan's book on lager brewing.

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

Great info, man. Much appreciated!

Then I'll try a 2-step mash tomorrow and incorporate a P-rest at 130F for 20mins.

The style I'm going for this time is a Belgian wit, although I'm still partial-mashing when making 5gal batches. The grain bill will be:

44% Pilsner
22% German pale wheat
11% Torrified wheat
6% Flaked oats
6% Munich
11% DME (wheat)

Adjuncts will be bitter orange peel, coriander seeds and fennels seeds.

 

[Denny]

I understand when a p-rest is typically used and the resulting impact on conversion and clarity. I'm also reading that decoction mashing (which includes a protein rest) produces a more complex malty flavor.

So, if i perform a p-rest on a grain bill with moderate levels of umalted/lightly malted grains before my usual single temperature infusion (@158F) , would i get a more complex malty flavor than i would without the p-rest?

Fyi, my gain bill is:

44% Pilsner
22% German pale wheat
11% Torrified wheat
6% Flaked oats
6% Munich
11% DME (wheat)

No, not in my expereince. Unless you have undermodified malt, a p rest might leave you with a thin, headless beer. Also, experiments done by myself and others show no flavor improvement due to decoction.

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

Wow, a reply from Denny. Well noted, thanks man!

 

[VladOfTrub]

"Also, experiments done by myself and others show no flavor improvement due to decoction."

The experiments were lame. The decoctions were performed improperly.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Tipsy. Brewers licorice is a nice addition in certain styles. A piece about 1 inch long is enough for 5 gallons of medium body beer. The problem with using licorice in a beer that doesn't age well, is that more licorice has to be added up front and the flavor becomes sharp and aggressive. It works best in a beer that can age, without degrading. The licorice isn't like candy licorice. It is quite hard and takes time to reduce in the boiler.

Something interesting; when "modern" malt was invented, which wasn't too long ago, there wasn't any data yet developed on it, which a brewmaster needs in order to brew beer. The brewmaster's already had all of the data that they needed on under modified malt, but none on the new malt coming out. A standard method of testing had to be developed and all of the malsters had to be on the same page.
The standard method chosen by the IOB and EBC; one gallon of water, heated to certain temperatures, dumped on one pound of malt and rested, starting with a 20 minute rest. The testing method is still used today. A method intended to be used as a means to gain one thing, the specific gravity of malt mixed with hot water, became a brewing method.

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

Tipsy. Brewers licorice is a nice addition in certain styles

Great tip, Vlad. I've never even heard of brewer's licorice but i'll keep an eye out for it. Unfortunately, will have to try it on a later batch as the current one (with crushed fennel seeds and my first p-rest) is bubbling away nicely. Can't wait - no matter the outcome!

I learned a hell of a lot from this one thread. Thanks everyone!

 

[sky4meplease]

No, not in my expereince. Unless you have undermodified malt, a p rest might leave you with a thin, headless beer. Also, experiments done by myself and others show no flavor improvement due to decoction.

How do you know if you have under modified malt?
It seems all commercially purchased malts are pretty well modified.
I will be brewing an American Pilsner later this week and was planning a p-rest at 120ish for 30 minutes followed by a sach rest at 151 for 30 minutes using 6 row and flaked maize even after someone recommended a single infusion mash.

 

[Rev2010]

How do you know if you have under modified malt?

I usually see it listed under the malt description on most sites I order from. For example, on Northernbrewer Weyermann's Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner malt is listed as slightly under-modified as is Briess' Pilsen malt. Come to think of it, I really only see under-modified pilsner malts.


Rev.

 

[Denny]

"Also, experiments done by myself and others show no flavor improvement due to decoction."

The experiments were lame. The decoctions were performed improperly.

How do you know how they were done?