Do you REALLY save any money by brewing your own beer?

[Ó Flannagáin]

In the context of a hobby, time and wages don't enter into it. As soon as somebody starts considering brewing as a means of saving money, time and effort have to be considered before the comparison is legitimate. No way around it, simple logic dictates that.

Actually there is a way around it, if saving money is only part of the reason. Like I said, I brew because I LOVE it AND because I can afford it. I can only afford it because I don't have to buy beer anymore. If I was buying beer, it would cost more than what I spend on brewing

 

[mr x]

(thinking of the taping and sanding of the new drywal in the second bedroom, the electrical outlets that need replacing, the wainscoating that needs to be installed, the closets that need new shelves, the painting that needs to be done.......... I can go on!)

Yeah...this just got depressing.lol

 

[rabidgerbil]

Some of the commercial beers I buy are more expensive, like $7 a six pack. I like good beer, and drinking good beer. I'd rather have two really wonderful beers than 6 of something that I don't love. So for me, I save money by making my own beer. But that's not why I do it. I do it because I'm a beer snob!

I have to agree. Even being an extract brewer, a normal batch of beer does not cost me more than $25. That is two and half cases for the same price as a single case that anything decent would cost me at Sams Club or Costco.

Now if you want to factor in the cost of equipment, etc, and amortize that out over time, then yes, each beer does cost a bit more, but I look at this as a hobby with a very enjoyable final product, not as a way to save money on beer. That being said, how much do you really need to spend on equipment? You CAN spend thousands, but you don't NEED to.

I mean, what do you really need for some really good extract with grains brewing?
All these links are for retail locations within five minutes of my house, so your prices may differ slightly.
A brew pot $20 (buy two, and you can do full size five gallon batches on your stove top)
6.5 gallon primary $21 (I find them on Craigslist for $15 or less)
5 gallon secondary $20 (again, Craigslist for $10 or less)
racking cane $3.25
syphon tubing $.50/foot (cheaper to get it at Lowes, about $.18/foot)
carboy cap $3
bubbler $1.25
bottles $11/case (again, Craigslist, usually free)
capper $15
hydrometer $12.50
bottle brush $2
carboy brush $5
grain bag $6.50
strip thermometer $3 (not necessary, but nice to have)
dial thermometer $10 (you probably have one in your kitchen somewhere already)

So for a total of $161 (less if you have a pot that will work already, and if you can find good deals like I do on Craigslist, etc.), you have a system that is BETTER, in my mind, than the starter system that MoreBeer charges $205 for.
With the amount that you save over commercial beer, you will pay for that kit in the first five batches that you make.

 

[rabidgerbil]

I agree. I think it's the EAC inside each of us that has to find an outlet, no matter how retarded the issue.

What is an EAC?

 

[TexLaw]

Well, on the topic of time, this isn't about the worth of my skill as a brewer, it's about the value of my time, i.e., what I could do with my time if I weren't brewing. It's about what someone would pay me for my time, should I give it up to them, rather than what someone would pay me for my brewing.

I'm self employed with enough work and paying clients to keep me busy from now until Ragnarok. If I wanted to, I could pick up a laptop and start earning a certain hourly rate, instead of brewing. If you want to put some economic value on my time, that hourly rate is the value.

Mr. x actually has a point, though. The way we are coming at this, "value" is the price a willing buyer would pay a willing seller. If no one was willing to pay me for my time, then the value of my time is $0. By the same token, if I weren't willing to to sell my time, the value of my time is $0.

I'm not willing to sell my time when I'm brewing. It's mine, and I've sold enough to someone else. Therefore, the value of my brewing time is $0. 'Nuff said.


TL

 

[olllllo]

If you are mortal, your time on earth has a value.

Hobby costing analysis here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/magazine/06wwln-freakonomics-t.html?ex=1336104000&en=cf285f7c004979b9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

You can disagree with me, but you'ld have to have a pretty compelling argument to get Mr Levitt to abandon the cost of labor.

 

[olllllo]

Sorry. Its behind a NYT wall. Use bugmenot.com

Whether or not you’re getting paid, it’s work if someone else tells you to do it and leisure if you choose to do it yourself. If you are the sort of person who likes to mow his own lawn even though you can afford to pay someone to do it, consider how you’d react if your neighbor offered to pay you the going rate to mow his lawn. The odds are that you wouldn’t accept his job offer.
And so a great many people who can afford not to perform menial labor choose to do so, because — well, why? An evolutionary biologist might say that embedded in our genes is a drive to feed and clothe ourselves and tame our surroundings. An economist, meanwhile, might argue that we respond to incentives that go well beyond the financial; and that, mercifully, we are left free to choose which tasks we want to do ourselves.
Granted, these choices may say a good bit about who we are and where we come from. One of us, for instance (the economist, who lives in Chicago), grew up comfortably in a Midwestern city and has fond memories of visiting his grandparents’ small farm. This author recently bought an indoor hydroponic plant grower. It cost about $150 and to date has produced approximately 14 cherry tomatoes — which, once you factor in the cost of seeds, electricity and even a nominal wage for the labor, puts the average price of a single tomato at roughly $20.
The other one of us (the journalist, who lives in New York) grew up on a small farm and was regularly engaged in all sorts of sowing, mucking and reaping. He, therefore, has little vestigial desire to grow his own food — but he is happy to spend hours shopping for and preparing a special dinner for family and friends. Such dinners, even if the labor were valued at only $10 an hour, are more expensive than a commensurate takeout meal.

 

[Brewing Clamper]

C'mon, let's keep this discussion in the realm of reality!

"reality is an illusion brought on by the lack of alcohol."

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Actually there is a way around it, if saving money is only part of the reason. Like I said, I brew because I LOVE it AND because I can afford it. I can only afford it because I don't have to buy beer anymore. If I was buying beer, it would cost more than what I spend on brewing

I totally get what you're saying...not only is it a really fun and rewarding hobby, but you no longer have to buy beer! I'm with you there.

Let's remember though just how addictive this obsession is. It always starts small, then snowballs. Once bitten, how many of us are going to be satisfied forever by boiling up some extract and a pound of crystal malt on the kitchen stove? For me the process gets more refined with each new batch, and there is always some additional item or ingredient that will make the next one better. By their very nature, hobbies grow and evolve, limited only by your ability and willingless to pay for them.

Even the little things (and RabidGerbil, you left out a lot!) add up so quickly. I've spent over $50 this year on Oxiclean. Oxiclean!!!

 

[mr x]

If you are mortal, your time on earth has a value.

Hobby costing analysis here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/magazine/06wwln-freakonomics-t.html?ex=1336104000&en=cf285f7c004979b9&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

You can disagree with me, but you'ld have to have a pretty compelling argument to get Mr Levitt to abandon the cost of labor.

It's not about an article or opinion by Mr Levitt.

In the terms of what we are talking about here, your time is as valuable as what somebody is willing to pay you (or what you would pay somebody else to do the work you should be doing). There's no way around that. You are what the market says you are worth.

If nobody is willing to pay you for your time tomorrow, it's pretty hard to make the case that you were worth $25/hour. Because if you were, where is the money? I say that for that time, your value was $0.

 

[Brewno]

I don't think I save money but I don't really care. Then again I have paid seen some of my favorite craft brews going for $60 or more per case. My last homebrew cost me $45 for the kit, a couple of bucks for a new stopper and some tubing; I also bought some hops for dry hopping and an extra muslin bag and some marbles to sink the bag. I also bought some fishing line to hold my hop bag suspended. I needed bottle caps and some more onestep cleaner. I also had to buy some sponges for cleaning as well as bottles of spring water. Then there was the bags of ice to cool my wort... See where I'm going. I always end up spending allot; but who cares the beer is mine! I made it...that's the whole point.
If I wanted to, or was concerned about saving money on a buzz, I could go back to what I did for my first brew. Two cans of LME which cost me $25, boil for 15 minutes and end up with a decent brew, a little better than commercial and much cheaper; but compared to what I make now....no way!

 

[rabidgerbil]

Even the little things (and RabidGerbil, you left out a lot!) add up so quickly. I've spent over $50 this year on Oxiclean. Oxiclean!!!

The only thing that I left out, as far as I know, is consumables, Iodophore/StarSan, etc... and I consider those as part of the batch cost, not as part of the initial equipment cost. If there is something else that you feel is necessary for a very basic extract and grain kit, please let me know and I will add it to the first posting. Oh yeah, I forgot my grain bag $6.50
and maybe a hop bag, and those are a whole 60 cents and my LHBS.

Everything else that I use on a regular basis is either part of my CF chiller system, part of my kegging system, part of my aeration system, or part of my starter/stirplate system, and I definitely do not consider those necessary to a basic system.

 

[olllllo]

It's not about an article or opinion by Mr Levitt.

In the terms of what we are talking about here, your time is as valuable as what somebody is willing to pay you (or what you would pay somebody else to do the work you should be doing). There's no way around that. You are what the market says you are worth.

If nobody is willing to pay you for your time tomorrow, it's pretty hard to make the case that you were worth $25/hour. Because if you were, where is the money? I say that for that time, your value was $0.

By your analogy:
If no one is willing to buy the beer that you brewed is it worthless to you?

The wage on your off day is not an earned wage. It is a value that you use for comparison. It is a cost, not an earning.

 

[Chris_Dog]

This is a gross rationalization but hey it works for me.

I figure the equipment cost as the cost of being into the hobby.
No cost for the labor because if I wasn't making beer it would be fishing or some other hobby.
The beer only costs as much as the materials do.

IE Grains, Hops, Irish Moss, and Sanitizer. I have to by spring water at the moment. I hope to fix that with the purchase of a filter after the first of the year. (Write the cost off to the hobby)

In this equation the beer is much cheaper than commercial brew.

Life is nice sometimes with blinders on

 

[trainfever]

I think the majority started out drinking beers that we see advertised on TV. Beers like BMC. I know I drank Bud for close to 30 years until I started bewing my own which has only been 2 months. I still have half a case but I like my beer better. The thing is that if we were to make a beer similar to BMC, we could probably save a lot of money. BUT.... since we've started brewing our own, we drinking "BETTER BEERS". I know I could buy a 30 pack of Bud for 20 bucks. If I were to buy a similar beer to the beers I brew, it would problaby cost around 40 bucks a case or more. So you can either save money, or drink better beer.

 

[rabidgerbil]

I hope to fix that with the purchase of a filter after the first of the year. (Write the cost off to the hobby)

I purchased five gallon jugs of drinking water when I made my first batch, and then I just refill them each time with my britta that is in the fridge.

 

[mr x]

By your analogy:
If no one is willing to buy the beer that you brewed is it worthless to you?

Financially speaking, if I am trying to sell my beer, and nobody is willing to pay for it, then it is worthless to them. It has worth to me because if I want beer and did not make it, I would have to buy it.

The original point in the 'cost' of brewing was that you must include wages as a cost of brewing. My point is that if you have no wages (a day when you have no work of monetary value to do), you have no cost.

 

[rabidgerbil]

My point is that if you have no wages (a day when you have no work of monetary value to do), you have no cost.

Which just begs the question, what is the cost if you DO have work to do, but stay home "sick" to brew, and your boss finds out, because he watches these forums too, and saw when you bragged that you were "home sick" to brew :cross:

All hypothetical of course

 

[BlindLemonLars]

This is a gross rationalization but hey it works for me.

I have to by spring water at the moment. I hope to fix that with the purchase of a filter after the first of the year. (Write the cost off to the hobby)

Life is nice sometimes with blinders on

So true...but you have to factor in the price of the blinders. Seriously though, these days it's hard to get by without some rationalization here and there, so I don't want to deny anybody their share.

My pipes are rusty, so I used to buy bottled water for brewing. Then I started using my under-sink filter system, only to find that now I have to replace the (expensive!) filter element every three weeks or so, instead of 2-3 times a year. I've just bought an RV charcoal filter and hose, we'll see how that works out. I should just bite the bullet and re-pipe my house...

 

[rabidgerbil]

I should just bite the bullet and re-pipe my house...

Does that get included in the price of the homebrew???

 

[olllllo]

Financially speaking, if I am trying to sell my beer, and nobody is willing to pay for it, then it is worthless to them. It has worth to me because if I want beer and did not make it, I would have to buy it.

The original point in the 'cost' of brewing was that you must include wages as a cost of brewing. My point is that if you have no wages (a day when you have no work of monetary value to do), you have no cost.

Labor is just like any other ingredient without which there would be no beer.
"no work of monetary value" is your definition.

If in the middle of your brew session, your sister needs a ride from the airport, is there a cost of cab fare with which you would tell her, "Take a cab, I'll reimburse you, I'm breweing" vs a cost of cab fare with which you would say, "I'll pick you up in a minute." That's a cost. It's the cost of your time.

Would you ever be inclined to take a vacation day without pay? Concieveably some people would pay for an extra day off. This show that those days have a value.

 

[mr x]

If in the middle of your brew session, your sister needs a ride from the airport, is there a cost of cab fare with which you would tell her, "Take a cab, I'll reimburse you, I'm breweing" vs a cost of cab fare with which you would say, "I'll pick you up in a minute." That's a cost. It's the cost of your time.

You just gave me work to do. Now we have changed the scenario from the original day off to a day where I have work to do. Apples and oranges.

Once again, explain to me how I can claim wages as a cost of brewing on a day when nobody is willing to pay me any money? Do you really feel that your beer costs you $150 in labour ( for example 6 hours at $25/hour)? If you weren't brewing, who was going to give you that money and for what reason?

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Does that get included in the price of the homebrew???

Hey, I'm having a hard enough time rationalizing the cost of my hobby...and you have to throw that in there?!?

I do include the price of all those filter cartridges I've burned through in the past several months. Maybe I'll just try a batch with the rusty water, it could become my signature style.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm getting frustrated in the debate because you're all making good points behind the wrong question. In plain english, homebrewing does not save the beer drinker money. Let's make up a hypothetical character that approaches you and says" hey, I like drinking beer but it's too expensive, how can I make beer cheaper?" You answer that he can save $5 a case but he'll have to spend 5 hours on each Saturday to do it. "Hell, I can work overtime at time and half on Saturday and buy 10 cases". Notice it's a pure economic question. I just don't agree that you're factoring ALL the costs if you ignore labor.

I have the same debate with my father who also likes to think he saves money on car repairs. He'll spend 10 hours on his back under a car replacing O2 sensors and whathaveyou only to find it wasn't the problem. Back under the car on Sunday, etc. He'll spend his entire weekend fixing a $200 problem. His normal wage is $27 an hour and I know damn well he would NOT take a $10 an hour job wrenching under a car.

To fix the whole debate, let's just agree that asking if a hobby will save you money is a stupid question because it's irrelevent. However, it still doesn't push me into conceding my point given the OP's original question. Again, I think the question prevailently being answered is... while you're brewing anyway, does the material cost come out less than the commercial equivelent. I agree, the answer is yes.

 

[mr x]

"Hell, I can work overtime at time and half on Saturday and buy 10 cases". Notice it's a pure economic question.

Ahhh yes, but what if you don't have the option of working the overtime? What if there is no work available for you? That's where I am coming from.

 

[olllllo]

You just gave me work to do. Now we have changed the scenario from the original day off to a day where I have work to do. Apples and oranges.

Once again, explain to me how I can claim wages as a cost of brewing on a day when nobody is willing to pay me any money? Do you really feel that your beer costs you $150 in labour ( for example 6 hours at $25/hour)? If you weren't brewing, who was going to give you that money and for what reason?

You are the one ascribing such a condition.
That wage figure is Bobby's.
I feel that it lies closer to his figure.
It really cannot be zero. You are claiming that on your days off you never have any other thing to do but brew. You should work less and go into business. You'll have no labor costs.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

What is an EAC?

It's not something that can be told. You must discover it for yourself.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18679

 

[mr x]

You are claiming that on your days off you never have any other thing to do but brew.

No, I am saying on a brew day, I have nothing to do. No overtime, no house duties I should be doing that I would need to pay somebody else to do. IfI had other things that need to be done, I would be doing them.

 

[Bobby_M]

You just gave me work to do. Now we have changed the scenario from the original day off to a day where I have work to do. Apples and oranges.

Once again, explain to me how I can claim wages as a cost of brewing on a day when nobody is willing to pay me any money? Do you really feel that your beer costs you $150 in labour ( for example 6 hours at $25/hour)? If you weren't brewing, who was going to give you that money and for what reason?

It's not for us to figure out where your wage opportunities lie. To suggest that you'd just as well sit around doing nothing on the weeked does not instantly make your time worth nothing. Again, in the context of the question you have to forget for a moment that you ENJOY brewing.

I do home improvement projects because I enjoy it so I've never realy figured out if the work could have been done by a contractor for my costs. But, if someone asked me if it was cheaper to hire someone or DIY, the first question I ask back is "what is your time worth to you?".

There is always a money making opportunity out there and the most wealthy people figure out buy vs. build, hire or in house. Of course, I'm digressing from the idea that leisure/hobby activities having intrinsic and unmeasurable value because that was never the topic of this discussion.

 

[Bobby_M]

How about this way... you love fishing and hate brewing and have one day off a week. A stranger asks you to brew them a batch of beer. What would you charge them in labor? THAT is your labor cost of brewing beer when figuring out what a batch ACTUALLY costs (if you're ever asked such a bizzare question).

 

[Chris_Dog]

What is the worth of a good beer that you brewed yourself??? or a great beer???
Is that not worth more cash than any commercial beer that you can find on the shelf?
While I consider my time off work more valuable than the time at work. I really like doing what I love. So if I spend 2 hours cleaning bottles Tuesday night. I don't even consider the inherent cost of it because I know I will be filling the bottles with awesome homebrew.
It is difficult putting a value on a hobby (or cost). The reason being that don't we work to do the things we love in our off time?

 

[mr x]

It's not for us to figure out where your wage opportunities lie.

But in your scenario, you have assumed 100% that they exist in order to include wage costs. If I was offered overtime instead of brewing, financially speaking, I would lose big-time to brew instead of work. If I am not offered work, my time is free. And I'm not about to go running around trying to find 8 different jobs just to fill my free time. It's my time to read, bike brew, etc.

 

[joejaz]

Your missing the point, this is a hobby, you can't factor in labor cost. I like to brew, i don't like to work. Why watch the Giants on Sunday? You could be gettin double time. The answer is you enjoy watching the game. So your doing something you enjoy and get to drink the fruits of your labor( probably wrong choice of word).

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

It comes down to

if you don't like brewing, but do it just for the beer: You are losing money

if you do like brewing (as much as watching tv): You are saving money

Honestly, how can we put a price on our free time? That's just letting money run your life. I guess I'm a bit of a hippy, but I work so that I can have free time to do what I want... like make beer.

 

[olllllo]

I'm going to drop it.
It's not worth it for any of us to go round and round on. Everyone else has moved on. We should do the same.

 

[finchlake]

How about it this way,

What if you worked all the time and made lots of money.

And you worked so much you went crazy and had to see a physiologist.

However Brewing gave you relief from the mental stress.

Look at all the money you saved by not having to pay a physiologist

 

[mr x]

You took the words right out of my mouth olllllo. We all have our opinion and it isn't about to change.

 

[AZ_Brew_Dude]

This is a gross rationalization but hey it works for me.

I figure the equipment cost as the cost of being into the hobby.
No cost for the labor because if I wasn't making beer it would be fishing or some other hobby.
The beer only costs as much as the materials do.

IE Grains, Hops, Irish Moss, and Sanitizer. I have to by spring water at the moment. I hope to fix that with the purchase of a filter after the first of the year. (Write the cost off to the hobby)

In this equation the beer is much cheaper than commercial brew.

Life is nice sometimes with blinders on

WOW! Looks like I really sparked a huge debate here. I wasn't even considering the "labor" cost since it's something I'm choosing to do. And I agree with Chris_Dog - the equipment is a one time cost which is required to get into the hobby - I don't mind that cost. It's the cost of the beer ingredients, electricity, etc that I was wondering about. And the only reason I asked is because I've read lots of articles which list SAVING MONEY as a benefit of homebrewing.

In my very limited experience with homebrewing it seems like that's a misleading statement - might be true in some cases, but it's almost not even worth mentioning. I was wondering if I was overlooking something very obvious to drastically reduce the cost of the batches - but other than moving to AG, that's not the case. And I don't drink ridiculous amount of alcohol daily, so those justifications don't apply.

If we leave the "labor" part out of the equation, is there anything left to debate? Let's get the thread over 500 replies!

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

WOW! Looks like I really sparked a huge debate here. I wasn't even considering the "labor" cost since it's something I'm choosing to do. And I agree with Chris_Dog - the equipment is a one time cost which is required to get into the hobby - I don't mind that cost. It's the cost of the beer ingredients, electricity, etc that I was wondering about. And the only reason I asked is because I've read lots of articles which list SAVING MONEY as a benefit of homebrewing.

In my very limited experience with homebrewing it seems like that's a misleading statement - might be true in some cases, but it's almost not even worth mentioning. I was wondering if I was overlooking something very obvious to drastically reduce the cost of the batches - but other than moving to AG, that's not the case. And I don't drink ridiculous amount of alcohol daily, so those justifications don't apply.

If we leave the "labor" part out of the equation, is there anything left to debate? Let's get the thread over 500 replies!

Well, even if you don't drink a lot, it doesn't really matter. Let's say you drink 2 cases a month. That's one batch. AG: 20 bucks, Commercial: 50-60 bucks.

Now, it will take a lot longer to cover the initial equipment investment if you drink at that rate.

 

[rabidgerbil]

Maybe I'll just try a batch with the rusty water, it could become my signature style.

So you can be blind and have dead taste buds?