Do you need a 1 off Stainless part built for your system? Let's discuss it.

[Dolomieu]

Have you fermented with this yet? I was thinking of something along these lines to keep sanitizer or yeast from being pulled back into the fermenter. But I was thinking of having a spunding valve and ball lock connector on the triclover, and adding a thermowell. Then you set the regulator to about 1-2 PSI and the spunding valve just barely above that. Then when you cold crash the pressure is replaced from the CO2 tank and there is no suckback at all.

Jay, could you make this? 2" triclover with a 1/4" tee for the spunding valve and this:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/npttokegpost.htm
1/4" tee: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...s2&tag=becausebeer-20&linkId=67ADUDDXYXLI63MO

then add a thermowell?

I haven't yet. Should be brewing in the next week or two. I'll try to post pics or a video once active fermentation happens.

 

[RTL]

I haven't yet. Should be brewing in the next week or two. I'll try to post pics or a video once active fermentation happens.

That would be cool. My primary concern is that yeast or sanitizer could still get sucked back into the fermenter. If enough pressure drop occurred then jar2 could fill jar1 enough to reach the input tube and get sucked in. Also if jar1 got enough yeast in it the effect could be exacerbated.

I had a wheat beer that blew out so hard it sprayed the sanitizer in my blowoff bucket all over the inside of the ferm chamber, then it the ferm chamber started growing mold. I had to change out the bucket three or four times throughout fermentation and try to combat the mold without bleach until it was over. Amazingly the beer didn't get contaminated but it was still a huge PITA. I haven't done a wheat beer since. Personally I like to set it and forget it when it comes to fermentation, and since I use the STC-1000+ that means after pitching everything to cold crashing is automated. So the concern is leaving this unattended.

Sorry for the long post, I'm not trying to critique your design I'm just wondering if this would alleviate my concerns and allow me to brew another wheat beer. It's dunkelweizen brewing season.

 

[Dolomieu]

That would be cool. My primary concern is that yeast or sanitizer could still get sucked back into the fermenter. If enough pressure drop occurred then jar2 could fill jar1 enough to reach the input tube and get sucked in. Also if jar1 got enough yeast in it the effect could be exacerbated.

I had a wheat beer that blew out so hard it sprayed the sanitizer in my blowoff bucket all over the inside of the ferm chamber, then it the ferm chamber started growing mold. I had to change out the bucket three or four times throughout fermentation and try to combat the mold without bleach until it was over. Amazingly the beer didn't get contaminated but it was still a huge PITA. I haven't done a wheat beer since. Personally I like to set it and forget it when it comes to fermentation, and since I use the STC-1000+ that means after pitching everything to cold crashing is automated. So the concern is leaving this unattended.

Sorry for the long post, I'm not trying to critique your design I'm just wondering if this would alleviate my concerns and allow me to brew another wheat beer. It's dunkelweizen brewing season.

Use the two jar set up with a S shaped air lock in the grommet. Leave the two mason jars dry(sanitized though), fill the S shaped air lock. Put only one tube inside the first(non-sour lock jar) on the nipple connecting the two jars. That should get you close to set and forget. By not putting a tube on the air locked jar lid, anything that gets pushed over there should stay. That the best I have, but think that will get you you desired capacity, oh that and using the biggest jar the kids will fit.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

That would be cool. My primary concern is that yeast or sanitizer could still get sucked back into the fermenter. If enough pressure drop occurred then jar2 could fill jar1 enough to reach the input tube and get sucked in. Also if jar1 got enough yeast in it the effect could be exacerbated.

To prevent sanitizer from being sucked up into my fermenter. I will use a single norcal unit on a mason jar. One end to the fermenter, the other to the sanitizer bucket. Simple calcuation to determine a safe jar size to use? Assuming you are crashing from 68 F, and also assuming only the fermenter gets crashed cooled, Multiple the gas headspace in the fermenter by 273/293 and then subtract that number from the headspace

for example .... my headspace in a brew bucket is about 2 gallons so.....

2 - (2 x 273 / 293) = .137 gallons. This is 17 ounces. I'll use a 32 oz jar.

I'm neglecting head heights of liquid and the small volume in the tubing. These are small effects and they work in your favor.

 

[RTL]

Don't we also have to take into account the change in vapor pressure of the liquid? Is that what you mean by head heights. Just seems like when I cold crash I end up letting a lot of air back in. I don't want yeast/sanitizer or oxygen to get into the fermenter.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Hi RTL, Head is the pressure a column of liquid. You can ignore it in the calculation because it's small.

My calculation is based on the ideal gas law. The reason you suck sanitizer into the fermenter when you cool it is because the temperature of the gas in the fermenter is reduced. When you reduce the temperature of the gas in the system, it responses by reducing the gas volume, or pressure or it pulls in air. Now I said "'or" but it can be a combination of any or all of these things. The Norcal system constrains the system to reduce the volume of gas. You will suck sanitizer/water into the jar, reducing the volume occupied by gas, but not up the tube to the fermenter assuming you size the jar correctly. Sanitizer/water is pulled into the jar until the system reaches equalibrium.

BTW, I'm not at all affiliated, I have been doing this for years with 2.5 gallon keg. Trying up a keg is an expensive approach. I just bought two and I'll put them on 32 oz jars.

 

[RTL]

Okay just calculated the vapor pressure difference and its about 0.35psi so I see what you're getting at. My only remaining concern is that air being sucked back into the jar is mixing with the CO2 that was in the jar so oxygen would still get back in.

Sounds anal I know but I'm trying to take my beer to that next level, ultra low total package oxygen like the German breweries do.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

We are taking over Jay's thread. PM if you have additional question.

 

[RTL]

True, sorry Jay.

 

[Jaybird]

HA HA HA..Not to worry guys...... If we're posting..We're learning!

Cheers
Jay

 

[mxstar21]

HA HA HA..Not to worry guys...... If we're posting..We're learning!

Cheers
Jay

I would like to see some pics of this thing in action.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Should have on Friday, and planning to crash on saturday. So I'll post pics.... You're gonna love these pics ..... centerfold pics

Most don't really think about the physics behind it, nor should they. Just know that when you crash with this system, you pull only CO2 into the fermenter, these are some of the same molecules of CO2 that recently left the fermenter, olds friends meeting again . The fermenter stays at atmospheric pressure. The system stays sanitary because air lock stays in place.

It's...... magic ..... like so many things in brewing. We aren't brewers, we're magicians !!!!

 

[SteveHeff]

Would you be able to provide a false bottom for a rectangular (cooler) mash tun?

 

[Jaybird]

Would you be able to provide a false bottom for a rectangular (cooler) mash tun?

Just get me the measurements. I build them all the time for brewers.

Cheers
Jay

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Nor Cal anti suck back in action

Before crash

after cooling, note water / sanitizer in Jar, 13 oz ... some of this would have been in my fermenter

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

cold crash pics, note the water/sanitizer it brought into the jar (instead of my fermenter)

 

[Jaybird]

Some of the picts didn't come through but I LOVE the set up! That's exactly the way it was intended. The bonus is its ALL Co2 being drawn back. ZERO OXYGEN!

Cheers
Jay

 

[milldoggy]

Damn you midatlantic and Jay, now I have to order these!

 

[SandstoneCityBrew]

Jay, I need one of these, but I want a larger draw tube.

 

[Jaybird]

Jay, I need one of these, but I want a larger draw tube.

Not in the cards as of yet. I have 5/8 stainless tubing and we can weld the heck out of it. But getting a tight bend is proving difficult. I can do about an 8" SWEEP for the 90 DEG. But a tight 90 bend is not happening. How tight of a bend do you want?

Cheers
Jay

 

[milldoggy]

Thinking about your stainless dry hop tube preorder, if you where able to fabricate these, be nice to have one that was composed of two or more chambers instead of one long one, then you could separate you hops so they did no all clump together,. I imagine they could just screw into them selves

 

[jmrybak]

Not in the cards as of yet. I have 5/8 stainless tubing and we can weld the heck out of it. But getting a tight bend is proving difficult. I can do about an 8" SWEEP for the 90 DEG. But a tight 90 bend is not happening. How tight of a bend do you want?

Cheers
Jay

What if you did a 45 degree cut welded to another 45 degree cut to yield an 90 degree turn (right angle) like this?

 

[Jaybird]

What if you did a 45 degree cut welded to another 45 degree cut to yield an 90 degree turn (right angle) like this?

Let me check into doing that for you. I'll be back in the shop Monday morning. Ill give that a shot and see how it looks. What would be your 2 measurements you want? From face of kettle TC to back of 90* and from 90* to end of tube?

Cheers
Jay

 

[Bassman2003]

One question about the Krausen Catcher dual nipple and bucket setup. Why is a short amount of tubing needed inside the jar? Seems like it would block any CO2 from escaping if the end was under water. This would not happen during a temp drop but what if the thing stabilized and started creating CO2 again?

The system is closed so it should work the same without any tubing inside the jar. Just wondering.

 

[milldoggy]

I think that would actually push out blow off liquid into the next jar. Without it, you could potentially fill the C02 jar with blow off material

 

[Bassman2003]

To clarify, I was going off the photos posted of the fermenter hooked up to the mason jar which is tubed to the bucket of water. The mason jar is the air gap in the system. When the beer is fermenting the CO2 would be pushed out of the fermenter, through the mason jar and bubbled out of the water in the bucket.

If you decided to crash cool, the reverse would happen. CO2 would be drawn back into the fermenter as it cooled. This suction would draw liquid from the bucket into the mason jar. Now I see all of this happening successfully with or without any tubing inside the mason jar.

The problem I see is if water was pulled into the mason jar from the bucket and a tube was being used, the tube would be underwater (as shown). If any fermentation happened and CO2 began to push back out it would have nowhere to go as the tube would essentially be blocked at that point.

 

[milldoggy]

Guess it comes down to how much pressure is required to push water from the mason jar, up the hose in to the bucket and can the jar and connection point hold that psi

 

[Carlscan26]

The problem I see is if water was pulled into the mason jar from the bucket and a tube was being used, the tube would be underwater (as shown). If any fermentation happened and CO2 began to push back out it would have nowhere to go as the tube would essentially be blocked at that point.

The CO2 will just bubble through the liquid

 

[SandstoneCityBrew]

Let me check into doing that for you. I'll be back in the shop Monday morning. Ill give that a shot and see how it looks. What would be your 2 measurements you want? From face of kettle TC to back of 90* and from 90* to end of tube?



Cheers

Jay

Length from face of kettle to back of 90 doesn't matter as much.
From 90 to the end of tube can't exceed 2 1/8"

 

[jmrybak]

Let me check into doing that for you. I'll be back in the shop Monday morning. Ill give that a shot and see how it looks. What would be your 2 measurements you want? From face of kettle TC to back of 90* and from 90* to end of tube?

Cheers
Jay

I was just making a suggestion for others who really want 5/8". I think 1/2" is fine for me and already have a TC pickup tube on order from you

 

[Dolomieu]

The idea of the tube inside the middle jar is so that if more air was drawn in than allotted for, it would bubble through the sanitizer. If you're using a bucket, you don't need it. Remember that this was designed to use both jar toppers. With a measured amount of sanitizer.

That said it is very adaptable to your desires, so have at it.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

The problem I see is if water was pulled into the mason jar from the bucket and a tube was being used, the tube would be underwater (as shown). If any fermentation happened and CO2 began to push back out it would have nowhere to go as the tube would essentially be blocked at that point.

Note: the tube in the jar is on the bucket side, not the fementer side

You can run this with or without the inside tube. Without the tube, it's one way meaning water can be drawn into the jar but not pushed out. With the tube inside the jar, If pressure increases inside the fermentor due to warming or fementation, the air expands and pushes the water in the jar back to where it came from which in the photo, is the bucket. As for the pressure to push it back to the bucket, that is dependent on the height of the tube going back to the bucket. In my case that is about 1 foot, so the required pressure would be about 1/2 psi. Once you start the flow, it acts like a siphon so the liquid levels will tend to equalize it.

It sounds complicated but its simple in practice.

One thing I've learned as I move to the jar (from a small keg) is that the Jar size required is bigger then I thought and previously posted on this thread. I'm trying to figure out why, but I think it may be due to the increase CO2 capacity of the beer as I crash cool it. I didn't factor that into the original calculation. I may take a shot at revising that this weekend

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it would take a lot more pressure to push the water back out to the bucket. I would like to build one of these but mason jars will not fit inside my fermenter setup. So will need to create some different sized vessels. Looking forward to hearing about your experiences.

 

[day_trippr]

How about a one-piece male camlock to female GHT?
My hoses will thank you!

Cheers!

 

[Jaybird]

How about a one-piece male camlock to female GHT?
My hoses will thank you!

Cheers!

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Cam-Lock-Half-Inch-Male-to-Water-Hose-Spigot.html

Go get em trippr! We have them in stock!

Cheers
Jay

 

[Bassman2003]

Looks great!

 

[Jaybird]

Looks great!

Thanks Bassman!

I love the ones I have at the house! So does my SWMBO

Cheers
Jay

 

[Breault720]

bringing up a request from a couple pages ago, are you able to make "end pieces" for 3 piece ball valves that have either male ends, or camlock QDs? All currently available versions have 2 female ends.

 

[RTL]

I'm trying to figure out why, but I think it may be due to the increase CO2 capacity of the beer as I crash cool it. I didn't factor that into the original calculation. I may take a shot at revising that this weekend

I think this is the missing link. According to the carbonation charts at 34F and 1psig typical wort will be at 1.68 volumes. At these temperatures it looks like we get about 0.1 uptake for each psi added. So going backward we could expect 1.58 volumes at our roughly atmospheric pressure in the fermenter. Which means to total capacity of 20L of fermented wort is over 30L of CO2 to first order approximation.

I only crash from about 4 days to a week or so in the fermenter then transfer to the keg so I doubt we realize anywhere near the full solubility of the wort. But if you take even 10% that is roughly 3L of additional CO2 or air being sucked in, added to the change in volume of the CO2 previously calculated. So a 64oz mason jar is not going to cut it.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

I think this is the missing link. According to the carbonation charts at 34F and 1psig typical wort will be at 1.68 volumes. At these temperatures it looks like we get about 0.1 uptake for each psi added. So going backward we could expect 1.58 volumes at our roughly atmospheric pressure in the fermenter. Which means to total capacity of 20L of fermented wort is over 30L of CO2 to first order approximation.

I only crash from about 4 days to a week or so in the fermenter then transfer to the keg so I doubt we realize anywhere near the full solubility of the wort. But if you take even 10% that is roughly 3L of additional CO2 or air being sucked in, added to the change in volume of the CO2 previously calculated. So a 64oz mason jar is not going to cut it.

It's an interesting problem. I will say my first time out with a 64 oz jar I drew in 32 oz which is 13 more then I expected by neglecting the increase CO2 saturation levels of the wort. So a 64 oz jar worked, at least in this instance but I crashed for 5 just days. Fermented wort still has a lot of CO2 in solution, at equalibrium it's about .75 volumes at 68 F so the delta is 1.58 -.75 = .83 volumes which is still a lot of potential uptake. To use a reasonable sized jar, it seems that limiting time is the key. But I don't think it's critical for typical crash schedules. It's similar to force carbing. I start to think about how long it would take to force carbonated at very low pressures.