Do lagers bother you?

[jabba11]

You don't have to like a certain beer or style but you should respect the ability to produce it. Just like BMC, they make a certain style of beer to an extremely high and consistent degree. I will admit that I have yet been able to duplicate. Alot of people don't like Belgian style beers, sour beers, etc but that doesn't mean they should be bashed. Some people absolutely love BMC and think "craft" beers are awful. I still bet nobody with basic home brewing equipment could duplicate a Tecate or Coors or whatever BMC is dishing out. I think it's funny when some people try to and when they are asked how it turned out they said it is great... " Just like XYZ but with more flavor!" This says to me that it is flawed and they just like the flaw because they made it. I know my first attempt at and ipa, apa, blonde, and witbier all turned out good. However in my 10 or so attempts to make a clean American style lager I have failed IMO. All of them were decent and some were pretty good but none have reached commercial level quality. We as home Brewers will be hard pressed to get even close without extreme filtration of which there are no viable options yet. In the end just brew what you like or just brew what you can because some styles are very hard.

yes with the right equipment you too can reproduce horrible flavorless beers with exacting efficiency and precision. I can respect that

 

[Mainer]

Are you guys familiar with the painter Francis Bacon? He's quite famous. He makes these really horrific self-portraits. They're really disturbing. They take a lot of skill to make. I respect that skill, and the marketing genius it took to get famous off his work. But I find them truly grotesque, and you won't ever catch me trying to copy one, putting one in my house, or lingering too long over one at the museum.

And that's precisely how I feel about BMC beers.

 

[SanPancho]

Are you guys familiar with the painter Francis Bacon? He's quite famous. He makes these really horrific self-portraits. They're really disturbing. They take a lot of skill to make. I respect that skill, and the marketing genius it took to get famous off his work. But I find them truly grotesque, and you won't ever catch me trying to copy one, putting one in my house, or lingering too long over one at the museum.

And that's precisely how I feel about BMC beers.

that's a different point. i think the point most folks have been making is that they'd prefer to never have to drink it, but on a hot day, if that's whats cold, then down it goes. sort of a last resort scenario.

you seem to be saying you can appreciate the technique and effort that goes into it, but you hate it and it will never pass your lips.

and it seems those are generally the two views most folks have around here when it comes to BMC.

but to the original question- does it ruin your insides?

 

[Mainer]

but to the original question- does it ruin your insides?

I can't remember. It's been too long. I think I had an MGD at a bowling alley four years ago.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

And to think....I thought the old school hating of BMC from home brewers was dead and we've evolved to realize they are precision beer makers that we all strive for.

Lets not forget every big brewery started as a small brewery.

 

[bajaedition]

And to think....I thought the old school hating of BMC from home brewers was dead and we've evolved to realize they are precision beer makers that we all strive for.

Lets not forget every big brewery started as a small brewery.

And lets not forget they did not get that big by brewing something no body was buying

 

[303Dan]

I don't get this particular argument that the extremely high consistency, quality control and clean tasting product that these huge companies produce is something that demands my respect as someone who brews beer. You can solve most any problem if you have enough money to throw at it. They spend a tremendous amount of money, time and effort on quality control. So does any food/drink company, by the way, that produces and distributes their product on that scale.

This, by the way, is not intended to be an attack on American Style Lagers and the people who drink them. I just don't understand the argument that I must respect and appreciate these beers because of x and y and z. They do what no craft breweries can do in part because they spend what no craft brewery can spend.

I don't care for the style, personally. But I also don't care for Belgian IPAs and Saisons either, among other more craft centric styles. No difference to me who makes them and how many people drink them or how "hard" they are to brew.

And to get full circle back on topic: no, lagers don't make me sick to my stomach.

 

[DasBierBaron]

I find macro lagers usually do make me feel bad compared to a similar amount of craft beer. It could probably be attributed to the acetaldehyde I always taste in them.

This is what I've noticed as well, particularly bud light, which I seem to taste it in a lot. Really upsets my stomach.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Double post

 

[bajaedition]

Dan, can I get a clarification? Are you saying you cannot respect all the time and effort they go through and money spent to make sure they can brew a beer that comes out the same every time and has extreme quality? or are you saying you cannot respect the style beer?
I may not like the beer, but it takes a lot of effort to make it. I respect the effort use and precision they can achieve.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I don't get this particular argument that the extremely high consistency, quality control and clean tasting product that these huge companies produce is something that demands my respect.

They spend a tremendous amount of money, time and effort on quality control.

AHHHHHH .....this is the definition of respect

 

[303Dan]

Dan, can I get a clarification? Are you saying you cannot respect all the time and effort they go through and money spent to make sure they can brew a beer that comes out the same every time and has extreme quality? or are you saying you cannot respect the style beer?
I may not like the beer, but it takes a lot of effort to make it. I respect the effort use and precision they can achieve.

Of course I can respect the time and effort they spend accomplishing that goal. The same way I respect Dannon Yogurt, for example, for churning out a high quality product with extreme consistency.

I'm just saying that I don't think that level of quality control is necessarily the mark of great brewing talent. And I don't understand why, as a homebrewer, that's something I need to particularly admire and strive for or measure myself against. I take a huge amount of pride in the processes I've developed and the beer I make and I put a lot of time, thought and effort (and money, frankly, much to my wife's chagrin) into how I can continue to improve my beer. But I don't see how that third decimal place in the 99.999% consistency rate (or whatever) is ever a relevant goal on the home brewing scale. And I have no issue whatsoever with their product, other than choosing not to buy it.

That being said, do I think it's a very difficult task on the homebrewing scale using the equipment and processes at our disposal to reproduce that product? Yes I do.

It seems like you feel the need to defend these companies and this style of beer. I've seen you pursuing this line of argument in several threads. That style already owns like 90% of the market. I don't think it needs protecting.

Anyway, all of this is just one man's opinion.

 

[bajaedition]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

 

[303Dan]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

LOL. Okay, I think we're done.

 

[jabba11]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

I wont deny I still drink BMC when its all there is etc. I don't absolutley hate it. Its flavorless fizzy water. Somebody mentioned that they sell a lot of it for a reason. If you research it some youll find out that the reasons Americans drink watered down fizzy lagers has more to do with money and market domination than quality or taste. Its what we are used to. It is impressive that they can make beer with the consistency that they do yes. Much of that consistency has to with automation, equipment, and techniques not available to the average home brewer. Im sure there is a certain level of skill as well in some aspects. That doesn't mean what they are producing is.. good. Bud makes zero peoples lists of best tasting Lager in the world. Brewing is more craft than art really. A guy like Sam Calagione walks a finer line Id say but in general brewing is a step by step process much like cooking. BMC is the Mcdonalds of the brewing world. They make decent fries, people buy a ton of them. Theres hella better fries out there

 

[bajaedition]

I wont deny I still drink BMC when its all there is etc. I don't absolutley hate it. Its flavorless fizzy water. Somebody mentioned that they sell a lot of it for a reason. If you research it some youll find out that the reasons Americans drink watered down fizzy lagers has more to do with money and market domination than quality or taste. Its what we are used to. It is impressive that they can make beer with the consistency that they do yes. Much of that consistency has to with automation, equipment, and techniques not available to the average home brewer. Im sure there is a certain level of skill as well in some aspects. That doesn't mean what they are producing is.. good. Bud makes zero peoples lists of best tasting Lager in the world. Brewing is more craft than art really. A guy like Sam Calagione walks a finer line Id say but in general brewing is a step by step process much like cooking. BMC is the Mcdonalds of the brewing world. They make decent fries, people buy a ton of them. Theres hella better fries out there

funny Part of all this discussion is we all agree that they are not our style of beer
and craft beers are better
but
market trend is a huge slowdown in craft beer gaining market
and an emerging trend of cheap brands like High Life having to increase production to meet demand.
I find that interesting. Another trend is hard liqours and wine sales are growing faster than beer sales.

what I am saying is that what we all want, is often not what the majority wants. It seems that most of America wants fizzy water downed beer, no matter how much we discuss it. Go into any market and look at the beer box, and look at the warm beer selection. Production is driven by demand, it is not like there are no outlets so the fizzy stuff sells because there is no good stuff around. It sells because of the demand for it. And nothing we can say will decrease that demand. No Matter what any of us say, at the end of the day that fizzy water downed stuff outsells craft beer by a huge amount.

 

[jabba11]

craft beer market share is up 7% since just 2011 that's a huge amount all things considered. So much so the large breweries are busy buying up as many as they can take on. it does seem to be slowing. Hell Inbev bought out northern brewer? The market is pretty saturated IMHO and may be due a drawback but craft brewing is here to stay for sure (if it isn't all bought out by Inbev sabmiller anyway).

 

[jabba11]

Like I said .. McDonalds sells a lot fries, that doesn't mean they are anywhere near the BEST fries. They have the facilities and established market share and people have been eating their fries a long time.

 

[bajaedition]

craft beer market share is up 7% since just 2011 that's a huge amount all things considered. So much so the large breweries are busy buying up as many as they can take on. it does seem to be slowing. Hell Inbev bought out northern brewer? The market is pretty saturated IMHO and may be due a drawback but craft brewing is here to stay for sure (if it isn't all bought out by Inbev sabmiller anyway).

Yes it is here to stay, and that is why companies like IN Bev are buying it up, they want to be making the money off of it. It is high profit, it is natural for the big 3 to want their share, why would they shut down high profit production for lower profit production? but its growth has slowed. and fizzy water downed beer is starting to grow again. In October 2016 Miller Coors released that the yearly production of their DISCOUNT beers was 48 million barrels, now compare that to Craft beer producing less than 30 million barrels.

I totally agree with you about market saturation.

this has been a good discusion

 

[bajaedition]

Like I said .. McDonalds sells a lot fries, that doesn't mean they are anywhere near the BEST fries. They have the facilities and established market share and people have been eating their fries a long time.

Funny thing is all our discussion is directly relatable to the burger industry, or the pizza industry or the ............
Life goes on, we have passions so we pursue them

 

[jabba11]

I wonder if these numbers take tap houses into consderation. I see a lot more tap houses opening than traditional "canning or bottling" breweries.

 

[bajaedition]

could not say, I sourced the national brewers Assc. but do not know if they count such places

 

[SanPancho]

dan makes good point. i dont believe that the means justify the ends. high tech or not, BMC is ****ty beer. period. what's the point of unlimited resources and technical prowess if the result is similar to your average friday night urinal deposit?

now, when it comes to BMC, do i drink it? yes. at the rancho, at some concert where its the best available, or if i'm offered it and dont want to offend by refusing. there's a time and a place for everything under the sun.

now as for style, well, lager is delicious. but not BMC. and not Tecate. and having literally been around the world and back i'd say that most mass produced lagers are pretty crappy. if i had the option, i would take a homebrew lager by a decent brewer over a mass produced product. there are a few exceptions, like Bohemia, Hofbrau original, some random delicious beer i had in hungary i can't pronouce or spell, etc. but generally, i think a home brew lager is probly closer to what the style traditionally used to be before industrialization and mass production.

so when you frame it that way, how much respect do the BMC guys really deserve if i would rather drink my own lager? or yours? if you had all the technical resources and scientific knowledge in the world and you used it to make poopie-flavored lollipops, does that demand respect? as the most bad ass, high tech, feces-flavored treat in the world? really?

i used to think it deserved respect. but now i agree with dan. the means do NOT justify the ends. i'll drink it if the time and place are right, but i dont respect it any more.

303Dan you've changed me.

 

[brewcat]

dan makes good point. i dont believe that the means justify the ends. high tech or not, BMC is ****ty beer. period.

Not all of it. I'll take Coors Banquet over a lot of beers. Banquet is good beer.

 

[casualbrewer]

Yeah there are a lot of good "lagers" out there but there are many categories of lager including American and American light. Can you make a good one? Kind of sounds like you just dislike BMC products. What they make pretty much defines those styles completely. The joy of being a good home Brewers is having an idea or style your trying to nail, perfecting the recipe, perfecting the process, and enjoying a beer that you imagined or is perfectly to style. Anyone can throw a ton of hops or malt at something and make it cover up the flaws. Not everyone can make a perfectly balanced to style beer. And whether you like it or not the American lager and especially the light lager categories are the hardest to make flawless.

 

[Mainer]

Dan, can I get a clarification? Are you saying you cannot respect all the time and effort they go through and money spent to make sure they can brew a beer that comes out the same every time and has extreme quality? or are you saying you cannot respect the style beer?
I may not like the beer, but it takes a lot of effort to make it. I respect the effort use and precision they can achieve.

Precision and consistency means they have a great business model; I'm not sure it means they make a great beer.
Wal Mart sells more groceries than any other company in the US. Does that mean they sell the best produce? No, it means they've invested a lot of capital into distribution infrastructure and supply chain management.

 

[Mainer]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you meant.

I do respect it I agree and pursue a fine line of repeat-ability. I am anal like that, I feel that pushing myself to get better is a good thing. I do not judge those who do not, You will also see that a great part of this hobby is everyone rises to the level they want to.

we all have talents of our own, some people become great musicians, others play a few chords on a guitar and that is all they want to do, that is about how home brew is, some try very hard to be very good, others make beer and are satisfied, I can respect that.

Interesting, I *don't* strive for repeatability. I always want to try something new. I don't use fermentation temperature controls, so if this winter is warmer than last, my rauchbier is going to have some fruity notes to it, and I'm okay with that. I *want* my 2017 Baltic Porter to be a little different from my 2016 Baltic Porter. If I'm re-brewing a saison, I might improvise the hop schedule just to see what happens. If I've got some rye lying around, it might find its way into my IPA.

I guess that gets to the heart of the disagreement. Some people approach brewing as a science, others as improvisation. To me, recipes are guidelines and consistency is boring.

 

[bajaedition]

Precision and consistency means they have a great business model; I'm not sure it means they make a great beer.
Wal Mart sells more groceries than any other company in the US. Does that mean they sell the best produce? No, it means they've invested a lot of capital into distribution infrastructure and supply chain management.

and it shows that the American public does not want the best produce etc, they want cheap crap. So walmart sells them what they want.
Now selling someone elses product is not the same as manufacturing a product that is hard to make. Selling someone elses product means you can sell what someone else produces

 

[beersk]

The only beers that bother my stomach are NEIPAs and Witbiers. I blame the suspended yeast. Sometimes totally worth it.

NEIPAs shouldn't be hazy because of yeast in suspension. It's from oats/flaked barley and massive dry hop. If it were yeast, these beers would have a yeasty bite to them, and they most certainly do not have that.

And lagers, we should specify, are as great as ales. If you created this thread to b*tch about macro lagers like Budweiser, then cool. But man are you missing out if you're ruling out the many other German lager styles, etc. out there. Don't blame the yeast.

On another note, you have to give macro breweries credit for consistency and quality control. The smaller the brewery is does not necessarily equal better quality, flavor, and consistency.

 

[Mainer]

and it shows that the American public does not want the best produce etc, they want cheap crap. So walmart sells them what they want.
Now selling someone elses product is not the same as manufacturing a product that is hard to make. Selling someone elses product means you can sell what someone else produces

Sure, sure. I'm just saying that demand is not necessarily the best measure of quality. The big breweries' success is as attributable to their mastery of mass distribution, skill at marketing, and ability to purchase ingredients at volume as to their ability to produce a consistent product.