Do I REALLY need to pay attention to pitch rates???

[forstmeister]

I do not have a stir plate and I'm a grad student on a pretty tight budget... how long should I let the yeast propagate without a stir plate, and could I just use a growler with an airlock on it that I swirl occasionally throughout the day?

I don't use a stir plate either. Just cover the mouth of the growler with aluminum foil (sanitized of course) and give the growler a swirl every time you walk by. I do it for about 24-36 hours and then refrigerate overnight to crash it.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

I don't use a stir plate either. Just cover the mouth of the growler with aluminum foil (sanitized of course) and give the growler a swirl every time you walk by. I do it for about 24-36 hours and then refrigerate overnight to crash it.

Word, so I don't even need to use an airlock?

 

[homebrewbeliever]

Also, I know this is only slightly related, but for those of you that have brewed IIPAs, do you think that a grain bill with around 7% crystal malts has too much crystal malt in it? My last IIPA turned out sweet and I thought it was because it had too much crystal malt in it, but now I am thinking that it was just under-attenuated because I used only one vial of WL Dry English Ale yeast and the OG was 1.096...

 

[Pratzie]

Word, so I don't even need to use an airlock?

No, no airlock. the idea is to get Oxygen into it without getting germies or anything bad. Airlocks don't let oxygen inside.

Most places sell the flasks with a sponge that u dip in star san and just put that in, but if ur using something else or don't have a sponge, a piece of sanitized foil over the top will work well.

 

[forstmeister]

Also, I know this is only slightly related, but for those of you that have brewed IIPAs, do you think that a grain bill with around 7% crystal malts has too much crystal malt in it? My last IIPA turned out sweet and I thought it was because it had too much crystal malt in it, but now I am thinking that it was just under-attenuated because I used only one vial of WL Dry English Ale yeast and the OG was 1.096...

What was the final gravity?

 

[isleofman]

It doesn't on a smaller scale because u can get to the same point with just adding some more DME and one step (if u have the time). But when you get into RIS or IIPA's with an OG of 1.090, or a lager with a mid sized OG but with a large 10-15+ gallon batch, do u really wanna have to use a monster flask and a 6 step, week and a half long build up process for your starter with just one pack?

So you are using the most extreme circumstance 10G - 15G @ an OG of 1.090, of course you would want to use multiple packs then. I doubt most HBs have the ability to ramp up a single liquid yeast pack to that level via starter. Though I can almost guarantee that a HBer who isn't using starters is also not making a beer at a volume of 10G - 15G @ an OG of 1.090.

As long as the yeast is less than a few generations (more based on sanitation), you keep each step of starter at the proper cells per milliliter, each step's OG between 1.030 - 1.040, and you use good sanitation, you will make a nice slurry to pitch.

We also need to take into account that liquid yeast packs/vials start losing viability immediately, no matter how well they are handled. A beer with an OG of 1.052 and batch size of 5.5 needs 200 billion yeast cells. This works when each pack/vial is at 100% (they both contain 100 billion at 100% viability) but that is almost never the case. On the other hand, using a 75% viable pack/vial one could make single step starter @ 1.6 liters, with intermittent shaking, and have the resulting 200 billion cells needed.

I too didn't always make starters, BUT I knew they would create a better end product. I just didn't because I didn't have the gear and I was nervous about sanitation.

All I am saying is please be more informed before you hand out advice.

 

[Yooper]

Bam. Thanks! I'm going to try this. I did have an IIPA that I brewed recently that ended a bit too sweet. I thought it was because I had used too many crystal malts, but they really only made up around 7% of the grain bill which shouldn't be too much (IMO, but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Now I am thinking that it may have just been under-attenuated and I should have used a starter.

An IIPA I make has 5% crystal malt. That's ok, but simple sugars play a part too, as you really want the FG to be 1.012-1.015ish so it's quaffable and not like a barleywine. If it was underattenuated, and over 1.020 or so, it would have a definite sweet note and flavor and be a bit cloying.
One yeast pack would really be pushing it, and I'd expect it to stall out before finishing, especially with a high OG.

I've been brewing for a long time. While I'm a long way from an expert, I really believe that THE best way to improve a brewer's beer is by pitching the proper amount of yeast at the proper temperature and keeping it at the proper temperature. It really does make a huge difference!

 

[MNDan]

A paper towel rubber-banded over the top of the flask works well, too...

 

[homebrewbeliever]

What was the final gravity?

FG was 1.025. Not too bad, but a tad too sweet to drink copious amounts of

 

[homebrewbeliever]

An IIPA I make has 5% crystal malt. That's ok, but simple sugars play a part too, as you really want the FG to be 1.012-1.015ish so it's quaffable and not like a barleywine. If it was underattenuated, and over 1.020 or so, it would have a definite sweet note and flavor and be a bit cloying.
One yeast pack would really be pushing it, and I'd expect it to stall out before finishing, especially with a high OG.

I've been brewing for a long time. While I'm a long way from an expert, I really believe that THE best way to improve a brewer's beer is by pitching the proper amount of yeast at the proper temperature and keeping it at the proper temperature. It really does make a huge difference!

Thanks, Yooper. You have NEVER steered me wrong yet, so I believe you. Yeah, my IIPA finished at 1.025, which was a bit too sweet and more like a barley wine. It was still incredibly delicious, but it would have been much better if it had an FG around 1.015. In the case of this IIPA (again, OG of 1.096), would you have made a large starter or would you have just pitched multiple vials of yeast (I say vials because I am using White Lab's English Dry Ale yeast, which I really like for this beer)?

 

[Kealia]

Take a a look at this video from the Head of Lab Operations at WhiteLabs. I found this to be very interesting. Don't worry if you don't understand it all - you can keep coming back to it as your knowledge increases and you'll "get" more of it each time.

 

[Nomad]

Back in 1990, I popped my favorite cassette, Janes Addiction's Nothing's Shocking, into my stereo, expecting to hear the insane roar of big guitars and Perry Farrell roaring, "Comin down the Mountain," but instead I got treated to the underwater garble of Janes Addiction played over a stretched out cassette loop. I bought nothing but CDs from that day forward.

Last November I decided not to make a starter because I was fermenting a 1.040 Belgian as a step up for a Belgian Dark Strong that was going to clock in at 1.100. After I pitched the White Labs vial of yeast, it had at least 36 hours of lag time before fermenting, chugged along sluggishly,and left yeasty, sour notes in my beer. The beer had such amazing potential. I could taste a classic under that bad fermentation, but it was tainted because of the feeble ferment. I'm sure straight from the bottling line at White Labs or Wyeast, the product is primo, but who knows what can happen on the way to the LHBS.

Cassettes are making a comeback for some reason, but I'll never buy another one, and I'll always make a starter, even if Mr. Malty tells me otherwise

 

[Yooper]

Thanks, Yooper. You have NEVER steered me wrong yet, so I believe you. Yeah, my IIPA finished at 1.025, which was a bit too sweet and more like a barley wine. It was still incredibly delicious, but it would have been much better if it had an FG around 1.015. In the case of this IIPA (again, OG of 1.096), would you have made a large starter or would you have just pitched multiple vials of yeast (I say vials because I am using White Lab's English Dry Ale yeast, which I really like for this beer)?

I'm cheap, so I would have made the correctly sized starter, probably out of washed/saved yeast. (I get about 10 batches out of one vial/smack pack of yeast). Consult yeastcalc.com or mrmalty.com for the correct pitching amount for your batch, based on the age of the yeast. I like mrmalty.com for saved slurry, but I like yeastcalc.com for stepping up starters.

With an appropriately sized starter (assuming a recipe without a ton of unfermentables), I would expect a 1.096 IIPA to end up at 1.015 or so with that yeast strain (83% attenuation, just a bit above its average- I've pushed it even higher with more simple sugars).

 

[cluckk]

In answer to the question about doing a starter without a stir plate, I made them for a long time without one. Most calculators will tell give you volumes for either. One thing I and several others have done is to make the starter and pitch then keep the starter where it is convenient. I would make it in a gallon jug and keep it on the coffee table. In the evening when relaxing with TV, I'd swirl it every hour or so. Whenever walking through the room another swirl. Before bed give it a good long swirl. In the morning do it again. This should give you a good supply of oxygen for a healthy starter.

 

[BoShimTang]

I do not have a stir plate and I'm a grad student on a pretty tight budget... how long should I let the yeast propagate without a stir plate, and could I just use a growler with an airlock on it that I swirl occasionally throughout the day?

Don't use an airlock. Just cover the opening loosely with foil. I do this with Erlenmeyer flasks and then sanitize by baking at 400F for one hour. This might be too much for your growler but you can sanitize the foil in whatever manner you use to sanitize the growler.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

Wow, thank you all so much! I really feel that I have a much better idea about why it is so important to pitch correctly, and I plan to only do so from now on. I do want to be the best brewer I can be, and I feel that I am one step closer now. My next batch, I will use a calculator to figure out how much slurry I will need and then make a starter by swirling it relatively often over 36-48 hours. When I make my next brew, I'm going to save some of my sparge and do what Yooper suggested. You all rock, and I'd be half the homebrewer I am if it wasn't for this community.

 

[kombat]

One thing I'll add is that I noticed a big difference when I added a stir plate to my starter regimen. Before, when I was just occasionally swirling my starter, their fermentation schedule varied wildly. But now that I use a stir plate, I know I'll have a layer of CO2 foam within 12 hours, a krausen within 18 hours, and it'll be completely done by 24 hours. It's remarkably consistent, and makes it much easier to plan a brew day.

 

[pabloj13]

Im not gonna argue that, because all of this is six of one and half a dozen of the other. For me, personally, i'd rather spend another 6 or 7 bucks on another vial and just pitch two into one since my work schedule is in constant flux and I like to plan on making the starter on a Thursday so its ready by Saturday when I brew. Your method isn't wrong and neither is mine, it all comes down to preference, time and the size of the flask ur working with (Dammit, I guess size does matter ).

You're right. It absolutely is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. However, this whole conversation started with:

No, you never need to use multiple packets of liquid yeast; just make a larger starter. I refuse to buy multiple $6 yeast packs out of principle, so I just make bigger starters. Sometimes two stage starters, like 1.5L then 3L.

People don't usually make starters with dry yeast, so yes, use multiple packs of dry yeast when needed.

That isn't always the case either though. Pick up Palmers How To Brew (Print copy, not the online edition), theres a chart there that shows how many packets and how many liters of starter u should use. Granted its not set in stone but is a guide to point u in the correction direction.

There are also a few threads on here about why u should use multiple vials/smack packs instead of just one with a huge amount of DME starter.

Speedyellow is right. You don't NEED multiple packs of liquid yeast. Are there times when it might make more sense to buy multiple packs? Maybe, but that depends on the brewer. I grow my yeast up from a couple billion cells from frozen stocks. To me it is worth a couple bucks worth of DME to have a never-ending supply of yeast. To others it might just be worth $6 to buy another pack. To each his own. However, you don't NEED multiple packs.

 

[Hermit]

A starter is also a 'proofing' stage. You KNOW you have active yeast when you pitch. That is a comforting thing.

 

[Pratzie]

I'm cheap, so I would have made the correctly sized starter, probably out of washed/saved yeast. (I get about 10 batches out of one vial/smack pack of yeast). Consult yeastcalc.com or mrmalty.com for the correct pitching amount for your batch, based on the age of the yeast. I like mrmalty.com for saved slurry, but I like yeastcalc.com for stepping up starters.

With an appropriately sized starter (assuming a recipe without a ton of unfermentables), I would expect a 1.096 IIPA to end up at 1.015 or so with that yeast strain (83% attenuation, just a bit above its average- I've pushed it even higher with more simple sugars).

Again Yooper adds to my knowledge base. Thanks for the yeastcalc.com website. I don't step my starters but if i ever decide to this looks like the best website to use for it.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

You're right. It absolutely is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. However, this whole conversation started with:

Speedyellow is right. You don't NEED multiple packs of liquid yeast. Are there times when it might make more sense to buy multiple packs? Maybe, but that depends on the brewer. I grow my yeast up from a couple billion cells from frozen stocks. To me it is worth a couple bucks worth of DME to have a never-ending supply of yeast. To others it might just be worth $6 to buy another pack. To each his own. However, you don't NEED multiple packs.

Yes, I also agree. This is why I ended up saying "why the hell not," and build my own damn stir plate out of a cigar box for a total of $7. Works friggin' super well too. I also decided to say "why the hell not" a second time and bought Williams Brewing's Oxygenation wand... No more under-attenuated beer for me!

 

[homebrewbeliever]

Soooooo, I hate to revive this thread, but now that I've brewed a few big beers using the proper pitch rate (I used yeastcalc.com to determine the pitch rate), I'm going to make a wheat beer that's going to have a starting gravity around 1.053. Yeastcalc says that I need around 195 billion cells, and both wyeast and white labs (I'll be using a wyeast smack pack for this beer) say that they've got a minimum of 100 billion cells in their packs (I'll just assume 100 billion though to be safe). Should I really make a starter for this beer, or should I just use one smack pack? Yeastcalc says that if I make a 1 liter starter on my stir plate (assuming I start with 100 billion cells), I'll end up with around 220 billion cells. I'm still new to the yeast starter thing, so I am not sure if it would be a good idea to make one for a beer like this...

 

[Yooper]

Soooooo, I hate to revive this thread, but now that I've brewed a few big beers using the proper pitch rate (I used yeastcalc.com to determine the pitch rate), I'm going to make a wheat beer that's going to have a starting gravity around 1.053. Yeastcalc says that I need around 195 billion cells, and both wyeast and white labs (I'll be using a wyeast smack pack for this beer) say that they've got a minimum of 100 billion cells in their packs (I'll just assume 100 billion though to be safe). Should I really make a starter for this beer, or should I just use one smack pack? Yeastcalc says that if I make a 1 liter starter on my stir plate (assuming I start with 100 billion cells), I'll end up with around 220 billion cells. I'm still new to the yeast starter thing, so I am not sure if it would be a good idea to make one for a beer like this...

But assuming 100 billion cells is a mistake. Sure, if you bought the yeast today from the company that made it on Friday and kept it cool, you might have darn near that amount.

But if the yeast is a month old, wasn't kept in the fridge during transport, etc, the viability is not the same. I know mrmalty.com has a place to put the age of the yeast in the calculator to estimate viability. I recommend doing that, and making a starter based on the probably viability of your yeast package.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

But assuming 100 billion cells is a mistake. Sure, if you bought the yeast today from the company that made it on Friday and kept it cool, you might have darn near that amount.

But if the yeast is a month old, wasn't kept in the fridge during transport, etc, the viability is not the same. I know mrmalty.com has a place to put the age of the yeast in the calculator to estimate viability. I recommend doing that, and making a starter based on the probably viability of your yeast package.

Right, and yeastcalc does too, so I am just guessing (I haven't bought the yeast yet so I don't know the "born on" date). Anyway yooper, do you think that its worth making a starter even for a batch that is around this SG?

 

[BrettV]

I have made a starter for every one of my beers that used liquid yeast, and their OGs have ranged from 1050-1070. As I understand, it is never a bad idea to make a starter. Nothing wrong with making sure you have lots of healthy, viable yeast when it comes time to pitch.

 

[Hermit]

I have made a starter for every one of my beers that used liquid yeast, and their OGs have ranged from 1050-1070. As I understand, it is never a bad idea to make a starter. Nothing wrong with making sure you have lots of healthy, viable yeast when it comes time to pitch.

This. It certainly would cut down on the panic threads if people knew there yeast was active when pitched.

 

[Yooper]

Right, and yeastcalc does too, so I am just guessing (I haven't bought the yeast yet so I don't know the "born on" date). Anyway yooper, do you think that its worth making a starter even for a batch that is around this SG?

I think "starter" whenever the OG is above about 1.040-1.044 and using liquid yeast.

 

[tonyc318]

I make a starter on every beer except the GF I make for my wife. You are much better off pitching yeast that is ready for battle! I usually make the starter the night be for I brew. Then usually pitch it while its really active. I've greatly improved my brewing because of this step. My last beer flew out of the keg because my family couldn't get enough. I'm a big fan of starters. Even if the OG is in the 40's. it's not just about having enough cells, it's also about having active, healthy cells.
Yeast make the beer. Make sure your yeast is ready to kick butt.

 

[kombat]

Another vote for the starter. In my experience, it drastically reduces the lag time. A properly prepared starter will take off like a rocket in the main batch, whereas rehydrated dry yeast (or direct-pitched liquid yeast) might sit around for a day or two while I nervously fret over whether or not it's going to start.

Making the wort is the easy part. Proper fermentation is what really makes the difference. Don't take shortcuts.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Another vote for the starter. In my experience, it drastically reduces the lag time. A properly prepared starter will take off like a rocket in the main batch, whereas rehydrated dry yeast (or direct-pitched liquid yeast) might sit around for a day or two while I nervously fret over whether or not it's going to start.

Making the wort is the easy part. Proper fermentation is what really makes the difference. Don't take shortcuts.

While I'd agree that 1-2 days lag time is excessive, we shouldn't imply that taking off like a rocket is a legitimate brewing goal. 10-20 hours is pretty typical when you pitch a good amount of yeast. I haven't seen any evidence that single-digit hours is better, and in fact it might just be worse.