ryantollefson
Well-Known Member
You mention StarSan for inside your flask and stirbar... that's sanitizing no?
I can't speak to Fermcap, haven't really researched it, never used it.
DME + Hot Erlenmeyer = Bad
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You mention StarSan for inside your flask and stirbar... that's sanitizing no?
I can't speak to Fermcap, haven't really researched it, never used it.
kombat
Well-Known Member
I understand where you're coming from... but really... one or two drops per 5 gallons????That being said, I've never used it, but it seems like a great idea.
As I recall, it's 2-3 drops per gallon, not 5 gallons, during the boil. Less during fermentation, I believe. Even still, would you be OK with 15 drops of urine in your beer? Blood? Mercury?
And again, why? So you don't have to clean a pot?
kombat
Well-Known Member
Yes. I'm not sure I understand you're point. Your argument is that you don't need to sanitize, because the boil itself sanitizes things, as if not sanitizing saves time. My point was that you can sanitize your flask and stir bar with StarSan while your pot of DME is cooling in the sink, so there's really no time saving at all from not having to sanitize a flask-boiled wort.
I believe the stir plate also helps the yeast build up their cell walls. It gets more oxygen contact with the wort which should help the yeast build up their reserves. Much like how it happens when you aerate your wort before pitching.
Not really following your logic here Kombat I'm afraid. We are making alcohol to drink. There is no debate. The science is solid. Consumption of alcohol is the cause of a myriad of health concerns. I accept this and still drink.
I use a drop of Fermcap-s in my starters. I do them right in the flask with stir bar and sometimes a whisper of nutrient.
Direct flame, no boil-overs, everthing in one pot, everything sanitized when it's done. Super simple, convenient and without any downside of which I'm aware.
Borosilicate falsks are designed for direct heating and rapid cooling in mind. I never managed to break one this way in science class, nor have I at home.
I simply see no downside to preparing satrters this way. I am perplexed by your doom and gloom approach.
I have taken my flask full of boiling wort and plunged it into a bath of ice water many times. Never a problem. Borosilicate glass is able to withstand rapid temp changes of over 300 degrees F. Going from boiling to ice water is only 180, so there should be no problem.
But if your flask has nicks, cracks, bubbles, etc., in the glass, YMMV. Some of the cheap, "student grade" flasks sold online might be a little dubious.
But if your flask has nicks, cracks, bubbles, etc., in the glass, YMMV. Some of the cheap, "student grade" flasks sold online might be a little dubious.
kombat
Well-Known Member
We know the long-term health effects of alcohol consumption. I don't want to sound like FoodBabe here, but I have no idea what the long term effects of Fermcap S are, or even if there are any. If the only point of adding it to your beer is to reduce the risk of it blowing out the top of an inverted funnel containing boiling hot, sticky liquid, and that same risk can be eliminated entirely by simply using a plain old pot, why not remove it from the brewing process and go with the pot? One less thing to worry about.
Right. And we know what those are.
What are the health concerns of consuming silicone-based anti-foaming agents? Are there even any? Does anyone even know?
Agreed. I have several flasks, but I can't be certain whether or not they're borosilicate. As far as I know, the ones that are don't have "BOROSILICATE" stamped across them in big, white letters, do they? At any rate, I'd rather not risk it. It's 1 pot. Who cares.
The downsides are:
- Unknown short and long term health effects of consuming Fermcap S (or
risk of a dangerous boil-over as a result of boiling in a vessel that gets narrower toward the top) - Risk of flask breakage as a result of repeated rapid heating/cooling cycles with non-borosilicate flasks, assuming you even know for sure whether or not you've got a borosilicate flask
To be honest, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I've been canning my starter wort for years now and haven't had to prepare one on the stovetop in quite some time. Canning is a much more convenient and safer way of preparing starter wort, in my opinion.
Fermcap-S is simethicone (Dimethylpolysiloxane). It's completely safe, tested thoroughly and cleared by the FDA for use in many products, including those for infants. In fact, when I started brewing, I used baby Gas-X drops from Target, until I found out how much more expensive this was than the Fermcap.
I read about the FDA recommending filtering all the Fermcap out of your beer so I rarely use it any more. I have boiled in a flask while using fermcap and had it boil over. Granted, I had the stove on high and was distracted. I also find it a lot easier to add the DME to a pot. If you put it through a funnel into the flask in cold water it clumps. If you warm it up much it makes the DME stick to the funnel.
I am in the process of switching from DME to canning starter worts. The first trial worked well though I had a very weak wort from second runnings and after boiling it to get about 1.035 the canned wort ending up very dark.
I am in the process of switching from DME to canning starter worts. The first trial worked well though I had a very weak wort from second runnings and after boiling it to get about 1.035 the canned wort ending up very dark.
I might have to consider that. Not that boiling wort for starters each time is hard. But it would be nice to have some mason jars of it ready to go and save the time and mess. Besides, I have a bunch of 2-row I could use up.
ryantollefson
Well-Known Member
Looks like a good method described here:
http://byo.com/grains/item/434-canning-yeast-starters
Probably need to give that a shot in the future.
A few things to do in order to render making a starter in a flask forgettable and easy.
Always use the correct tool for the job. A naked flame will likely melt or shatter anything not designed to withstand this. Use a borosilicate glass flask. Plenty of reputable online vendors out there for lab grade gear.
Boil-overs are messy and potentially dangerous. These can be almost completely eliminated by using 1 drop of FDA approved Dimethylpolysiloxane (Fermcap-S). This is a very cheap product and one small bottle should last years. I keep it in the fridge.
Add the correct volume of cold water and DME to the flask prior to any heating. This will prevent water vapor gumming up the works.
Add the stir bar and nutrient if desired. (Don't do this later to hot wort)
Bring it to a boil while stirring every now and then to mix the DME
Heating the wort
Let it boil for your desired amount of time.
Boiling (stir bar in lower left)
Take the flask off the heat, put a foam stopper/tin-foil on top and immerse it in cold water.
Allow it to cool.
A finished starter beer, cooled & decanted, ready to use.
It really is a very unexciting and routine task.
Always use the correct tool for the job. A naked flame will likely melt or shatter anything not designed to withstand this. Use a borosilicate glass flask. Plenty of reputable online vendors out there for lab grade gear.
Boil-overs are messy and potentially dangerous. These can be almost completely eliminated by using 1 drop of FDA approved Dimethylpolysiloxane (Fermcap-S). This is a very cheap product and one small bottle should last years. I keep it in the fridge.
Add the correct volume of cold water and DME to the flask prior to any heating. This will prevent water vapor gumming up the works.
Add the stir bar and nutrient if desired. (Don't do this later to hot wort)
Bring it to a boil while stirring every now and then to mix the DME
Heating the wort
Let it boil for your desired amount of time.
Boiling (stir bar in lower left)
Take the flask off the heat, put a foam stopper/tin-foil on top and immerse it in cold water.
Allow it to cool.
A finished starter beer, cooled & decanted, ready to use.
It really is a very unexciting and routine task.
Hmmm... looks like an article
+1
That would make an excellent article. There may be lots of starter articles out there, but I can't recall having seen any that addressed how to safely and effectively do it all in a flask.
kombat
Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's only FDA approved if you filter it out prior to packaging.
The data is unequivocal and is not new. FDA and WHO both report it to be safe for human consumption. WHO food additives committee met in 1974 reported in 1975 on its use.
THE FDA's site mentions nothing about filtering it out.
It would seem the highest doses are given orally as anti-flatulence meds in adults/children. These doses are orders of magnitude higher than we use as homebrewers.
Here is a very thorough outline of the science for any who may be interested. An interesting read. Lots of animal studies,
And the link on its own for reference
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v06je42.htm
A more detailed outline of a longterm study on rats is here.
To put it bluntly. You can ingest lots of it to stop you from farting so much. Goes in one end and out the other unchanged. No worries.
THE FDA's site mentions nothing about filtering it out.
It would seem the highest doses are given orally as anti-flatulence meds in adults/children. These doses are orders of magnitude higher than we use as homebrewers.
Here is a very thorough outline of the science for any who may be interested. An interesting read. Lots of animal studies,
And the link on its own for reference
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v06je42.htm
A more detailed outline of a longterm study on rats is here.
To put it bluntly. You can ingest lots of it to stop you from farting so much. Goes in one end and out the other unchanged. No worries.
Singletrack
Because it's judgement that defeats us.
I have been mixing the DME with cool water in a pitcher before pouring into the flask. I do this to avoid any clumping problems in the flask, but then I have to clean a pitcher! Is clumping a problem? Is stirring really necessary, or does the boil eventually stir it up? With what do you stir while bringing it to a boil? For me, your article needs one more picture.
I have been mixing the DME with cool water in a pitcher before pouring into the flask. I do this to avoid any clumping problems in the flask, but then I have to clean a pitcher! Is clumping a problem? Is stirring really necessary, or does the boil eventually stir it up? With what do you stir while bringing it to a boil? For me, your article needs one more picture.
I just grab and swirl the flask every now and then. It mixes very easily. Is this needed? I don't know.
I put the flask with water and DME on the stirplate and let it mix for 5 or 10 minutes, it smoothed out the clumps, etc.
Don't worry about it. In organic Chem we'd go straight from the burner to an ice bath. I put my Erlenmeyer right on the gas stove. It's all good.
That's the european style stovetop element that's been around for 50 years or something. They do heat very evenly.
So, has anyone looked at what happens if your aerate your starter wort with a stone bubbler and not get a stirplate? Seems simpler to use equipment and processes you already have and use?
I am sure it works better than just mixing yeast with starter wort and letting it sit but probably not as good as with the plate. I seem to remember that basicbrewingradio did an experiment on yeast starters back in May of 2010 I think.
I think that the yeast on a plate will be getting constant access to O2 while the aerated starter wort will provide them with a bunch at first with the limit being the saturation level. Then again that shouldnt matter as the wort is not high enough gravity to need re-oxytgenating. But O2 encourages yeast to reproduce and use aerobic consumption of the sugars where lack of O2 is what makes them produce alcohol, so maybe more O2 is better.
Sounds like a good plan for an experiment. Make two equal starters (starting) in the same amount of starter wort. Throw one on a stir plate and put the other one (aerated with O2 stone) beside it. Cold crash and measure yeast count/analyze viability/etc
This is what I did before I had a stir plate. It works fine, but the stir plate makes the process faster. It is not just about oxygenating, the stir plate keeps the yeast in contact with more wort by keeping it suspended rather than resting in a cake at the bottom.
Today, I do both. O2 dose at the start and then put it on a stir plate.
Brulosopher
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Much safer to make the starter wort in a kettle, cool, and then pour into the flask. Erlenmeyer flasks are the perfect design for creating volcanoes over high heat.
Definitely a risk, but I haven't had this happen in years doing a few simple things:
1. Use FermCap-S
2. Lower the heat to LOW at the first signs of a boil
3. Watch it.
I wrote about my process in detail last year, if anyone's interested:
http://brulosophy.com/2014/08/06/yeast-starters-some-thoughts-a-method/
Cheers!
1- take a plastic pitcher and dump in dme
2- add warm/hot water and stir it up good with whisk
3- dump it into flask with fermcap, add heat
Easy breezy.
Fermcap can also be used in fermenter- keeps krauzen from going nuts, and increases your hoppiness for a reason I can't recall at present
2- add warm/hot water and stir it up good with whisk
3- dump it into flask with fermcap, add heat
Easy breezy.
Fermcap can also be used in fermenter- keeps krauzen from going nuts, and increases your hoppiness for a reason I can't recall at present
Brulosopher
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This has never worked for me. I've even added a drop while blowing off, it reduced the krausen but I still came home to a mess.
Hmm... Has anyone left the aerator stone in place and given it a slow trickle of pure O2?
