DIY Trunk Line Question: Store-bought wraps, or pro tape?

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grum

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Greetings! I'm a long-time lurker and thread-searcher, but finally came to a dead end on my search for an answer to this question.

I'm building a long draw (16ish feet), glycol colled draft system. I decided I wanted to use EVABarrier lines and duotight fittings wherever possible, so I knew I'd have to build my own trunk line.

I've got all my beverage and glycol lines (3/8" ID PEX) cut to size and I'm about to zip-tie them together and start the wrapping process. I understand that trunk lines are 1) wrapped in a moisture barrier; 2) wrapped in a cold-transfer, aluminum barrier; 3) insulated with appropriately sized pipe insulation; and 4) wrapped in a barrier tape of some sort (duct tape or black barrier tape).

Micro Matic, which seems to be the standard in trunk lines, sells tapes for all of these (Tapes - Installation Accessories).

My question is: is there any reason why I should use those tapes over store bought plastic wrap (like saran wrap), quality aluminum foil (Reynolds heavy duty), 3/4 thick tubing insulation, and then a cheap barrier tape like duct tape? It's $85 or so after shipping and taxes for those three tapes from Micro Matic; alternative media from the store would likely cost about $10. It's truly a negligible difference when compared to the cost of the system, so if there is some solid reasoning for going with the Micro Matic tapes, I'll do so. I mainly don't want to wait for the tapes to arrive.

Thanks in advance for your input!
 
TL;DR go for the Micromatic tape, you won't regret it.

I built my own trunk line following the same procedure as you, except I used copper rather than PEX for the glycol (I didn't have any tight bends). Here's the comparison based on my experience:
  • For the inner layer, there's no comparison between saran wrap and the Micromatic moisture barrier tape. The moisture barrier tape is tough (it's got fibers in it that give it strength) and the adhesive make it adhere very strongly to itself. It will form a much better water-tight seal around your lines. The one place I used Glad wrap was where I have John Guest fittings that attach my BevSeal lines to the stainless lines in my beer tower. I didn't want the pain of peeling barrier tape off the John Guest fittings if I needed to disconnect them, so I wrapped the fittings in Glad wrap, but then taped over that with Micromatic barrier tape to form the actual seal. The Glad wrap was just to stop the tape sticking to the JG fittings.
  • For the thermal-conductivity layer, there's not much difference between the Micromatic foil tape and the standard foil tapes that you get at Home Depot like Nashua Premium Foil Tape. In fact, I've picked up a roll of each and scratched my head as to which came from Home Depot and which from Micromatic before looking at the inside of the reel. You could save a few bucks in shipping by getting this from Home Depot, but I haven't seen anything local that's equivalent to the moisture tape, so if you're ordering from Micromatic anyway, you might as well get theirs. Again, no comparison to Reynolds foil. The foil tape makes a nice firm seal with little air gaps, if you wrap it well, and air is your enemy here. Reynolds foil isn't adhesive, so you'll have a ton of little air pockets.
  • Thermal-insulation layer. For this, just get Armacell foam insulation from Lowes or Home Depot. No need to splash out for anything fancy here.
  • Outer barrier tape layer. The Micromatic barrier tape is basically wide electrical insulation tape. Sure, you could wrap a 16' line with electrical insulation tape, but it would probably cost more, given the width of insulation tape and the amount you need to overlap to get a good seal. The barrier tape gives a much smoother and more robust finish that duct tape, so again I'd go with the professional stuff here.
It's a bit more expensive, but probably not the biggest cost of your whole system. And if you do it right the first time, you won't end up doing it again (which should be factored into your cost).

Hope this helps.
 
  • For the inner layer, there's no comparison between saran wrap and the Micromatic moisture barrier tape. The moisture barrier tape is tough (it's got fibers in it that give it strength) and the adhesive make it adhere very strongly to itself. It will form a much better water-tight seal around your lines. The one place I used Glad wrap was where I have John Guest fittings that attach my BevSeal lines to the stainless lines in my beer tower. I didn't want the pain of peeling barrier tape off the John Guest fittings if I needed to disconnect them, so I wrapped the fittings in Glad wrap, but then taped over that with Micromatic barrier tape to form the actual seal. The Glad wrap was just to stop the tape sticking to the JG fittings.

This is great to know, and the bit regarding the JG fittings is very helpful, as my PEX glycol lines connect to the copper lines in my Micromatic tower with JG fittings.

Thank you so much for your elaborate response. I will definitely go with the Micromatic tape; the last thing I want to do is have to tear this whole thing apart again.

Cheers! :mug:
 
Seen any trunk lines using a copper loop?

The key here is not in the thermal conductivity of the cooling loop material, but the efficiency of the insulation.
If the latter is high enough the losses will be so low that even plastic tubing will convey sufficient thermal transfer to keep the beer cold...

Cheers!
 
Seen any trunk lines using a copper loop?
Actually, yes. Do you know any one looking for some?

20181228_171026.jpg

I have about 70 feet in this roll that I picked up off a liquidation sale of a company that did pro jobs. You should have seen some of the towers that were sold off for less than half of retail.

Cheers!
 
Nah, it is the same stuff that we all used to make our DIY IC's. And you have seen how tight some folks will bend those.

Being bundled with all of the other line makes it even stiffer. All told there are 14 beer lines and 4 copper in that trunk line.
 
Yeah, that'd be a righteous ***** to shove inside wall cavities.
Those are some hella bit bore beer lines. I'm guessing chokers would be required...

Cheers!
 
This is great to know, and the bit regarding the JG fittings is very helpful, as my PEX glycol lines connect to the copper lines in my Micromatic tower with JG fittings.

Thank you so much for your elaborate response. I will definitely go with the Micromatic tape; the last thing I want to do is have to tear this whole thing apart again.

A couple more thoughts: I would also get a roll of Foam insulation tape (or its Home Depot equivalent). I found that pretty handy for insulating around joins. My main join with the beer tower is two pieces of pipe insulation taped together with foam tape and then barrier tape.

Don't forget if you decide to use John Guest fittings to connect to stainless steel lines in the beer tower, then you need the "Superseal" fittings. The normal ones work fine on copper, though. In case you don't already have the pipe insulation, K-Flex Insul-Lock works well and is available with a 1" thick wall (R7). Keeps my beer perfectly cool with no condensation on the outside of the line. No wasted pour, no foaming.

Oh, and get one more roll of barrier tape than you think you'll need! Good luck.
 

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I'm looking to do something similar as I have about an 18-ft run, glycol cooled. Currently using EJ Ultra Barrier Lines that came with my pre-made trunkline. I am finding that I do have to dump the first pour after about 2-3 days sitting in the lines, which is about 9oz for 5/16ID lines. Not happy with those lines.

I have EVA barrier for my gas lines and they are great. I tried googling to see if EVA barrier lines were available in a glycol trunk line, and it brought me to this thread.

@grum , did you end up making your trunkline? Also can I ask if you went with the 5mm lines and how they are pouring for you?

I looked into the Micromatic Trunk Lines, which use Barriermaster Flavourlock. I haven't seen any reviews of them, but a quick search showed that they are 80x better than MDP tubing for preventing gas permeation. Not sure how that stacks up against EVA Barrier.

The main difference vs going with the Micromatic would be cost, and how well the Micromatic protects against O2. Does anyone have any advice or recommendations? I would really like to eliminate the need for dumping the lines prior to the first pour over a more extended period of time.
 
@Spin711 Accuflex make a pre-made trunk line that uses BevSeal Ultra 235 hose for the beverage lines. The product catalog is here:

https://www.accuflex.com/products/bevseal-973.php
I made my own as I couldn't find this cut to short lengths (250' of pre-made trunk line runs over $2000). Some googling might find a supplier that will cut to length.

The advantage of EVA Barrier over BevSeal Ultra 235 is flexibility but since trunk lines aren't that flexible whatever you make them out of, I went with the BevSeal.

BYO Magazine asked me to write up my notes in the post above with pictures as one of their DIY features. It should be in the October issue.
 
@Spin711, I did end up making my own trunk line with EVABarrier line.

I’m planning on posting a full build when things a truly done (chalkboard up, all taps full, remaining tap handles commissioned, tower polished, etc), but I’ve been running the new system for just under a month now.

I went with a trunk line made of ten EVABarrier beverage lines, coiled around two 3/8” ID shark bite PEX lines. The beverage lines themselves were a mix of 5mm and 6.3mm ID tubing, depending on the planned use for the given tap. In order:

Four low pressure (6.3mm) lines for lightly carbonated ales or nitro beers.
Two high pressure (5mm) lines for moderately-to-highly carbonated beers, ciders, or sparkling wine.
1 high pressure (5mm) line dedicated to cider.
1 high pressure line dedicated to kombucha.
1 low pressure line dedicated to cold brew coffee.
1 high pressure line dedicated to seltzer (with water hard plumbed in using the new Kegland carbonation reactor, which is working great)

Since migrating to the new system, I’ve only been able to populate 5/10 taps but things have worked really well so far!

Admittedly, with four mid-late 20s alcohol loving men living in the house (and a few alcohol loving significant others), there aren’t really days where any tap goes 2-3 days without being pulled. That being said, I can say fairly confidently that I have yet to have a foaming issue that was deemed to be caused by gas permeation (there was one instance of overcarbonation and one instance of the faucet not being tight enough on the tower that allowed air in).

Also, it's worth noting, I'm running my glycol loop on hysteresis for chiller (Penguin 1/2HP) and pump (Penguin XL) longevity, despite the fact it's not recommended as it causes fluctuations in line temp, which can lead to foaming. Regardless, I've had pretty great success setting the target line temp to simply be a few degrees lower than my keezer. I may actually just change this to a simple duty cycle at some point (as I stupidly placed a single temperature probe into the trunk line and it ended up being closer to the keezer than the tower, so I get readings that are quite a bit different than the tower temperatures). I'm still fiddling with it.

I'm curious: @duncan.brown, do you run your pump 24/7 or do you run it on some type of temperature control? There aren't any (affordable) submersible pumps that are advertised to be ran 24/7 at glycol temps that also have enough pressure/advertised head to push glycol 18ish feet with a 8-10 foot head.

I followed Duncan's recommendation and used Micromatic's tapes for the entire run, as well as the K-Flex 1" thick insulation. If you're planning on ordering the same insulation, I ordered mine through my local Grainger store, for which there was no shipping for pickup (which, for 18' of insulation, really adds up), so I highly recommend that.

Duncan was 100% right on the moisture barrier tape. Don't cheap out and use some plastic wrap, you'll have a bad time. Micromatic's tape is pretty great. As Duncan mentioned, the foil tape is really not much different than foil tape you can get at home depot / lowes. I actually ran out of the barrier tape (as I didn't follow the Duncan's recommendation), and ended up ordering 2" 3M Black Vinyl Tape from Amazon, last minute; the two tapes were almost identical.

---

I hope this helps! I'm happy to answer any further questions you may have.

I'm also happy to try and keep a line untouched for a few days and see how it pours afterwards, if it helps you make your decision one way or another.

Cheers! (here are some preview build photos)

IMG_2055.jpegIMG_2053.JPGFullSizeRender.jpegEA5DEC26-0A36-4A2A-BE1F-319E80E7B62B.png
 
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@grum great, I'm glad you got it all built. Looking forward to seeing the final pictures.

I'm curious: @duncan.brown, do you run your pump 24/7 or do you run it on some type of temperature control? There aren't any (affordable) submersible pumps that are advertised to be ran 24/7 at glycol temps that also have enough pressure/advertised head to push glycol 18ish feet with a 8-10 foot head.

I just run my Penguin XL 24/7 in my glycol bath. I figure that the strain of turning the pump on and off regularly is probably greater than just leaving it running all the time (plus the glycol keeps it cool). I only have a 3' rise between the pump and my beer tower, so it's not working too hard.

One other thing for @Spin711 to consider: BevSeal Ultra is very difficult to get over barbed fittings without heating it and/or destroying the liner. My beer tower doesn't have barbs on it, so I'm 100% John Guest like @grum's glycol lines. I think EVABarrier is easier to work with for barbed fittings from other posts that I've seen here.
 
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I figure that the strain of turning the pump on and off regularly is probably greater than just leaving it running all the time (plus the glycol keeps it cool)

The only reason why I was hesitant to run mine 24/7 was because of this snippet from the Penguin website:

These pumps work great for our brewing customers who use them in a way that cycles the pump on/off, and occasionally during a cold crash they may run a bit longer. However we do not recommend them for any application that requires the pump to regularly run for extended periods of time without cycling. This includes draft systems, or brewing setups wanting to use a header line and solenoid valves. The occasional 8hrs of straight run isn’t an issue, but 8hr blocks 7 days a weeks is likely going to lead to a fairly short life span.

I'd be interested in asking @PenguinChillers what kind of life span shortage they expect.

I think EVABarrier is easier to work with for barbed fittings from other posts that I've seen here.

My EVABarrier tubing was pretty easy to fit over my tower's hose barbs. Micromatic's towers have a sort of graduated barb to accommodate different hose IDs, though, which helped make the connections pretty simple.
 
@grum I figured it would be OK as there's a review that says:
I own a small startup brewery in the mountains of Colorado. I called to ask Penguin Chillers if they thought their glycol pump would work to pump glycol through a long-draw draft beer tap system to keep the beer lines cool. I mentioned there is a max height increase of 6′ and is overall a 50′ loop. They said “probably not” so I started my search for a pump that would work. I purchased a $100 pump from Amazon rated for sub-freezing temperatures and designed to power garden fountains and waterfalls and is about 3x bigger than Penguin Chillers’ pumps. That big pump did absolutely nothing and was unable to pump the glycol through even half the system. I decided to test a Penguin Chillers pump since I use them to chill my fermenters and lo and behold it pumped the glycol through like it was nothing. The pumps are not only powerful, but tiny.

You do need to keep an eye on them because from time to time they will stop pumping and start “choking” but if you leave them alone (or if you need it to work right then, take them out of the water to let it breathe for a split second) they start working again.

My Penguin XL has been running continuously since mid-June and I haven't even seen any signs of the choking that the reviewer comments on.

I guess @PenguinChillers' response about underpromising and overdelivering with these pumps is right.
 
@grum I figured it would be OK as there's a review that says:


My Penguin XL has been running continuously since mid-June and I haven't even seen any signs of the choking that the reviewer comments on.

I guess @PenguinChillers' response about underpromising and overdelivering with these pumps is right.
Aha! Perhaps this just isn't a case that the pumps were tested for.

Well, fingers crossed for both of us! Both our systems seem to be working great so far. Now I'm tempted to keep my system on a cycle so we can compare the longevity of our pumps under our different cycle patterns (although my increased loop size and rise are factors that make the comparison fairly unequal)
 
Well, fingers crossed for both of us! Both our systems seem to be working great so far. Now I'm tempted to keep my system on a cycle so we can compare the longevity of our pumps under our different cycle patterns (although my increased loop size and rise are factors that make the comparison fairly unequal)

Sounds good. I'll update this thread if my pump has any issues.
 
@grum and @duncan.brown Thanks for the feedback and info! I actually just read your writeup in the BYO October issue. Very nice.

I won't be going as far as grum did with sizing of different lines based on different beverages, as I like to swap out beers, ciders, and seltzers depending on the season. I guess one carbonation level is working, but not as ideal. Grum, did you run calculations on each line?

As far as the lines themselves, I was looking for an already built Micromatic trunkline or similar Bevseal as the EJ Ultra Barrier lines stale rather quickly. But your writeups definitely make it a lot easier to DIY with all the materials you explained. At $16/ft for the Micromatic trunkline, it seems as though the DIY would be a lot cheaper?

I also run my penguin XL pump with a Duty Cycle of 1 minute on, 5 minutes off. DIY glycol chiller set to 28F (kicks back on at 35F) for an 18-ft run is working well. I had to exchange my penguin pump when I was running it continuously, and it threw out more heat causing my DIY glycol chiller to cycle on more frequently. I do think I had a defective pump from the start however, as it also seemed to have issues starting up as I remember. New one hasn't had any issues cycling it on as described above.
 
I actually just read your writeup in the BYO October issue. Very nice.

Thanks!

I won't be going as far as grum did with sizing of different lines based on different beverages, as I like to swap out beers, ciders, and seltzers depending on the season. I guess one carbonation level is working, but not as ideal.

I use jumpers for different pressures. I use a John Guest straight through connector and then add segments of BevSeal depending on the line length that I need for a given carbonation pressure. I only need this for very highly carbonated beers, though, as I have flow control taps.

At $16/ft for the Micromatic trunkline, it seems as though the DIY would be a lot cheaper?

I'm not convinced that the DIY is significantly cheaper than the Micromatic trunkline, if all you need is a short run from a keezer to a single beer tower. Since I was also adding a beer engine and flow meters, the ends of my line were customized as well, so DIY gave me the flexibility to do that. Here's my rough pricing:

Foam insulation $21.20 for 72"
BevSeal Ultra $104.48 for 500' (20.8c/foot)
Copper $24.45 for 20' ($1.22/foot, but you could do it cheaper with the PEX that MicroMatic uses)

So a 6' section would cost $21.20 + 6 * 2 * $1.22 (copper) + 6 * 8 * 0.208 (BevSeal) = $45.82

Which is $7.63/foot. However, then you need to factor in the cost of the tapes, which are essentially a fixed cost as one roll is way more than you will need.

Aluminium Tape $25.99
Moisture Strapping Tape $26.53

So a 6' section would be $16/foot. a 12' section would be $12/foot, and so on. Plus you need enough barrier tape at $14.95 a roll.

Using PEX instead of copper would drop the price by $2/foot, though.

Don't forget to factor in the time as well!
 
Hey @Brew_Dude41 I'm from the Indianapolis area and I wanted to see if you still had that trunk line you posted above and if so how much you would want for it? Would you be willing to sell 35-40 ft of it? Thanks!
 
My Penguin XL has been running continuously since mid-June and I haven't even seen any signs of the choking that the reviewer comments on.

I guess @PenguinChillers' response about underpromising and overdelivering with these pumps is right.

Well after two years of continuous operation, the Penguin pump in my long draw system finally failed. This was actually a regular Penguin pump, not the XL. I'm going to replace it with an XL and keep a second on hand as a spare.
 
My @PenguinChillers XL pump has now been running 24/7 for over a year with no problems.
That pump is a beast! I have it ( standard size, not the XL) running glycol through my beer tower on a 50′ loop with an 8-9′ height increase on an 1/2″ line and it does the job remarkably. I had my doubts when I got the package. The thing is so small, there was no way its could manage that task. Plugged it in and the glycol started circulating immediately.
It’s on a wifi connected outlet to program it for my normal hours of use and to prevent the pump from running 24/7.
 
I built my own trunk line in a 'Y' configuration to feed six beers, from two Komos kegerators to the beer tower. It has been in operation for two years now and overall I am happy with its operation. Using a lot of experience here on the HBT forum, I decided to use a flexible copper core with the six product lines taped to the copper core so the barrier line was in close contact with the copper along its 12-13' length. I used a vapor barrier and foam insulation.
The trunk line extends up the tower where it is split left/right for three taps each side.
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I decided to use plastic pipe for the return lines. I do not use glycol. I would like to use glycol but the additional expense, and noise in the family bar was not justified. Instead, one of the eight kegs in the two Komos kegerators is full of water with a small submersible pump in it. I have it running more or less 24/7 and it is on an internet switch so it is easy to cycle it or turn it off.

The beer temperature is around 40F for a full pint and very drinkable for a taster/flight size glass. We do a lot of flights and no one has complained that the beer is warm.

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Paul
 
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