DIY glycol chilled plastic conical fermenters

[TrickyDick]

I found some 15' lengths. Bought three. Have an STC-1000 I bought for building a dry cure chamber, that's not been started yet. I may borrow that for when I want to heat. Maybe use some of my leftover temp probe panel connectors and then I can easily use the same thermocouple for doing heat or cool. I don't think The BCS as wired in this application is capable of doing both heating and cooling control. Plus, I don't have relays for the heat cord, and would have to re drill control panel case to try and modify at this point. Just as easy to hookup one fermenter to an STC the few times I imagine I will want to deliberately heat one. Though might be nice for doing diacetyl rests if I ever wanted to. Ok, now I'm just rambling.

TD


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[calebstringer]

This maybe BCS v4.0 specific, but this was posted by JonW in the ECC forum

 

[staffordj]

Who has successfully add a heating component to theirs without using the reservoir with aquarium element for heating?

Check out my previous post: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/di...al-fermenters-413406/index56.html#post6066344

I used flexwatt. Works great to bring it into the 70's when the weather is cold. The heat tape is supposed to stay under ~90F, so it may be able to bring it up to 80F as long as the ambient temp is not too low. I haven't gone above 74F yet.

 

[TrickyDick]

I finished up the plumbing tonight....FINALLY! Need to apply some insulation still.

I am thinking about going over to stainless conicals I found at bru-gear.com. very nice looking and comes with option for through the lid chilling input. sealable. $450 ea. only 14" diameter, but I think I have come up with a workaround to get them mounted to my stand with minimal ugliness. Only caveat is that they aren't currently in stock....

I still need to finish up the wiring: connecting all the thermowells to the input sockets on the controller box, and add the sheathing to make it look pretty and tack it down. The wooden board I added for mounting the PEX tubing to will make a handy mounting point for the wiring on the reverse side.

The controller box itself is nearly done. I still need to finish the connections to the driver board and BCS from the thermocouple inputs and ball valves inputs that are case mounted. I also want to run the BCS off the same voltage source as the rest of the DC stuff and step down the voltage with a resistor array (yeah, its gonna be ugly). This seems to be the only way I can obtain a common ground with the driver board, and the rest of the system.

Going to just wrap the lizard cord around the conicals and leave for now. not sure if I'll ever use them, but be nice if I ever need to heat. Will wrap with the insulation after that.. though I am thinking about saving these items for the stainless tanks so I don't have to buy again.

Still don't have the racking arms installed. one of three is out of spec and the racking arm will not fit. replacements on backorder.

Two tanks still need the inner lip removed and the tops prepped with silicone treatment. Only one lid has all the fittings installed so far. The tanks have all the stuff installed (except racking arms).

Have not yet installed the coolant coil to the finished lid, but all the bends are ready for immediate attachment whenever.

Seems like there is gonna be a liquidation sale going on here soon of leftover parts.

I have plenty of PEX tubing left for another person to do this project, which packet gave me for free (Shipping incl!) Ready to "Beer it forward" to the next person, along with whatever spare PEX fittings I have (which ain't much). I need to get it finished and leak tested before I'm able to part with anything just yet however.

It's starting to look pretty good overall. Can't wait to begin using it! I'll post some pics when I have more time, and maybe as I make some more progress. For now it look the same except with some tubing sticking up through the deck and some CamLock fittings at the ends.

TD

 

[wasitim]

So I may have stumbled onto something accidentally regarding how to heat the conicals.

Somewhere along the line, I had set up fermenter 3 to come back on if there was a power failure. I also had used the typical ladder logic where the pump is always configured to be on when any of the fermenters call for chill.

The problem is that I didn't ensure that the glycol chiller was enabled to come on at power up after power failure.

So, think about it.
The power came back on.
Fermenter 3 process powered up.
Since I had a set point of 65 on fermenter 3 and the ambient was 70, it called for chill immediately and the pump came on.
Since the glycol chiller wasn't required to be on, the pump ran and generated heat.
Eventually, it got the glycol boiling to the point where it spilled out of the cooler!.
Luckily, I caught it before it evaporated all of glycol.

Unfortunately, I didn't figure out what caused this the first time. Yeah there was second time. Yesterday I went down and found 15 gallons of Weizen at 115F. Decided to analyze more closely and found the issue described above. The beer was 75% fermented so it will be interesting to see where it ends up. I had it fermenting at a nice cool 58F until this point. The power outages were attributed to being on a GFCI controlled by a bathroom plug that was tripped.

So this has me thinking. It wouldn't work when I have multiple fermenters filled with differing heat/chill needs, but, if I need to bring the beer above ambient, it seems I could figure out a way to set the logic up such that running the pump without the chiller (air conditioner) running, I should be able to control the glycol in such a way that it heats the fermenting wort. The pump obviously adds a sh*t ton of heat to the system.

Gotta run to work and will be thinking on this for a bit but I'd appreciate others feedback on the idea.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmm..

Interesting.

Question, I know we here like to talk about "glycol". It seems that there are a variety of "glycols" available. The food grade stuff that is harmless to ingest in small quantities is what we want to use. What is the full chemical name? I thought I was sure it was polypropylene glycol, but it seems it might simply be propylene glycol. I believe these are two different compounds, and not sure that they have the same chemical properties. I took some leftover food grade USP polypropylene glycol from a partially full 55 gallon drum used to fill the chiller for the MRI install at work. It was leftover that we had already paid for and would have been disposed of. I have the gallons. For my reservoir, I need two gallons. Plus I'll have leftover just in case I have a spill or something.

So in looking into the boil point on "glycol" I discovered that I didn't know if polypropylene glycol and propylene glycol are really the same thing. Does anybody know if I can safely use the polypropylene glycol instead of the propylene glycol?
I can't find much about PPG, and starting to wonder if I should attempt to verify if my stuff is PPG or PG before using.

Regardless, I know the PG and PPG are flammable, so I would probably not want to use it in a system where it's going to be boiling.

TD


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[wasitim]

Well, we'd never want to boil it. That was an accident. But we could be talking about warming it to the high 70s.

 

[TrickyDick]

Pics of latest progress. I've temporarily removed the actual conicals.

TD


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[TrickyDick]

Leak tested and had some leaking on the output side of the cooler fitting with pressure gauge and tee. Not tight enough. Will have to disassemble to re tighten since I can't easily get a wrench with enough torque with it installed. No PEX leaks. Guess those crimps all turned out good. I couldn't really understand the point of the GO-NO GO tool. Anyways. Turns out my PG solution is propylene glycol 40%. What freeze point do I need protection down to? I have basically an 8 gallon cooler, minus the space occupied by the hardware/pump/condenser. I have a photo from the label on the drum. Turns out we still have over 60 gallons on site. I have only three gallons at home, that all my container would hold.

Here is a picture from the drum that says how much I'll need as a percentage of volume. I am starting to think just use 100% of the 40% glycol. Don't know how cold the condenser coils get.

Need another wrench to tighten the SS coils onto the compression fittings, then I'll have one conical done (except for the dip tube because that's the conical with the bad fitting. Hopefully I'll be finished by the end of the week and testing it out. Key word here is hopefully.

TD



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[TrickyDick]

OK,

needed more pipe insulation, but got the plumbing all done. For some reason, I can't get a complete seal on the Tee that the pump output goes to, despite putting it in a vise and using a wrench with all my might, and plenty of teflon. Drips a teeny bit, I might drill another hole in the lid for the coolant to find its way back inside rather than fight it (for now anyway), but really annoying. Otherwise no leaks.

Have one Conical all done except for the insulation and the dip tube because of the out-of-spec bulkhead. Have the SS cooling coil all installed and tightened up. Have the AC and pump and valve wiring all done (realized I mounted the mini cable outlets into the control panel the wrong way.... need to remove and re-install.) Have a harness for the valves all done and sheathed.

Need to finish up wiring the panel external plugs/connections to the components on the control panel.

Reason I'm posting, as that I seem to recall some issue I was thinking about the BCS power and the Driver Board power source.

The BCS uses 6 volts, the driver board uses 12 volts, the PSU in the panel is a 12 volt. I think that the driver board will wire the +12VDC to the PSU output, and the Ground will actually go to the negative supply of the PSU, not a chassis ground. Was thinking that I should make a simple voltage divider to split the 12vdc into 6 volts and run the BCS from the PSU not the wallbrick adapter. this would give the BCS a common ground with the driver board and seems to make better sense from an electrical theory pov. I'm no electrical engineer though. I'm sure that it'll work fine with the wallbrick instead.
Just wanted to get some input/feedback on this.

Also wanted to ask how much low temp freeze protection I need. It'll matter how much coolant I'll need. is 10' F enough?

Hopefully I'm done with at least one conical control (and everything working) by the end of the weekend. Been thinking about switching over to SS conicals such as the ones at Bru-Gear, with through-the-lid coolant lines. Too bad I've got 19" holes for the plastics already, cause these are much narrower. Gonna get the plastics working first and then see what I think.

TD

 

[bruteforce]

Great looking build. Good luck on getting the rest of it all squared away!

 

[IslandLizard]

Looks like you're getting there with this build. :awesome!:

According to the chart you've posted, this particular Propylene Glycol product, straight up at 40%, will start to freeze below -9°F. I have absolutely no clue what "burst protection" means in that respect.

 

[Chrisl77]

Burst protection means it will freeze but not solid it gets to the consistency of a slushy.

 

[TrickyDick]

Need more help with wiring. (edit- found the answer! Its in and odd spot on the brewers hardware page - bottom left "Instructions" at main page, then gives links for various components. Turns out that for me, this is the black and red conductors needed.)

The temp probes from Brewers Hardware have three conductors: Red, White, Black. I know that in Packet's original instructions, that he only wired two conductors. Which ones are they, and does polarity matter (I don't think it does).

Can't really finish up until I find out.

Went ahead and ran the ethernet cord through the floor. what a PITA it was to fish that line...

Going to finish up the internal control panel wiring as much as possible today. Think that I'm going to leave the WallBrick Power supply for the BCS alone. I'm having a hard time getting correct volt readings from my voltage-reducing circuit.

After that, going to work some more on the conical lids. Still have two to go.

Home stretch...

TD

edit #2- Have done a lot of work today. Might be able to fire it up tomorrow. Only have one conical all setup (minus insulation), others still need some work, mostly on the lids. None have the dip tubes installed yet. At this point, other than the conical stuff, its mostly wiring up the temp probes inputs and ball valve outputs from the internal control case connections onto the driver board and BCS inputs. Probably need another 3 gallons of the 40% glycol, right now I have only 3 gallons + 2 gallons water - cooler holds a little over 8 gallons minus the plumbing, pump and condenser displacement. I'm not sure where that winds up on the chart, but I'm sure its not protected from freezing yet. Won't be able to get more until Wednesday. Will post more pics soon.

edit #3- Finished up the wiring. Need to neaten up the temp probes a bit yet. One concial is done enough for testing purposes. Going to clean it, then fill with some water and then ready to fire it up for the first time. I nabbed the MAC address off the faceplate of the BCS controller and used that to reserve an IP address for it on my network so I'll always know where it is. Checked against the client list to ensure the one I picked was available. I'm sort of worried that I screwed something up and a bit ambivalent about plugging it in for the first time. It is ready to plug in and test now though. Hopefully I can finish up with all the insulation and bang out the last two lids before the end of the weekend.

 

[TrickyDick]

Powered it up. Nothing blew up. Oddly all ball valves opened. I referenced the printouts from plasticconial, and also checked the site. Seems I had my driver board wired GND to the 12vdc- bus. Not sure why I did this. However, I think this is one of the reasons I was trying to run the BCS off the main PSU in the control case. Anyway, in my printout of the original instructions, it said to run ground to chassis ground, then the website said to wire to the BCS GND. So I ran it to the BCS GND, and the ball valves closed.

I am not getting any temperature readings on any of the temp probes, and I think because of this, I am unable to get anything to function. Need to double check my wiring, though I am pretty much sure that the correct pins are soldered to the connectors on both sides. I used the same type connecters as packet, but mine don't have the rectangular faceplate, they're just round. Brewershardware said which conductors to use, which I did, and that there was no polarity. I ended up wiring them all the same anyway in terms of polarity. I'm not entirely sure why all four aren't working. I am thinking its the wiring because that's all that makes sense.

I have the LED temp displays for the three conicals. I found the appropriate settings to enable them and to set the correct addresses. Still I get no display. My units are different than what I've been able to find documentation on. Basically there are four connectors and they all daisy chain. two connections are for power, and two are for data. the two data connectors connect to EXP0 and EXP1 on the BCS. In all the pictures and even the manual, the data connectors on my PC boards have the two data channels flip-flopped, so I flip flopped the connections into the BCS. I think they aren't working because the temp probes aren't working.

Would the lack of a temp probe prohibit me from running the AC in manual mode? I can't get it to turn on. I triple checked the wiring and all appears correct. Wondering if its (again) the temp probes?

So far only have one conical all setup and ready to test. How are folks keeping their temp probes from sliding out from the thermowells? Do I need to use and thermal paste or anything to ensure proper contact?

My firmware is 3.7.0. I see there is a new F/W version, but reluctant to update it until I can at least get a few things working. Probably need to do some reading up on the BCS operations as well. I thought about downloading packets config file, but so far I haven't.

Not looking like Its going to be done by the end of the weekend, as I had hoped. I have to build a frame for my box fan to dry my homegrown hops, which are nearing harvest time.

Any suggestions on troubleshooting, aside from checking the temp probe wiring?

TD

hmm- after a little investigation, seems I might have received the incorrect probes from brewershardware. Maybe I ordered the wrong ones. Invoice online doesn't match up the right SKU. Says mine are tppt1006. Need to check my packing slip and hardcopy, and the packaging material. Might explain my problems. The instructions description of the probes doesn't seem to match up the actual physical probes I have though. fun fun fun

Edit- Yep, have the wrong probes. What a dunce! Looks like mine are the Ptd100 RTD probes, not the BCS 460 probes. Dunno how I managed that goof up. Anyways, I re-wired them to the connectors using the correct conductors (black and white, not the black and red like the BCS probes use). Now I just need to find the fudge factor numbers to display the correct temp. right now it says my glycol bath is over 300º. Might be easier to return them, but I'm carrying on to see if I can get them to work. Seems they could even be a few bucks cheaper.

http://forum.embeddedcc.com/viewtopic.php?t=356&f=17 so much for that idea. RTD's aren't supported.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Great thread Packet. I was thinking of doing a single fermenter setup as I have a 14 gallon Fermenator sitting unused that would make good use of a setup like this but simplified. Appreciate the inspiration...

 

[TrickyDick]

Question- when you are using the blow off tubing as an airlock, and let's say brewing an ale, when you cold crash, will it pull water from the blow-off container into the conical?

TD


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[Komocabo]

I completely remove the blow off tube and cover with sanitized foil. Cheap, effective, and no chance of blow-off water entering the fermentor

 

[calebstringer]

Question- when you are using the blow off tubing as an airlock, and let's say brewing an ale, when you cold crash, will it pull water from the blow-off container into the conical?

TD


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I completely remove the blow off tube and cover with sanitized foil. Cheap, effective, and no chance of blow-off water entering the fermentor

Yes! and even covering with foil, you will still suck in oxygen....The best way to cold crash is under positive pressure.

 

[Komocabo]

That is true. However, were talking small amounts of O2, and you still have a cozy blanket of CO2 sitting on the beer. Positive pressure sounds expensive. Just another way to keep it simple IMO

 

[TrickyDick]

positive pressure is cheap. TC to MPT fitting, Coupler, and a 1/2" to flare nut fitting.
But the devil is in the detail. What exactly are you supposed to be doing while cold crashing with the pressure, carbonating? I don't think my plastic conicals will hold pressure for carbonation, maybe 1 psi, but I'd worry I'd just be leaking CO2 into the atmosphere. I have not been able to test mine for air pressure.. yet... I built one of those rigs to pressurize my conicals, or to move beer with gas if I wanted to. When I've connected to the conical, I've not been able to determine if it'll hold airtight or not. I supposed this is my next step - going to make a big mess spraying down with soap solution though. Better do it before I get my insulation on though.

TD

 

[ejluttmann]

I just started my glycol chilled plastic conical fermenter build, using the details from http://plasticconical.com/glycol-chiller ... today I just noticed that plasticconical.com domain name has expired, which is a bummer. I'm sure I can find the info to continue within this thread, but wondering if there was another URL that contained the same details as plasticconical.com?

 

[TrickyDick]

Might be cached on google. I'd check quick!

I have most of the pages printed out, but not all of them, and might have some cached in my browser. I will try and save whatever I can for any who is interested, possibly as a large PDF. Not sure. Packet has been pretty scarce here lately.

I think most people have modified the original plan in building their own. I know that I will have lots of leftover parts and fittings, and others that I ordered the wrong part, or not enough. It's a large list of stuff to build it all out.

Mine still not done. Awaiting new temp probes because I ordered the wrong ones, and nothing will work without those. Otherwise really just needs the insulation finished, and the lids on two of the three conicals finished, and the dip tubes installed (and one bulkhead swapped out). Have most of the BCS programmed and all wired to my network.

I'm planning to convert to stainless conicals. I am going to get the plastic ones going for now though, and see how they perform. There may be a cheaper conical option for you in the future. I'll post it if/when my plastics are available. This thread really should be just about all you'll need though. The parts list is basically from only a few places. Let us know what step you're on and I for one will be happy to help.

TD





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[staffordj]

I had another near incident with my coils last weekend. Previously, I had one of the compression fittings pop off when cleaning the coils. Turns out that the coils were filled with glycol and disconnected and the temperature change caused the liquid in the coil to expand. This past weekend, I tried to connect to the coil while the pump was running. After I got one of the quick connect fittings on, I could not get the other one on. I think the pump pressurized the coil and made it so you could not push down the other spring valve on the quick connect fitting. I ended up running cold water and eventually hit it with a hammer before it released the pressure. I am trying to figure out if there is a way to make this foolproof. One idea is to have the program open the valves after the pump turns off so the glycol can drain back. This requires that the outlet tube is above the liquid level so that air can be pulled in. Otherwise, here are a couple of tips:
-Manually drain the coils immediately after you disconnect them by depressing the valves and drain into the reservoir.
-Make sure the valves are closed before disconnecting/connecting the coil to prevent pressurizing by the pump.
-Don't allow the disconnected coils to heat up unless they have been drained

Any one else have issues with this, or have any ideas to prevent it?

 

[ejluttmann]

Thanks for the cache suggestion ... I was able to get what I needed - really just looking for parts links. I'm rather far into the build, and just wanted to look at the links for the insulation. I may look into upgrading to stainless conicals in the future too, but not too soon if the plastic one work well enough. I was lucky enough to inherit an Aquarium Cooler from my brother that he had sitting in his garage for far too long - so the cooling part was easy to setup. Also, I'm going to use three STC-1000+, each one will be used to control the temp on a singe conical - I might replace this with an Arduino solution down the road but for now the STC-1000+'s will work fine.

 

[calebstringer]

The text is all here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130725111031/http://plasticconical.com

But it doesn't seem that any of the pictures are..

 

[packet]

Hey Guys,

Had no idea this thread was still going on. Yeah, the domain is shut down. I'm in the middle of moving from Washington to the Bay Area and with real estate prices, there's no space for the fermenters. I can try to answer the questions you guys have though.

This is where I got the insulation for the conicals:
http://www.thefoamfactory.com

Regarding the temp change in the coils:
If you disconnect the coils while they're cold, the water heats up while you're filling the conicals and it makes it near impossible to reconnect the fittings due to the increased pressure. What I ended up doing was hooking up the spray ball to the airlock fitting and using that for CIP. Leave the outgoing side of the coils hooked up to the system and the pressure equalizes. once you're ready to fill the conical, disconnect everything and leave the coils in a bucket of water. Since they were ~120 degrees when you unhooked it, there's no pressure differential to deal with.

The other option is to just leave the coils in cold water while you clean, or drain a tablespoon of glycol out of the coils.

 

[eaglerisingbrew]

Could you post the webpage where you got the pieces for your racking arm? I remember it wasn't from Brewer's Hardware...

Also, any plan on restarting the website? I linked to you off mine and am wondering if I need to remove the link. Thanks.

 

[packet]

Could you post the webpage where you got the pieces for your racking arm? I remember it wasn't from Brewer's Hardware...

Also, any plan on restarting the website? I linked to you off mine and am wondering if I need to remove the link. Thanks.

I believe I got most everything for the racking arms from here:
http://www.stainlessbrewing.com/

Web page may come back in a different iteration at some point, but with everything going on in my life at the moment, I have to drop some stuff.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hey thanks for the thread Packet! Best of luck with the move and presumably job changes.
I'm at about 99% complete now. Some bone-headed temp probe orders has me sidelined until I can correct. Looking forward to testing it out in the next couple weeks.

TD