Quantcast

Distilling.. Legal...?

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
Start your research now:)

It takes dedication and devotion but it's definitely worth the investment of time to learn not to get hurt or hurt anyone else.

Homedistiller.org/forums Has by far the best wealth of knowledge of any other site. Anyone who may be interested in home distilling should do alot ALOT ALOT of reading before jumping in heels down.

I've had the pleasure of meeting some fine folks and tasting some of their spirits and will say that if you invest the time/research you can make a quality spirit unmatched by the big commercial boys.
 
OP
Ryue

Ryue

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
131
Reaction score
24
Location
Bremerton
I will definitely do a lot of research prior to actually distilling, I have come accross some good books too that I may buy.

Although I think I had a light bulb moment, but someone witth experience should tell me if I'm wrong.

Instead of having to make and ferment a whole lot of mead to get a high ABV of similar flavor, what of I made a simple, flavorless moonshine wash, distilled to whatever desired abv, then used said distilled alcohol i. Replacement of the water I would normally use in my mead recipie?
For example:
5 gallons moonshine,
12 cups elderberries
30 cinnamon sticks
Etc.
Back sweeten with honey and then age in my oak barrel previously used to age my mead.
Seems like it would turn out? Or am I wrong?
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
cinnamon- a little goes a long way in high proof likker.
Maceration of fruits are a very good way to impart flavors in a spirit, removing the fruit is desired before aging in a barrel imo

I'll go through some of what I know later, still at work now but had a few moments.
 
OP
Ryue

Ryue

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
131
Reaction score
24
Location
Bremerton
cinnamon- a little goes a long way in high proof likker.
Maceration of fruits are a very good way to impart flavors in a spirit, removing the fruit is desired before aging in a barrel imo

I'll go through some of what I know later, still at work now but had a few moments.
Thats true about the cinnamon. I put a lot in my mead must, but alcohol definitely absorbs flavors faster than water.
Would you suggest a specific way of making the wash? I haven't done a whole lot of research yet, but I believe its just sugar, right? Would pure raw cane sugar be a good choice?
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
"If" I were to do it, I would not do just a sugar wash as it's harsh as hell, if you do decide to us just sugar I would use no more than 1.5 lb per gallon of wash and add 1/2 cup boiled bread yeast to it for nutrients as white table sugar has none and also something to buffer, keep a 5-5.5 ph, "oyster shells" at the beginning of a wash will buffer enough for a 4-5 day ferment.

DO NOT USE TURBO YEAST!!!! lol

If using bread yeast, keep the fermentation above 85°f
 
OP
Ryue

Ryue

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
131
Reaction score
24
Location
Bremerton
Also, is a still with a thumper a better option, or should I just stick with a basic still?
 
OP
Ryue

Ryue

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
131
Reaction score
24
Location
Bremerton
"If" I were to do it, I would not do just a sugar wash as it's harsh as hell, if you do decide to us just sugar I would use no more than 1.5 lb per gallon of wash and add 1/2 cup boiled bread yeast to it for nutrients as white table sugar has none and also something to buffer, keep a 5-5.5 ph, "oyster shells" at the beginning of a wash will buffer enough for a 4-5 day ferment.

DO NOT USE TURBO YEAST!!!! lol

If using bread yeast, keep the fermentation above 85°f
What would be the best option for the wash? I would rather not use honey as it is very expensive (at least, the local honey I get from a farm is)
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
Thumper without a doubt!
Only way to run a pot still IMHO
 

ichbinbier

Active Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Messages
32
Reaction score
7
Location
Toronto
Is there such a thing as legal distilling, and if not, why have a distilling page when forum rules say no talk of said activities...?
This forum has members from all over the world including places where it is legal to distill so a thread here is relevant in my opinion.
Remember up until 2013 it was illegal to make you own beer in Mississippi and Alabama but I bet there was forum users from those states here.

And eventually I could see a marijuana thread here as it is legal in a few states now and will be legal in all of Canada this year.

But as stated before if I want to talk about distilling I will go to a distilling forum, if I want to talk about weed I'll go to a weed forum and I come here for the beer talk.
 

Randar

Half rib short of a full rack
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
55,962
Reaction score
10,649
Location
NW Burbs
I agree Eric. When I first started brewing, a friend asked when were we making whiskey. I told him that the learning curve was too steep on something that would take years to be ready. I brewed twice a month my first year, and it took all of that to learn to make craft quality beer. I would just be sampling my first batch of aged whiskey now.
That's not true at all (except perhaps for the part about learning to make good beer/wash first)... you can make high quality American style whiskeys in as little as 6 months. You have to understand 1) commercial whiskey distilleries produce a CRAP product that needs a lot of aging and charcoal exposure to mellow out... they run hot and fast and pump the product out in volume 2) Relationship between temp cycles and aging, 3) think about surface area/exposure... small barrel whiskeys always taste like crap because the ratio is way off...

and back to #1)
Whisky produced in the U.S. at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn and stored at not more than 62.5% alcohol by volume (125 proof) in charred new oak containers.
the basic premises of pulling your whiskeys at <160 proof from the still is just nonsense... it adds to the crap starting product and its inclusion in the definition of bourbon is historical garbage. If you make many finer cuts and blend back only what you like, you will end up with a far superior starting product that will require less aging to mellow. Take a look at a typical pot run as illustrated below. How do you separate the hearts from the heads and tails? How do you separate the different components of the heads and tails into determining what is and isn't desirable? It's not truly possible, is it? They're all smeared together. The more coarse and lower purity your cuts are, the more "smearing" that is occurring outside of your control.

Run%2520colours%25205%2520pot.jpg


Now in a more controlled run in a high reflux still, you will have much more obvious delineations between the different components. And through trial and error you can determine what is and isn't suitable for your needs.

For aging, char some staves all the way around and age in stainless. Allow some air exchange periodically or via some small hole/breathing valve thingy of your choice.

There are quite a few here (including a couple mods) who can vouch for my... ahem... "knowledge" on this...

This is more labor intensive, but at small scale, what else is it but a labor of love?
 

Randar

Half rib short of a full rack
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
55,962
Reaction score
10,649
Location
NW Burbs
Also, is a still with a thumper a better option, or should I just stick with a basic still?
Start reading and figure out what your goals and range of products you might like to try. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. Stills for brandy, gin, vodka, whiskey, etc all have unique requirements and the still designs can be tweaked as such.

https://aussiedistiller.com.au/books/The compleat distiller.pdf

And if you can pick up a copy of this book, it will be a nice complement to the pdf book linked above.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0968629210/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
Ryue

Ryue

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
131
Reaction score
24
Location
Bremerton
Well I was thinking along the lines of the most flavorless process I can find as I want to use it as a base to add berries and spices to after.. So that would technically be vodka, if I'm not mistaken? May have read an inaccurate artical though..
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
I can taste the difference between vodka and a neutral spirit.

A pot still will get you brandies, rums and whiskeys, a reflux colum will get you neutrals and vodkas.

There are different fermenting techniques for each of the spirits too.

The guide for cuts shown a few posts ago is for a potstill and for a neutral or vodka you would keep only hearts from a few runs and redistill them and only keep the most clean part of the run.
 

Randar

Half rib short of a full rack
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
55,962
Reaction score
10,649
Location
NW Burbs
Well I was thinking along the lines of the most flavorless process I can find as I want to use it as a base to add berries and spices to after.. So that would technically be vodka, if I'm not mistaken? May have read an inaccurate artical though..
Then you want a high reflux still... Do some reading and let me know if you have questions. A basic pot still in any typical configuration is not going to be suitable for that.
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
Yes, you would want a reflux colum not a pot still.
If you decide to build, there are many links in Homedistiller.org, many folks to help you along the way as long as you do your part
"research"
If you decide to buy, the shop or or company where you buy have to by law upon request turn over your personal information to the TTB.
I for one wouldn't want then lookin through my garage for untaxed likker.

I would build! Hit up the lcoal scrap yard and look for a 15.5 gal keg, some 2" or 3" copper and build a simple reflux colum. ferrules can be bought from amazon, copper or ss.
The other materials needed can be bought from your local plumbing supply co.

A simple boka will get you a pure vodka or neutral, you just need to have a good mash or wash and some knowledge of what and how.
 

CanadianJesus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
142
Reaction score
15
I'm glad that distillation talk is allowed here now. I started making mead a little over 2 years ago, but have gotten into home distillation in recent months. It's actually not a very big 'crime' here in Canada. From my research, nobody has ever been charged and convicted for home distillation of liquor here in Canada.

I have a question though. Can I post in the wine forum and ask questions about my 'wine' that I intend to distil, or would I have to leave out the part of what I intend to do with the wine (mash). I'm working on a recipe for Concord grape Grappa right now, but I have a question about yeast activity. I think I'll post in the wine forum but leave out the fact that I'm going to distil it just for the sake of site integrity.
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
I'm sure as long as you're not making and selling likker to the public you'll be fine.
I'm my location, it's the same although they did bust a fella selling to the authorities a couple years ago but he had a 300 gallon still with a bunch of mash and bottled likker ready to go. Dumb ass!!!

What kind of yeast did you use? All things fruit I use d47 as it imparts a nice fruity flavor to the must.

Good thing about distilling is that unless you have an element in the still you don't have to clear and even better if you run a thumper in which you could put the must in the boiler and muck in the thumper! win win imo.
AND,,, dont add sulfides/sulfite to anything you want to distill, it will carry over from what I've read. I don't make alot of fruit wines just meads with fruits (alot)
 

CanadianJesus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
142
Reaction score
15
I'm using Lalvin EC-1118 in a Welch's Grappa. Simple cheap recipe. I'm still new at this and I'm trying to not do really expensive mashes until I get a better hang of running my still (it's just a small 1 gallon capacity all copper pot still). And no, I do not and have no intention of selling it. Sharing with friends, yes, but I have nothing to worry about. I have little to no interaction with police or anything of that sort.

It's just that I pitched the yeast 3 days ago and I still have no airlock activity. I checked the gravity after 24 hours and it rose by 3 points probably due to the fact that I crushed a bunch of table grapes and added the juice to the mash and suspended the crushed grapes in a tied up piece of cheesecloth. Two nights ago I decided to re hydrate 2 more packs of the same yeast, one of them was a second pack I bought from my LHBS at the same time that has an expiry date of 2019, and an old pack I had laying around that expires next month.

I added 3tsp of DAP and 1tsp of White Labs nutrient. OG is 1.090 and rose 3 points to 1.093 after the first 24 hours. I'm going to take a reading tonight to see if anything's happening. I'm just hoping the shop didn't sell me dead yeast. I noticed that he didn't have it refrigerated. The pack I had laying around was actually one I forgot about and wasn't refrigerated either because I was going to use it for a project I had in mind a few years back that I forgot about.

But on the other hand, I recently made two 1 gallon batches of mead out of a single pack of liquid WYeast 1388 that was left un refrigerated for over a year. That yeast took off like a rocket, and from my understanding refrigerating liquid yeast is far more important than it is with dry yeast...

I made my first mead with EC 1118 and it was fermenting within a day. I'm just wondering if this is normal or not for grape wine with this yeast.
 

Randar

Half rib short of a full rack
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
55,962
Reaction score
10,649
Location
NW Burbs
Ugni Blanc (aka trebbiano or St Émilion) and Colombard varietals make a really nice Brandy or cognac. Bonus points for also being the key fortifier for legit port. You may be able to find grape must or wine kits focused on this grape varietal as well. As noted, keep additions to a minimum. You don't particularly care about clarity and fining as you do in a typical wine, so you can skip a few of the usual steps.
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
Also, collect in very small jars (baby food jars)
Cuts will be very hard on a pot still that small but can be done if the fractions are well separated.
May I suggest to do stripping runs to collect low wines, get enough of it for a full charge spirit run and you'll get back 50-65% pure hearts.
If you dont know, a strip run is where you run hard and fast only discarding the fore shots and keeping the rest. stripping to around 10-15% should get you a total volume under 40%
A spirit run is when you have enough of the low wines to fill the boiler and thumper, the key is to keep the low wines under 40% and 30% is better yet!

Keep the stillage left in the boiler as it will add to the flavors in the spirit run. If needed, dilute the low wines with it and not water.

Run the spirit run at a medium pace, a pencil lead sized stream is good and as I've mentioned... collect in very small jars.

Let them air out over night with a coffee filter only to cover the tops, this will let the higher alcohols evaporate and you'll be surprised in how much different the smell are from fresh to 24 hours.

Blending is another beast all together but ec1118 makes it easier than other yeasts from my experience.
Good luck,
Shine0n
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
What was your OG?

What size ferment did you make?
 

Shawn3997

Will brew for beer.
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
127
Reaction score
29
I saw some guy on the news recently get arrested for having a big copper still, but he also had a lot of drugs and guns and stolen stuff that they used for probable cause.

I still thought it was weird that they'd even put that in with the rest of the arrest stuff, like it was still prohibition days.
 

bernardsmith

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
5,210
Reaction score
1,691
Location
Saratoga Springs
While many states disagree the Feds still think prohibition works... After all, it worked like a charm from 1920 -1933, didn't it? Oh, right...
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
They are holding onto laws almost 100 years old because of the crap people threw into their likker that was killing people.
It's not the great depression, folks are more aware and take safety to a higher level.
A little research goes a long way!!!

Don't go to YouTube and think one of them idiots won't get you hurt, Homedistiller.org is the real deal, anything you would ever want to know is there and people that take pride in their craft just like the beer and wine and mead guys will help along the way as long as you do your part of reading and wanting to learn.

It's a shame it's still like this but it is what it is.
 

CanadianJesus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
142
Reaction score
15
My OG is 1.090 and went up to 1.093 overnight either due to sugar from the grapes or the cane sugar fully dissolving. It is a 6.5 gallon batch in a bucket. I'm getting tired and not sure if I feel like checking gravity tonight.
 

CanadianJesus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
142
Reaction score
15
I've done a lot of reading on the homedistiller.org forum and I've ran a still with my buddy before. My main question is if this is normal behaviour for EC-1118 yeast. Is it normal for it to take a few days to take off? My OG of this wine is lower than the OG of the mead I have used the same strain on before, so that shouldn't be an issue.
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
I guess it depends on the temp, I've had 1118 take a couple days to get going and then not look like it's doing much due to fermenting at lower temps.

I rarely use airlock unless in a carboy because buckets don't always seal properly.

Crack it open and listen to it, if it's sizzling, it's working.

Check the pH also, I like to keep it above 4.5 and below 5.5

If ph isn't an issue I'd raise the temp up to the 80's if possible, 1118 has a pretty wide range for temps and I for one like the warmer side of things for stillin.
 

Northern_Brewer

British - apparently some US company stole my name
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
2,346
Location
UK
Is there such a thing as legal distilling, and if not, why have a distilling page when forum rules say no talk of said activities...?
In most countries the answer is yes, as long as you play by a whole load of rules like Jack Daniels and Jim Beam do. In some countries the answer is still yes if you're just talking about homedistilling - but it's a question that's meaningless unless you specify what legal jurisdiction you are talking about.

You can't just assume that HBT is restricted to just one country...

If you're thinking of taking it more seriously, Ted Bruning's The Craft Distillers' Handbook ISBN 978-1903872376 may be useful, but since most of the issues with setting up a distillery are connected to the red tape, and it only concerns itself with what happens in the UK, you'll find a lot of it is only going to give you a rough idea of what you need to do things legally.
 

seabrew8

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
1,032
Reaction score
145
Location
Newfoundland, Canada
This is cool! I have my first sugar wash fermenting. Going to try to make a corn/pils mash when i get home.

homedistiller lots of good information, but simply the worst forum i ever seen for newbies. and i've used forums from weightlifting, nutrition, piano to name a few.
 

seabrew8

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
1,032
Reaction score
145
Location
Newfoundland, Canada
I've done a lot of reading on the homedistiller.org forum and I've ran a still with my buddy before. My main question is if this is normal behaviour for EC-1118 yeast. Is it normal for it to take a few days to take off? My OG of this wine is lower than the OG of the mead I have used the same strain on before, so that shouldn't be an issue.
No its not normal.
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
Some of them guys are full of themselves and bitch about anyone who asks a question but there are thousands more wiling to help.

I've helped many of people who simply ask, all I ever ask in return is to do some reading and research for a possible answer on your own. I don't bash anyone and I'll set the ones who do straight in a pm. Most the time it works but there are too many to waist my time trying to police the joint.

Have thick skin, pull up your big boy pants and play ball!

It can be a very rewarding hobby (so I'm tole)
 

Randar

Half rib short of a full rack
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
55,962
Reaction score
10,649
Location
NW Burbs
This is cool! I have my first sugar wash fermenting. Going to try to make a corn/pils mash when i get home.

homedistiller lots of good information, but simply the worst forum i ever seen for newbies. and i've used forums from weightlifting, nutrition, piano to name a few.
The ratio of redneckerish BS and half-assery to valuable information is hard to get past. Sooooo much wasted time filtering through the junk. Reading books was a better resource for me. If you can do some basic math and wrap your head around the gas law and some valuable concepts from HS chemistry, you can have a good appreciation of where to go. And if you are coming from a homebrewing all-grain starting point, you're already light years ahead of 99% of participants on that forum.
 

golfindia

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
527
Reaction score
155
The ratio of redneckerish BS and half-assery to valuable information is hard to get past. Sooooo much wasted time filtering through the junk.
Yes. And a large portion of the stuff on homedistiller.org forum is plain nuts. Entertaining none the less, like reading police arrest reports.....
 

seabrew8

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
1,032
Reaction score
145
Location
Newfoundland, Canada
lol yeah lots of them are like thought/message police.

I seen many mention you have to read until your "eyes bleed" before asking questions lol nonsense

And there is a lot of junk on the site for sure.
 

seabrew8

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
1,032
Reaction score
145
Location
Newfoundland, Canada
The ratio of redneckerish BS and half-assery to valuable information is hard to get past. Sooooo much wasted time filtering through the junk. Reading books was a better resource for me. If you can do some basic math and wrap your head around the gas law and some valuable concepts from HS chemistry, you can have a good appreciation of where to go. And if you are coming from a homebrewing all-grain starting point, you're already light years ahead of 99% of participants on that forum.
So Radar do you make any corn whiskey?

I was going to follow th is recipe but use 6# of corn and 4# of pilsner instead of a 7:3 ratio. I have a sack of cracked corn but i haven't opened it yet so i'm not sure if i will run it though my mill but i believe most people do.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17750
 

Randar

Half rib short of a full rack
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
55,962
Reaction score
10,649
Location
NW Burbs
So Radar do you make any corn whiskey?

I was going to follow th is recipe but use 6# of corn and 4# of pilsner instead of a 7:3 ratio. I have a sack of cracked corn but i haven't opened it yet so i'm not sure if i will run it though my mill but i believe most people do.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17750
I tend to prefer high rye bourbons and scotch... which I have heard, can also be made successfully. :mug:
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
You could also do cornmeal instead, I do a no cook method and not boil corn muck for 1.5 hours PITA

I usually get 1.065 1.070 on my AG mashes and ferment on the grain.

Honey Bear Bourbon is at the top of my list and is a fine bourbon indeed, it's in the tried and true section, I do love rum though but had to make my own due to people making it rocket science for some reason.
 

CanadianJesus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
142
Reaction score
15
Ok, my grape mash has begun fermenting. I noticed that there was pressure in the airlock earlier today and even saw a bubble. Checked SG and it's at 1.092 right now. I gave it a stir for aeration, but didn't see much CO2 come out of suspension. Right now after about 8 hours, I see a bubble every half minute or so (I get buckets with good seals). It seems to be picking up speed. I think this will turn out alright.

Last night I placed an order for 9 packets of fresh yeast. 3 different strains that will serve different purposes. I'm going to stick with fruit brandies right now, but want to get into all grain mashes later in the year. Corn whisky and maybe even vodka (but I'll need a column still for that, pot still vodka tastes way too harsh for me). I really, really want to try making a vodka with oats some day. I'd love to see how that tastes because oats are probably my favourite grain taste wise. I've never seen an oat vodka in any liquor store either.
 

Shine0n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
346
Reaction score
118
That's the best thing of doing your own, you can have it your way!

I've had some ag pot stilled vodka and it wasn't bad but I'm not a vodka fan per se'

I do love a good fruit brandy, the ones I've made were all fruit with no sugar as I feel I get a better flavor of the base fruit and yeast also plays a part.
If I do add sugar, it's never any more than .5 lb per gal. I also invert the sugar!
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
956
Reaction score
112
Location
Clearwater, FL
Yes. And a large portion of the stuff on homedistiller.org forum is plain nuts. Entertaining none the less, like reading police arrest reports.....
have you read this thread? LOL....


Seriously, though, on the subject of the original topic of "Distilling.. Legal...?":

As others have said, this forum is not just for the US, and the forum is not the police for any nation..

US rules are very clear and outlined at https://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml

In the US we almost had it federally legal, as there was a paragraph at the end of the 'Craft beverage modernization act of 2015' bill that would have exempted home distillation from taxes 24 gal a year or something like that.. it also said 15.5gal boiler which is *convenient* for you guys, but that is not the real sticking point of the law, the tax exemption is... This exemption was dropped when the bill was renewed for 2017, sadly, and that entire 2017 bill was dropped and just a few provisions made it to the tax bill that passed at the end of 2017.. Every time you post on here, you should be thinking about sending your congressperson a letter too...

Also on the original subject, once a majority people on here understand what this forum is for and what it is not for, it would be nice to not have ever new person coming in beat ilegality like a dead horse in every 10th comment. I humbly suggest a sticky and enforcement by warnings and quick deletions of legality posts in 'non-legality' threads.
 
Top