Direct fired RIMS-style mashing

[justforrazors]

Hey all, I'm in the process of revamping my mashing system as I've gotten sick of the difficulty involved with step mashing from infusion in a ten gallon cooler. Just wondering about feedback from people who run a similar style system- how do you like it, any drawbacks, things you would change, etc.

I have a 15 gallon blichmann brewpot with a false bottom and autosparge. What I've designed is a direct fire system using a march pump to recirculate the wort in order to keep consistent temperatures throughout the mash and to prevent super heating any one portion of the mash. For right now, I'll just be using the one brewmometer for temperature readings, but eventually plan on expanding to a PID unit with multiple in line probes that connect to an autostart for the burner (turning it on/off as needed) to fully automate the system. I like that I'll have plenty of options for further upgrading the system, but won't necessarily need to in order for the system to run efficiently.

So, questions:

For those running a similar setup, have you had problems with scorching grains, overheating, or temperature stability?

If you ran a cooler mash previously, how does the clarity and efficiency differ between the two? My understanding is that the constant re-circulation is supposed to help with both, but I'd love some firsthand feedback.

Finally, any suggestions for improving the design? It is currently pretty straightforward and should only cost about $250-300 for the first steps I want to take, and seemed like it would be better for step mashing than a true RIMS or HERMS system. Just wondering if I'm missing anything huge here, or If I could improve further without dumping too much money into it.

 

[Five28 hz]

What problems are you running into with the cooler? I find my cooler setup to be about as easy as it gets, but I know very little about RIMS or HERMS systems other than the few you tube videos I've watched.

Obligatory RIMS gif

 

[justforrazors]

Not any huge issues, I'm just upgrading the system because I want better lautering, clarity, efficiency, and a more automated system. Also, I like the idea of direct fire instead of boiling water infusions to do a step mash, which is a pain in the butt.

 

[jebediahscooter1]

I'm currently embarking on my new system build. I've tooled around with how I want to do things for about 4 years, and I settled on a design and have been acquiring parts for the past year. Welding a stand begins this week. I'm also moving away from the cooler MLT to a direct-fired RIMS controlled with a PID/solenoids because of 1) desire to do step-mashes/mashout easier, 2) effort to take plastics out of my system (the inside of my MLT is all warped and misshapen, which does not sit well with me), 3) plan to do no-sparge 2-vessel batches with full-time recirculation to aid in clarity/efficiency, 4) repeatability. So my motives are pretty much aligned with yours. From the extensive message board and homebrew blog research I've done, people seem pretty pleased with the direct-fire RIMS route.

I think the big issues are that there are some little idiosyncrasies with the pid/solenoid setup (orifice sizes, PSI you're running to the valve, getting the wiring just-so, controller parameters that you use, etc.). That's where I see the most trouble-shooting happening on the intertubes. Otherwise, it seems like if you have a good false bottom (which you do), fire the burner with a pretty low flame for temp adjustments, and watch out for stuck run-off, scorching isn't much of an issue. If you're concerned, you could run-off into a grant to heat, or you could just heat in a second vessel (would require two pumps or a two-tier system). I was never really interested in firing the burner manually--seems like you'd just be yo-yo'ing around your target mash temperature the whole time. I'm just going to place an RTD probe on a tee at my mash valve, heat when the output is low, and let the rest of the mash catch up to it. Original Lonnie Mac Brutus 10 style...seems like it's pretty tried and true.

Anyhow, check back in a couple of months, and the new system should be up and running and I'll be able to give you feedback that's less anecdotal.

 

[MKLEVER42]

I was running the 10 gallon igloo cooler method and I just brewed my second batch on my RIMS system. I converted 2 kegs into keggles, tig welded 1/2" pass throughs, used all stainless, fittings, SABCO false bottom with dip tube and am using 2 blichman burners. I also purchased 2 tower of power control modules from Blichman with the stand that has the pump as well. I set the temp I want at 130, then I mash in. Let it rest for a little bit, ramp up the heat to 145 while it is recirculating. Sparging literally takes 10-15 minutes depending on how many gallons/min you choose which there is a monitor for that as well. It is a little pricey, but I couldn't be happier with it.

 

[koopa1]

I've been manually running (using a pump but no PID's or automatically lit burners) a direct fired RIMS for a few batches now. Basically I'm using a Boilermaker MLT, a chugger pump w/ center inlet stainless head, and a morebeer "ultimate sparge arm" that I modified by piping a brewmometer into it to take temperature readings of the wort I'm drawing off of the bottom of the MLT. No problems with scorching at all since I'm keeping the wort moving and I can monitor the temp of the wort at the bottom of the MLT with the thermometer I plumbed into my sparge arm. What have also found is that, although I must baby sit the system during mashing since I don't have PID's running the burner, it is quite possible to maintain a mash temp within 0-2 degrees of target. Clarity of the lautered runnings is amazing as expected.

I am also finding that it is very difficult to use this setup for step mashing or reaching mashout temp solely by direct firing the recirculating wort. Say I want to go from a 148F sacc. rest to a 168F mashout.... It's easy enough to get the direct fired wort being drawn out from under the false bottom up to 168F. But if you want to get all of the wort in the MLT up to 168F it's damn near impossible to do so if you insist keeping the wort you are drawing off from the bottom of the MLT under 176F to avoid potential tannin extraction. I know my pH is in check so I shouldn't be as worried about it as I am, but I was less concerned (and it was much easier to accomplish the step) with adding a few gallons of say 190F water to the mash to get the kettle contents up to mashout. Mashout and potential tannin extraction aside, the issue is the same for any temperature rest. Say I want to do a protein rest @ 131F and then go up to a 148F sacc. rest favoring beta amylase, I surely wouldn't want my recirculating wort being heated up to a temperature much higher than 148F. But if I keep it at 148F it takes forever to get the entire contents of the MLT up to that temp. Any experienced RIMS users have any thoughts on my concern / experience?

 

[koopa1]

P.S. One factor that might be playing a role in my slow ramp up times is that I'm not turning the flame up too much and I'm keeping the pump throttled back. I'm mainly doing those things out of fear of compacting the grain bed / cavitating the pump by trying to draw wort off too quickly during the recirculation. Now if I was turning the flame up and recirculating faster w/o issue, that would surely help my ramp up times without overheating my recirculation wort.

 

[justforrazors]

I've gotten most of my parts together so I should be trying this next weekend for the first time with a saison I've made a few times before. I hadn't thought about putting a thermometer in line at the output, although I really like the idea and may put one in before I run it here if I can find the pieces before next Sunday. Either way, I'll post some pictures of the brewday and my experience.

 

[koopa1]

Good luck with it. Here are pictures of the plumbing method I used....

 

[justforrazors]

As promised, new pictures of the setup. It still needs some adjustments (and I need a brew stand) but it worked well for the first round.

Pretty standard mashing setup- two temperature probes- one for the overall temperature and one for the return temperature.

Shot of the mash during recirculation- great clarity/color. Temp control was super easy even doing it by manually adjusting the burner. Maintained 2 degrees from my mash temp throughout the whole mash, and ramp time to a mash out took 8-10 minutes tops.

Sparging- I need to get a different size arm for the ball. This one is a touch too long, and the standard 6 inch one is too small for 5 gallon normal OG batches. I mainly controlled the sparge flow with the ball value on my cooler I used for sparging though.

As you can see, fantastic clarity. Unfortunately, the setup I've previously used for blocking hops did not work at all for recirculating at the end of boil for a whirlpool/transfer. Had to settle for a standard gravity fed transfer, and will modify the dip tube with something similar to the electric brewery hop stopper.

Overall, efficiency was only a touch better than my old cooler setup, although the ease of using the pump for transfer/cleaning made for a much easier brewday. In addition, it seemed like step mashing was extremely easy in this setup and I didn't have any issues with scorching or huge temperature jumps coming through the output port. Excited to play with this one more in the future.

 

[jebediahscooter1]

justforrazors Looks great, glad you had success. Have you thought about monitoring temps on the output instead of the return? Seems like Lonnie Mac is pretty adamant about doing it that way with Brutus. The thinking is that you're losing heat through tubes as you recirculate, so you might be heating the bottom of the mash too much (not so much an issue of scorching, but say you're getting your 152 or whatever you want it to be at the return, but the bottom of the mash is actually being heated to 156 en route to the return). He talks about how the rest of the mash will soon "catch up" if he monitors temps at the output.

I haven't had time to put my system together what with summer travels and whatnot, but I have most of the parts in hand now. Hopefully I'll be able to add pics of the new setup by early fall.

 

[justforrazors]

justforrazors Looks great, glad you had success. Have you thought about monitoring temps on the output instead of the return? Seems like Lonnie Mac is pretty adamant about doing it that way with Brutus. The thinking is that you're losing heat through tubes as you recirculate, so you might be heating the bottom of the mash too much (not so much an issue of scorching, but say you're getting your 152 or whatever you want it to be at the return, but the bottom of the mash is actually being heated to 156 en route to the return). He talks about how the rest of the mash will soon "catch up" if he monitors temps at the output.

I haven't had time to put my system together what with summer travels and whatnot, but I have most of the parts in hand now. Hopefully I'll be able to add pics of the new setup by early fall.

Yeah, the next temperature probe I add will be on the output. I just didn't have the time to get one on there before brewday. I may even just switch the location of the tee I have on there right now.

 

[dbrese1]

justforrazors Looks great, glad you had success. Have you thought about monitoring temps on the output instead of the return? Seems like Lonnie Mac is pretty adamant about doing it that way with Brutus. The thinking is that you're losing heat through tubes as you recirculate, so you might be heating the bottom of the mash too much (not so much an issue of scorching, but say you're getting your 152 or whatever you want it to be at the return, but the bottom of the mash is actually being heated to 156 en route to the return). He talks about how the rest of the mash will soon "catch up" if he monitors temps at the output.

I haven't had time to put my system together what with summer travels and whatnot, but I have most of the parts in hand now. Hopefully I'll be able to add pics of the new setup by early fall.

Adding a temp probe on the output with a tee solved my problems with temp variations in my RIMS system I built last spring. I'm on my fifth batch with the system and had not been totally confident in using it until I switched the location to the output of the MLT. The setup is described very well on the Electric Brewery website. Works like a charm. However I do wish I had a badass Blichmann kettle like those in the photos.