Didn't snap the lid down. Told me not to.

[raptor90]

Yet another new person trying to attempt brewing! Now in Canada, I find that brewing is more of a necessity than a hobby because alcohol prices are a lot higher here than in the US. But moving to my question/point.

I bought a kit from Nobel Grape and got a Cooper's 'real ale' malt extract kit. Now I know you can simply boil this up, dump it in the fermenting bucket, pitch your yeast etc, snap the lid, stick in the airlock and let it do its magic and that no secondary is needed, HOWEVER! I chose to follow the instructions that Nobel Grape gave me since this is my first time doing this and in the step that talks about pitching the yeast, it says once its added to wort, it says to "place the lid on top of the fermenter, do not snap it down". Then to check it in 12-24 hours and I will see evidence of yeast activity, (which I do, since its been 24 hours since I did this) and in 2 or 3 days to rack it to my secondary.

So I'm wondering, has anyone ever done that method? Actually NOT snap the lid down? Right now I have it just sitting on the bucket with a bag over the top to try to keep any dust etc from entering through the hole that the airlock would normally go. So far it seems to be doing what the instructions say, but I just thought I'd get some opinions on this matter.

Cheers

- Steve

 

[Clann]

I think they are refering to winemaking when they do not lock the lid. I always snap the lid in and put an airlock on it.

 

[raptor90]

Would it not being snapped down cause any harm? Or should I go snap it down asap and stick the airlock in it to be safe?

 

[subliminalurge]

Yeah, those instructions are off.

Snap the lid down and use your airlock.

Don't peek in to look for activity.

Give it WAY more than 2 or 3 days before going to secondary.

 

[Clann]

I would snap it and airlock it so no bugs, expecialy fruit flies have a chance to get in.

 

[jfr1111]

I do that all the time. If you have an airlock, use it, but if not, it's no big deal. You can snap it down except for a little bit if you are worried about bugs/dust.

I regularly open ferment (as in "wide open to the air") but you need a very strong yeast that puts up a lot of CO2 fast for this to be viable. Plus, a draft free room. My fermentation room gets vaccumed before and after every brew so there isn't a lot of dust flying around.

 

[raptor90]

Okay thanks for the heads up. I stuck the lid on and jammed the airlock in. I'll let things go until about Sunday and move it to my secondary, or I may just let it sit in the bucket, but I wouldn't mind trying the secondary out for the heck of it.

 

[subliminalurge]

Go ahead and do the secondary if you'd like. Many folks here say it's not necessary, and it truly isn't, but I still do it on occasion depending on the beer.

What you want to understand is what the *purpose* of doing a secondary is. It's basically giving the beer more time to sit, age a bit, and let more "stuff" settle down so that the beer is clearer. Most of that can be accomplished just as well by leaving it in the primary longer. (I use glass fermenters all around, if you're fermenting in a plastic bucket, I can see an argument for getting it off the plastic.)

Really the biggest reason I use secondaries anymore is to free up my big 6.5 gallon carboys to put a fresh batch into, not so much because I think the beer "needs" a secondary.

 

[Revvy]

There's nothing wrong with the equipment you were sold, or the instructions you were given, just that you, and evidently a few of the posters on here giving you advice, don't know all the variations of kits out there.

There are several fermenters out there that don't have airlock bungholes added, and don't need airlocks on them.

And are perfectly fine.

Some you do need to drill, while others don't and the lids don't sit all that tight on them.

There's nothing wrong with that at all, And the mr beer fermenter doesn't even have an airlock, and SOMEHOW beer manages to still ferment in those things.

An airlock is nothing more than a valve to keep the lid from blowing off and painting your ceiling with your beer.

The bad stuff are not ninja acrobats, they really can't get into stuff. The co2 coming out will prevent anything getting in.

The airlock is one of the most superfluous things in brewing, that new brewers seem to put the most stock in.


You really don't need an airtight seal on your fermenter. The co2 coming out of there would protect your beer. In fact many folks with arthitis and other issues don't snap the lid down on their buckets anyway, and may folks just put tinfoil, plastic wrap, metal cookie sheets or even plexiglass sheets on top of the bucket instead. It's really not crucial to be tight. The bad stuff are not ninja acrobats, they really can't get into stuff. The co2 coming out will prevent anything getting in.

In fact you don't want a "pressurized" bucket, if you have one, then at some point you will end up with a ceiling full of beer. I've had that happen when the vent (airlock) gets blocked by a freak hop cone, and it wasn't pretty.

 

[raptor90]

Okay, thanks for the info. The only other thing the store's instructions mentioned was that its 'not good' to leave a brew in the primary plastic fermenter for more than 5 days. Not sure if thats their way of getting you to use a secondary or if plastic can effect the taste of a brew, but so far I never read anything like that happening.

 

[Revvy]

Okay, thanks for the info. The only other thing the store's instructions mentioned was that its 'not good' to leave a brew in the primary plastic fermenter for more than 5 days. Not sure if thats their way of getting you to use a secondary or if plastic can effect the taste of a brew, but so far I never read anything like that happening.

That's outdated information.....I leave almost all my beers a minimium of 1 month, and I use bucket fermenters 99% of the time. I've left beer for 6 months in buckets and they were great beers.

Moving a beer after only 5 days is just stupid advice ANYWAY. A lot of times yeast don't even begin to take off for THREE days (it's called lag time) so if you are arbitrarily moving a beer on day five, you are probably only getting 48 hours to let the yeast make beer for you....they're amazing, but not that amazing.

I recommend folks who want to use secondary, wait 2 weeks and take 2 gravity readings, one on day 12 and the other on day 14 to make sure the beer is FINISHED fermenting before you take it off the yeast that is best suited to finish the job. Other wise you may get stuck fermentations.

Also leaving the beer a few extra days lets the yeast clean up all the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors.

As to secondarying or not, everything you need to know to make up your own mind has been discussed here- To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .

 

[subliminalurge]

The bad stuff are not ninja acrobats, they really can't get into stuff. The co2 coming out will prevent anything getting in.

This is absolutely true.

However, I still think the instructions to leave the lid loose are bad for a newcomer to homebrewing. Not because it's bad brewing practice, but because of basic human psychology. Having that lid sitting loose is just too much of an open invitation to lift it up every couple of hours to check out the cool stuff that's happening. And when that's happening, it doesn't take an acrobat ninja to get in.

I'd go so far as to say that bucket fermenters should be considered veteran equipment and "starter kits" should use nothing but glass carboys or better bottles. Let's face it, ANYBODY brewing their first batch is going to want to watch the process and see what's going on. And really, the yeast storm from a vigorous fermentation is a pretty cool thing to watch. Hell, I've been brewing for almost 7 years not and I'm only just now getting to the point where I would consider using a fermenter that I couldn't see through. My starter kit was all glass and I've been all glass ever since. After 7 years, though, I've seen my share of yeast storms and I want to ramp up my pipeline, so I'm probably going to add some buckets just because they're so much cheaper than carboys.

Maybe some folks have more will power than I do, but for myself, having that loose lid on a bucket would mean frequent openings to "check things out".

All I'm saying is that if a newbie follows that advice to not snap the lid down, then that lid WILL be getting opened up frequently.

 

[spkelly]

I too started with a similar setup and did the "loose lid" for my first brew and it was fine but I've since modified my method to a sheet of plastic, secured with an elastic, around my bucket. Keeps out the nasties, CO2 can still seep out, lets me see what's going on and the bucket is easier to clean than a carboy. I've also ignored the instructions from Noble Grape and settled on a 3 week primary in said bucket. Try all the different methods you read/hear about and settle on the one that works best for you.

Also, in addition to the great information on this forum, you should also check out brewnosers.org to chat with local homebrewers here in Nova Scotia.

-Shawn

 

[johnnyspade]

I know why they do this, or think I do. I spoke to someone at Magnotta (Festa Brew) once upon a time about their instructions, which are similar.

What they are providing are a generic set of instructions designed to make varying styles of beer, some with different yeasts even. In their case they recommended NOT snapping the lid down for initial fermentation as that's when the fermentation is really active and, as mentioned by a previous poster, not all lids have any means of air escape. Not sealing the lid means not blowing the lid off the fermenter.

The second part of the process involving racking to your secondary after a maximum of 5 days is intended to have you racking while there's still enough fermentation happening to push the air out of the carboy.

 

[bajarob]

I have not attempted to brew my 1st batch yet but securing the lid and rigging some sort of airlock seemed pretty important from what I have been reading. Now I plan to use my primary plastic fermenter for 2 weeks at least. I have not read anything about it being a bad idea after 5 days. Am I wrong? Does it get a plasticy smell or something?
Also what do you mean by "The bad stuff are not ninja acrobats, they really can't get into stuff".

 

[Clann]

Dust, bacteria, and most important to me are the fruit flies. I seem to have an abundance of the little buggers sometimes. I always snap the lid and airlock my brew.

 

[JLW]

I have not attempted to brew my 1st batch yet but securing the lid and rigging some sort of airlock seemed pretty important from what I have been reading. Now I plan to use my primary plastic fermenter for 2 weeks at least. I have not read anything about it being a bad idea after 5 days. Am I wrong? Does it get a plasticy smell or something?
Also what do you mean by "The bad stuff are not ninja acrobats, they really can't get into stuff".

No it does not get a plasticy smell. As Revvy mentioned it's ok to leave your beer in primary for a long times/ Like Revvy I leave my beer in primary for a minimum of 4 weeks and rarely do I ever secondary unless I am doing a dry hop or a long bulk age. Some brewers dry hop in primary as well.

 

[raptor90]

The airlock is going nuts right now. Being impatient as I am, once the airlock's activity stops, I'll take some readings and if I think its ready to bottle, I probably will, rather than use the secondary. I assume I can still still heat some water and dissolve the bottling sugar in it and add that right to the primary and give it a stir, correct? Or should I add sugar to each bottle? (Using 2L soda bottles, easier, since I'll be pouring these into a glass.)

 

[JLW]

The airlock is going nuts right now. Being impatient as I am, once the airlock's activity stops, I'll take some readings and if I think its ready to bottle, I probably will, rather than use the secondary. I assume I can still still heat some water and dissolve the bottling sugar in it and add that right to the primary and give it a stir, correct? Or should I add sugar to each bottle? (Using 2L soda bottles, easier, since I'll be pouring these into a glass.)

You'll need to transfer your beer from your primary into a bottling bucket to bottle.

 

[raptor90]

The instructions just told me to put it from the carboy back into the primary for bottling, since thats all that came with the kit.

 

[johnnyspade]

The instructions just told me to put it from the carboy back into the primary for bottling, since thats all that came with the kit.

This is accurate. Based on the instructions, they are assuming you went from primary to secondary then back to primary, which is now your bottling bucket. You don't want to just add your priming sugar into your primary fermenter and bottle from there. There's likely a whole lot of sludge down there that you can't see yet, and you don't want all of it in your bottles.

 

[Hang Glider]

The airlock is going nuts right now. Being impatient as I am, once the airlock's activity stops, I'll take some readings and if I think its ready to bottle, I probably will, rather than use the secondary. I assume I can still still heat some water and dissolve the bottling sugar in it and add that right to the primary and give it a stir, correct? Or should I add sugar to each bottle? (Using 2L soda bottles, easier, since I'll be pouring these into a glass.)

There will be lots of trub. (sludge at the bottom). +1 to JohnnySpade

Yeah, I was impatient on my first brew, too. And it wasn't very good. I didn't monitor temps, I went to secondary after 1 week, and bottled the second week.

I'm glad I don't have any of THAT left, and glad I've learned patience.

This won't be your best beer if you rush it...but you're absolutely entitled to your first brew. Just don't expect miracles.

Next batch, try some of the advice here:
1) 4 weeks in primary
2) careful temperature control (pitch and ferment at the low end of the yeast manufacturer's recommendations)
3) 3 weeks MINIMUM in the bottle prior to sampling

it will be a different beer, and one you'll be proud of!

 

[plbrown44]

Howdy, just thought I'd weigh in on this thread, mostly to help another noob learn from a rather unpleasant experience I just had tonight.

No matter what, always have some sort of means to release the pressure from the fermenter.

I pitched Wyeast 1010 last night into a Bell's Oberon tweaked recipe. This morning when I woke up my airlock was bubbling rapidly.

When I went down tonight, I found my basement closet splattered with krausen (see below). Apparently I had sone pretty active yeast!

Airlock ended up plugging and the pressure built up enough to blow the top off the plastic fermenting bucket and splatter krausen all over the place. I felt like crying and I almost dumped it out until I gathered my thoughts, posted a cry for help on HBT, and, with the assistance of several HBT members, worked through it and salvaged my wort. We'll see how it turns out...

From now on, I will always use a blow off tube rather than an airlock specifically because of this experience. The moral of the story to me though is that you really must have a method to release pressure, especially one that will not clog.

Good luck.

PLB

 

[raptor90]

This gentleman here 'Craig' insists that one can bottle their brew after about a week or so and has never had any problems.

It seems almost every brewer will tell you something different. I don't mind waiting longer if I really should, but some clear instructions that everyone can agree on is nice too.

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, we know all about craig...if you read the comments on his video, and the threads here talking about him, you'll see that in terms of proper brewing techniques he's not highly regarded.

Why don't you read THIS thread instead? Ignore the Instructions,. Do not bottle after 5-10 days!!!!!!

Or what John Palmer and other folks a LOT more respected than Craig have to say on that matter-

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

One of the big ones that the yeast will clean up if given time is Diacetyl- Professor beer explains it well.

http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html

Three pathways lead to the creation of diacetyl. The first is through normal yeast metabolism. Brewer’s yeast form a precursor called alpha acetolactate (AAL), which is tasteless. This compound is converted to diacetyl as the beer ages. The reaction that changes AAL to diacetyl is accelerated by high temperature. At cool temperatures it will still occur, but more slowly.

Modern brewing practice dictates that beer be aged on live yeast until the vast majority of AAL is converted into diacetyl. Brewer’s yeast, while unable to metabolize AAL, will readily absorb and break down diacetyl into relatively flavorless compounds. By giving the beer enough contact time with the active yeast, the brewer can eliminate the diacetyl. It generally takes only about two weeks of aging an ale to assure that it will have no buttery flavors.

The difference is, do you want to make mediocre beer, or great beer? Time is really what separate the 2....

 

[Revvy]

The airlock is going nuts right now. Being impatient as I am, once the airlock's activity stops, I'll take some readings and if I think its ready to bottle, I probably will, rather than use the secondary. I assume I can still still heat some water and dissolve the bottling sugar in it and add that right to the primary and give it a stir, correct? Or should I add sugar to each bottle? (Using 2L soda bottles, easier, since I'll be pouring these into a glass.)

Rack it to a dedicated bottling bucket with a spigot and you won't have to worry about it....The problem with bottling from a primary or secondary instead of using a bottling bucket, is that since you have patiently gone and let your beer settle and clear, in order to mix the priming solution and beer effectively, you would have to stir it in the carboy which would a) kick up all that nice sediment you have patiently let fall, b) possibly oxydize the beer.

It really defeats the purpose of both a long primary/no secondary or a secondary if you have to stir up all the nice sediment you patiently waited to settle just so you can have consistent carbonation.

With my buttling bucket and my dip tube, I leave no more than about 3 ounces behind, which means I can get about 52 to 54 bottles per 5 gallon batch.

Go to a hardware store and get a translucent or white bucket...but look for one where the 5 gallon mark falls way below the top of the bucket. Usually it will say 5 gallons at 3rd band from the top. (oh get the lid too....I totally regret not getting it when I did.)

Then get a spigot and make a dedicated bottling bucket. It really defeats the purpose of both a long primary/no secondary or a secondary if you have to stir up all the nice sediment you patiently waited to settle just so you can have consistent carbonation.

Mine is the translucent Leaktite brand 5 gallon container with the gallon and liter markings from Homedepot.

Here's a pic of mine from my bottling thread.

One of my dip tubes and what gets left behind.

 

[bajarob]

I do want to watch the fermentation so maybe I'll use a glass carboy as my primary fermenter. What is the best way to transfer to the bottling bucket? I'm thinking with as little agitation as possible.

 

[VillageBrew]

Use a siphon. They can be ordered from any HBS and are priceless. Get the pump siphon that does the work continuously. Get the siphon clips to attach it to the bucket so that you do not have to stand their holding it.

 

[Wyrmwood]

I've experimented quite a bit with open fermentation. I normally use a game bag stretched over the top, but just to keep dust out. I normally leave it like that for 5-10 days, until the krausen settles the put a lid on or rack it. It's really a matter of style and taste; you'll get a faster fermentation if the yeast can breathe, but it will produce more esters (and some might say "off flavors"). If you are using an English ale yeast, that's kind of what you might be looking for. I wouldn't really recommend it for an American ale, that's intended to have a more neutral yeast flavor. It works great though on ESBs, Belgians, et al.