Diacetyl or Specialty Malt!?

[Chrispy92]

Hey Guys,

Being the relative noob I am I need some help. Have recently completed three different beers, back to back BIAB. The first was a hopped dark ale that came out fantastic, had a heap of specialty malt and what not but the taste is spot on...so I won't harp on more about this one. The second was an Amber Ale, which came out good however it has a flavor in it I can't put my finger on. It is not necessarily a bad taste but something that I didn't expect nor do I overly enjoy. It is almost a dry caramel, not overly sweet and a little roasty. Not to sound long whinded, which I will anyway as I want to give you guys all the info I have put the recipe below:

Title: Amber Ale

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: American Amber Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 12 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 15 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.041
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.009
ABV (standard): 5.5%
IBU (tinseth): 39.14
SRM (morey): 18.1

FERMENTABLES:
2.013 kg - American - Pale 2-Row (74.2%)
0.1 kg - German - Carafa I (3.7%)
0.1 kg - United Kingdom - Dark Crystal 80L (3.7%)
0.25 kg - United Kingdom - Amber (9.2%)
0.1 kg - United Kingdom - Cara Malt (3.7%)
0.15 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (5.5%)

HOPS:
9 g - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 26.83
6 g - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 8.54
5 g - amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Boil for 6 min, IBU: 2.31
6 g - mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 2 min, IBU: 1.45
15 g - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
10 g - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
5 g - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.25, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temp: 67 C, Time: 60 min

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05
Starter: No
Form: Dry

*Didn't make it to FG, stalled at 1.012 not 1.009.

First thought was that I did add a considerable amount of Amber Malt, which I initially assumed was the cause, with its roasty caramel flavor. However today I opened up my third batch which was a session IPA. I used Pale Malt and only German Carafa 1 a tiny amount 2%, but used more than double the amount of CaraMalt: 10%. After a week in primary and FG nearly spot on it has the same smell the Amber had with regards to this flavor!! In the primary it comes across as a very candied toffee sweet pungent smell.

The Amber fermented at 18C for 10 days before I bottled... Which may have not been enough time for the yeast to get rid of the diacetyl??

Or is this purely a Caramalt/Crystal malt attribute??

Any tips on discerning Diacetyl for a newbie!?

Cheers!

 

[Chrispy92]

Product pic, just because I think it's pretty

 

[Sadu]

Subbed, interested to hear what others say.

10% caramel malt is a fair bit in an IPA, though pretty standard for an amber. I have done my last couple of pale ales with just base malts and I prefer those to ones with crystal / carapils. No issues with head retention or flavour.

 

[Chrispy92]

Subbed, interested to hear what others say.

10% caramel malt is a fair bit in an IPA, though pretty standard for an amber. I have done my last couple of pale ales with just base malts and I prefer those to ones with crystal / carapils. No issues with head retention or flavour.

I think I might do something similar, work backwards to simplify things as I started off super complicated. Will do a few pales and take it back to one specialty per batch, then none at all.

the only other thing in my process that's consistent is all three batches never hit an aggressive hot break, foamed a little at the start of the boil but that's it. Also my electric stove top only has enough capacity to keep a rolling boil that is far from an aggressive boil, but rolls over at boiling point for the hour.

 

[RM-MN]

That's a pretty looking beer. You don't say how long it has been since you brewed but being a darker beer (as opposed to a Bud Lite) it may just need a little longer in the bottles to mature. I like to leave a beer that color for at least a month and maybe 2 months before I decide if I like the flavor because it will change with time.

 

[Sadu]

Have a look on Aliexpress for "immersion heater". It's a cheap heater element / heat stick that you plug into the wall and it supercharges your heating.

I actually have a great outdoor gas burner but it's expensive to run so I use the heat stick to help bring the wort to a boil. I bought an 800W heat stick which is amazing for 1 gallon batches, they come to the boil within 5 mins. It's very helpful as a supplementary heater on 5 gallon batches as well.

Have a think about 1 gallon BIAB batches too. If you are having trouble diagnosing an off-flavour you can smash one of these out while the wife goes to a movie. Great for fine-tuning a recipe or testing something new. For example I brewed a hoppy American amber and it was ok, but for the same amount of hops I'd rather just have an IPA. No harm done at 1 gallon, but at 5 gallons it would kinda be a waste. Gotta say my brewing has got a lot better as a result of being able to really refine a recipe before scaling it up.

 

[Chrispy92]

That's a pretty looking beer. You don't say how long it has been since you brewed but being a darker beer (as opposed to a Bud Lite) it may just need a little longer in the bottles to mature. I like to leave a beer that color for at least a month and maybe 2 months before I decide if I like the flavor because it will change with time.

That is a fair call actually. I have drank a few at the 1.5 week mark, after this comment I won't touch them for another week.... It is probably way too young to be making judgments on it.

I just do hope it fades a bit and the other beer doesn't have the same issue....

Time will tell!

 

[Chrispy92]

Have a look on Aliexpress for "immersion heater". It's a cheap heater element / heat stick that you plug into the wall and it supercharges your heating.

I actually have a great outdoor gas burner but it's expensive to run so I use the heat stick to help bring the wort to a boil. I bought an 800W heat stick which is amazing for 1 gallon batches, they come to the boil within 5 mins. It's very helpful as a supplementary heater on 5 gallon batches as well.

Have a think about 1 gallon BIAB batches too. If you are having trouble diagnosing an off-flavour you can smash one of these out while the wife goes to a movie. Great for fine-tuning a recipe or testing something new. For example I brewed a hoppy American amber and it was ok, but for the same amount of hops I'd rather just have an IPA. No harm done at 1 gallon, but at 5 gallons it would kinda be a waste. Gotta say my brewing has got a lot better as a result of being able to really refine a recipe before scaling it up.

That immersion heater seems like a good idea, had no idea those existed and will look into one! Thanks.

I have been doing 12l, 2.5 gallon batches, I don't think I could bring myself to do less... I think my 12l system is going to be perfect in terms of trialling new recipes. I just drink a lot of beer, and love it, I need to maximise my small production potential haha! although I may consider a few smaller batches if I'm running low on supplies. With your 1 gallon experiments are you still fermenting 2 weeks? Or do you find with a smaller amount the yeast clean up quicker and hits the FG sooner? If it weren't for smaller batches taking up my fermenters I may consider them... Maybe I need a small carboy!

 

[RM-MN]

That immersion heater seems like a good idea, had no idea those existed and will look into one! Thanks.

I have been doing 12l, 2.5 gallon batches, I don't think I could bring myself to do less... I think my 12l system is going to be perfect in terms of trialling new recipes. I just drink a lot of beer, and love it, I need to maximise my small production potential haha! although I may consider a few smaller batches if I'm running low on supplies. With your 1 gallon experiments are you still fermenting 2 weeks? Or do you find with a smaller amount the yeast clean up quicker and hits the FG sooner? If it weren't for smaller batches taking up my fermenters I may consider them... Maybe I need a small carboy!

Since you need a certain range of yeast cells per milliliter to properly ferment the beer it should take the same amount of time to ferment a pint as a barrel. You still need the 2 weeks.

I do 2 1/2 gallon batches in 6 1/2 gallon or 5 gallon buckets. You can get food grade buckets pretty cheap. Check with the bakery section of your supermarket and ask if they have empty 3 or 5 gallon buckets. They may have some very cheap or even free.

 

[Chrispy92]

Since you need a certain range of yeast cells per milliliter to properly ferment the beer it should take the same amount of time to ferment a pint as a barrel. You still need the 2 weeks.

I do 2 1/2 gallon batches in 6 1/2 gallon or 5 gallon buckets. You can get food grade buckets pretty cheap. Check with the bakery section of your supermarket and ask if they have empty 3 or 5 gallon buckets. They may have some very cheap or even free.

Cheers for the info!

I still have no auto-siphon so restricted to one 30L(6.5G) and one 15L (3G) primary vessels with spigot. I should probably just invest in a siphon in case I ever want to do future brews with a secondary, or as you mentioned get a few buckets and a few more brews going at the same time.

Pretty happy with where I am now... although I would very much enjoy if my bloody cider would hurry up and finish so I can make more beer!!

I'll crack another amber in a week or so and see how I feel about this flavor and let you guys know! Thanks

 

[Chrispy92]

Ok so just an update, the flavour definitely became more subtle and mellow with time. But it is definitely still there. It is not as unpleasant to me now as it was at first. I think it must be the amount of crystal malt. The second brew I made just finished conditioning in the bottle and it has the distinctly same flavour. In fact it almost masks the hops to a point where both beers taste quite similar (which is overwhelmingly dissapointing) even though they both got hit with different hops and hopping times.

Would cara malt/ crystal malt at high enough % give this flavour and be able to mask the hops??

Ill attach a pic of the second beer. Those who have tried the amber have said it reminds them more of an English style ale.... If that's anything to go by!

 

[ElJefeBrews]

The heftier malt profile could dampen the perceived hop profile.

Diacetyl is distinctive as a buttered popcorn flavor. Some popcorn companies even add Diacetyl to their popcorn for this reason. Is this anything like the flavor you're getting?

 

[chordwizard]

Do you used RO or adjusted water? I used to get flavours like that and it was a water related.

 

[Chrispy92]

No popcorn flavor...

I have wondered about my water, and intend on expanding into adjusting it over the next few brew days. I don't want to go too crazy just yet. I have a single malt marris otter SMaSH going at the moment so hopefully this will really help in figuring out if the crystal malts are the likely culprit.

Time will tell.

 

[xico]

I have stopped using crystal malts altogether because I'm not fond of the flavors it gives off. It tends to dominate beers, even at a low percentage for me. If you are using them for color there are cara reds that will add the dextrines for body and head retention and give you color. I use special b for my flavor/color contributions I once used crystals for.

It sounds like you are familiar with a lot of the basics. Your recipes don't throw any flags, the caramalt is a little high for my taste but nothing is out of the range of acceptable. Beer will mature with time and flavors will continue to meld. Goses I make taste too salty during fermentation but after conditioning for a month it tones back.

Common sources for off flavors that many early brewers don't consider are mentioned already, water and yeast. Diacetyl is not the only off-flavor that yeast clean up in the end. It might be worth a couple steps if you have the means and interest for it. Ward Labs (I have no affiliation with them, I'm not advertising but have been receiving their testing for a couple years) has a brewer's test package. This will be good to know what you are working with.

Another is to invest in a yeast starter. At the very least, hydrate your dry yeast before you pitch. According to a new study presented at the World Brewing Congress in August, about 30% of the yeast die by being pitched dry. Starters help you ensure that the yeast in solution are alive and budding. Your ideal yeast count for most ales is 750k cells per mL per degree Plato. Underpitching can cause off-flavors, over-pitching can do the same. You can use calculators to estimate the growth and you can also mass out the starter to estimate the numbers present. If you are considering a siphon to purchase I would recommend springing for a stainless racking cane. This can then be baked before uses to ensure it is sterile. Buy plastic and you will be replacing them or getting infections.

Best advice I could give someone starting out is if this is something you like doing, think about the three steps ahead when you add to your setup. A fork in the road will determine your choices. Is this hobby of love? Or is this a craft you are focused on honing? The former is casual and doesn't call to challenge consistency. You will learn to make world-class beer and be able to share with loved ones for years to come, maybe even get some competition medals. The latter is demanding resource-wise. An example of thinking ahead, I have spent a lot of money on my 12 carboys because they were cheaper than fermenting in kegs (Sanke and corny). In retrospect, I should have saved my money and added kegs over a longer period of time. The hours I have put in siphoning transfers would've been better spent on other activities. Again, I'm a research brewer so my needs are different than others. I'm not telling you which way to go but suggesting you consider where your ideal is and ask yourself "is _______(new item) going to serve my needs in a year or more down the road?"