Denny's Fav Help

[brew703]

Made the 2nd step up tonight. It's on the stir plate however the stir plate is having a difficult time making a vortex. This stir plate is supposed to handle up to a 2L starter.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1442882916.286959.jpg

 

[MerlinWerks]

I think the vortex is hiding under the bubbles, at least I've seen that with my starters. I've done close to 4L starters with the same stir plate...

 

[brew703]

I took it off the stir plate. Been shaking every 10 min or so but that will change once I hit the sack.

 

[Ungoliant]

Made the 2nd step up tonight. It's on the stir plate however the stir plate is having a difficult time making a vortex. This stir plate is supposed to handle up to a 2L starter.

I've got the same stir plate. It takes some umph to get it to stir a larger starter, but you really don't need to have an insane vortex to effectively make a starter.

 

[Rcbandl]

Made the 2nd step up tonight. It's on the stir plate however the stir plate is having a difficult time making a vortex. This stir plate is supposed to handle up to a 2L starter.

View attachment 304729

It doesnt need to have a vortex. as long as there is surface agitation it will aerate the starter. And going back to previous steps. If you are unsure if the yeast did anything, after you crash it, take a gravity reading of the decanted liquid and see if it went below the original gravity. If its down to 1.010 then the yeast grew. if its still at 1.040 its dead.

 

[seven9st_surfer]

Agreed, a huge vortex is overkill. All you need is a dimple, just enough motion to keep the yeast in suspension and aerate the mixture

 

[brew703]

According to Mr Malty, I should pitch 12 oz of slurry for a 1.052 batch (2.15 gal). Brew Dad shows 19 oz. That's a pretty big difference.
I also used the production date of April 7. Since I made a starter, would I use this date or go with the date I made the starter?

Should I pitch 19 oz to be on the safe side?

 

[Ungoliant]

Use date of production. It'll cover for the viability loss and give you the numbers you need to grow it back and get a good pitch.

Also, I use this calc:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

It's pretty intuitive, adjustable to your starter limitations, and pretty consistent. I've ended up with starters that, after pitching, fermented so vigorously I had to empty my 1 gal blowoff bucket twice for one batch.

 

[bolus14]

I agree, I find the brewers friend calculator to be better, especially for yeast that you may have had in the fridge for more than a few months.

 

[brew703]

Well decanted and poured into a sanitized mason jar. All I got was 11.68 oz. need 19.3. In liters this translates as follows:
.57L pitch
.43L harvest
I'm short on the amount I need and had none to harvest.
I'm assuming the yeast did not multiply since I didn't hit my numbers.
Either I did something wrong or the yeast was no good.

 

[EarthwormJim]

I think the homebredad calc wants you to harvest the overbuild while the yeast are still in suspension before you crash and decant. If you add the pitch and harvest you get 1L which, I assume, is what your second step was. That's the way I have been doing it any way.

If you watned, you could still harvest. Just swirl the jar up and split it 60/40 before you pitch and put the 40%, maybe 5oz, back in the fridge for later. That should get you about 100b cells.

Like someone else said earlier, I probably would have left the yeast in the flask with the foil on top unless you had a reason not to. No sense switching to the jar and risking infection just to store it. I have let a starter go in the fridge like that for over a week with no issues.

 

[MerlinWerks]

Did you cold crash before decanting?

If you can, post a pic of what you ended up with.

 

[brew703]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1443089788.598674.jpg
This is what I harvested.

 

[brew703]

I think the homebredad calc wants you to harvest the overbuild while the yeast are still in suspension before you crash and decant. If you add the pitch and harvest you get 1L which, I assume, is what your second step was. That's the way I have been doing it any way.

If you watned, you could still harvest. Just swirl the jar up and split it 60/40 before you pitch and put the 40%, maybe 5oz, back in the fridge for later. That should get you about 100b cells.

Like someone else said earlier, I probably would have left the yeast in the flask with the foil on top unless you had a reason not to. No sense switching to the jar and risking infection just to store it. I have let a starter go in the fridge like that for over a week with no issues.

I assumed the pitch / harvest amount provided by Homebrew dads calc was to cool then decant then swirl and measure. If in fact those figures are before decanting then that would make a huge difference in the pitch amount. Guess I did the entire process wrong. Wish i knew for sure if I am supposed to measure when the yeast is still in suspension vs cooling, decanting then measuring.

I read that site and don't recall if it says how to so I'll refer back and see if it says anything.

Guess I could have left everything in the flask. Really had no reason to transfer. Just thought it was probably best to do so.

 

[MerlinWerks]

Well congratulations you have yeast!

Assuming that is a quart jar it looks like you have ~100 - 200 ml of slurry at the bottom.

I know you are trying to dial in an optimized pitch by using the calculators and that's cool, we measure just about everything else and use that info to hopefully improve our beer's taste and consistency. However, of all the things we measure at the homebrew level, yeast count/viability/pitch rate has to have the highest WAG factor, IMHO of course

The calculators are useful tools and make good starting points, but they are certainly not the final word and cannot substitute for experience and good notes.

IIRC, you are doing a 1.050ish 2.5 gal batch, I think you have plenty for that.

Once it's done, leave a little beer behind in the fermenter, swirl it up, and save it in sanitized mason jars. Depending on how much you get you can pitch that directly into a new batch if you brew again within a few weeks, make a new starter with it or both. I've read this yeast really starts to hit it's stride around gen 3...

P.S. Make sure you unscrew that band a little every once in awhile to relieve any residual pressure the yeast may develop. I like the white plastic lids and just leave them a little loose during the first week or so.

 

[Ungoliant]

Honestly man that looks like a good amount of yeast. I'd say pitch it and see what happens.

 

[brew703]

Well congratulations you have yeast!

Assuming that is a quart jar it looks like you have ~100 - 200 ml of slurry at the bottom.

I know you are trying to dial in an optimized pitch by using the calculators and that's cool, we measure just about everything else and use that info to hopefully improve our beer's taste and consistency. However, of all the things we measure at the homebrew level, yeast count/viability/pitch rate has to have the highest WAG factor, IMHO of course

The calculators are useful tools and make good starting points, but they are certainly not the final word and cannot substitute for experience and good notes.

IIRC, you are doing a 1.050ish 2.5 gal batch, I think you have plenty for that.

Once it's done, leave a little beer behind in the fermenter, swirl it up, and save it in sanitized mason jars. Depending on how much you get you can pitch that directly into a new batch if you brew again within a few weeks, make a new starter with it or both. I've read this yeast really starts to hit it's stride around gen 3...

P.S. Make sure you unscrew that band a little every once in awhile to relieve any residual pressure the yeast may develop. I like the white plastic lids and just leave them a little loose during the first week or so.

It's actually a pint size jar.

 

[brew703]

I really need to know how to interpret the calculator results. I take it as when I decant, that's the amount I measure and pitch. So I decanted and poured into a sanitized mason jar (pint size) and it did not equal to the amount I needed per the calculator. In this case, the amount harvested was not enough.

However, if I had taken the flask off the stir plate and measured the amount needed (before decanting), then I would have definitely had enough of the wort/yeast to make up the amount needed and also more then enough to harvest.

IMO, there are really no instructions on which way is the intended way to measure the amount needed.

In this specific case, I needed .57L which translates to 19.3oz, which seems like a lot for a 2.15 gallon batch but considering the yeast was old maybe it's accurate.

Should I have measured out 19.3oz prior to cooling and decanting from the flask?

 

[brew703]

One more comment I would like to make is if I had measured 19.3 oz at the time I removed the flask from the stirplate and placed that amount in a mason jar, then once cooled and decanted the amount would be much less than 19.3oz. So with that said, would I be correct to assume that whatever amount of yeast left in the mason jar prior to decanting then pitching would be a sufficient amount even though the ending amount would be less than 19.3oz once decanted?

 

[EarthwormJim]

The amount of yeast grown in the starter is primarily dependent on two things, the amount of yeast you start with and the amount of sugar you put in. The calculater will figure the amount of yeast you're starting with by figuring out the viability based on the manufacture date you enter. Likewise, it calculates the amount of sugar by having you create a certain amount of wort with a specific starting gravity, usually the around 1.037.

For it to figure out how many cells you want to end up with, you tell the calculator the gravity and volume of the batch you are going to brew and how many extra cells you want to harvest. The calculator uses all that information to tell you how much volume your starter should be to get the number of cells that you want. At the end of the day, you want to grow a certain number of cells.

Once the stater is finished fermenting, the volume is really only useful because it is something you can measure easily. You don't want to put 1L of starter into your beer, you want to pitch 200B cells. The difference between harvesting/pitching before the crash and after is that before the crash, you have 200B cells evenly distributed in 2L of beer. After crashing, those 200B cells are compacted into, maybe, the 300mL at the bottom of the flask and when you decant you aren't dumping yeast, just beer. There is still some yeast in suspension, but not enough to be concerned with. So now you have 200B cells in 300mL of beer.

The reason I said earlier to harvest before the crash is that, first, I think that is the number the calculator uses. When I have used it, the harvest and pitch amounts have always added up to the volume of my last step. I also always end up with more than I am supposed to have with multiple steps because I am usually conservative when decanting the first ones. The second reason is that it is easier to get the volumes closer when they are larger, at least for me. I can divde 2L into .5L and 1.5L a lot easier than 200mL into 50 and 150. Like Merlin said though, it really isn't that critical.

I wouldn't say you did the whole process wrong at all. Looks like you've got a lot of yeast there. You just took a different path than I've been taking. If you still want to harvest before brewing, just figure out how much volume you have now, shake it up and split it about 60/40 and put the 40 back in the fridge. Or pitch it all and harvest from the fermenter after the beer's done. Lots of ways to get where you want to go.

Hope this offers more help than confusion.

 

[brew703]

Thanks for the reply. Somewhat helps but still a little confused.

Anyway, what I'll do is shake up what I have and split 60/40 as you mentioned- will use the 60 and save the 40.

I had concerns about this yeast from the beginning only because of the mfg date and the calculator showing 28% viability (mr malty shows zero).
I'll give it a go and see what happens. If nothing then I will have a backup and pitch some rehydrated dry yeast.

 

[bolus14]

Some of us have used yeast stored in our fridges for a year or longer. When I do that I just start with a 250ml or 500ml starter and build it up. These yeast creatures are more resilient than a lot of people want to admit to.
I just used some of this strain that was in my fridge from last Sept. Fermented through Yoopers Oatmeal Stout and that is tasting fantastic, and pitched some of that slurry into a Founder's Breakfast Stout clone that's fermenting now, that very tasty as she sits now.

RDWAHAHB

 

[brew703]

The question is how much of what I have do i use? The amount the Homebrew Dad's calculator shows should be measured out before cooling or after cooling and decanting?
Trying to find an answer as I do not want to over or under pitch.

 

[eric19312]

These calculators are pretty rough approximations. You need to realize that. That is why they give such different results.

Only way to really dial it in for sure is to get into counting cells. Or perhaps stick with dry yeast.

I'd pitch what you have into the beer and call it good. If you want to save a bit for future batch pull out a tablespoon or so of the creamy yeast and make a 500 mL starter with that. Chill the 500ml, decant half the liquid and save in a half pint jar.

Using the brewer's friend calculator a tablespoon of clean slurry is 15 billion cells (or up to 5x that amount). If you grow that in a 500mL starter you will end up with 90billion cells. That is like a brand new smack pack.

 

[brew703]

Thanks. Guess I'll try the 500 ML starter with a T of the slurry. I did notice that each calculator is somewhat different in the amounts they say to pitch and also the viability of the yeat. MR Malty says the Denny's I have is zero percent viable where HBD shows 28%.

FWIW, Olan with Homebrew Dads calc says to measure out the harvested amount first while the yeast is still in suspension and then measure out the pitch amount all the while making sure the starter is completely mixed.

Did it the wrong way but know for next time.

 

[brew703]

These calculators are pretty rough approximations. You need to realize that. That is why they give such different results.

Only way to really dial it in for sure is to get into counting cells. Or perhaps stick with dry yeast.

I'd pitch what you have into the beer and call it good. If you want to save a bit for future batch pull out a tablespoon or so of the creamy yeast and make a 500 mL starter with that. Chill the 500ml, decant half the liquid and save in a half pint jar.

Using the brewer's friend calculator a tablespoon of clean slurry is 15 billion cells (or up to 5x that amount). If you grow that in a 500mL starter you will end up with 90billion cells. That is like a brand new smack pack.

If I took a tablespoon of the yeast and added it to 250-500ml of wort from tomorrow's brew day, would that work instead of making a new batch of starter wort?

 

[eric19312]

If I took a tablespoon of the yeast and added it to 250-500ml of wort from tomorrow's brew day, would that work instead of making a new batch of starter wort?

Yep wort is wort. If it is very high gravity dilute it.

 

[bolus14]

Yep wort is wort. If it is very high gravity dilute it.

+1, just test it with a hydro and dilute it down to 1.037 - 1.040 if it's higher than that.