Dedicated Spring Water Soda Water Machine Build

[sarink]

First pic - The original pigtail wire for connecting the tank to the motor (I'm not going to use this, see second pic)

Second pic - Rewired the carbonator tank float to a PC power cord so it is standalone and does not need to connect to the motor to get power (also, my ghetto soldering station )

Third pic - The T on the motor. Are you sure this needs to just remain open? It is on the inlet.. Although, how would I even get that off if I wanted? (didn't notice it until this pic - what's 250 PSI?!)

Fourth pic - What's inside that big (the smaller of the two big ones) brass nut on top of the carbonator motor (I was curious)

Fifth pic - Cleaning of the carbonator tank's float and all valves/fittings (also, it looks like I lied, there are screws on the bottom holding the the base on - it IS welded, but to a separate plate which this base is then screwed to)

 

[roger55]

Third pic - The T on the motor. Are you sure this needs to just remain open? It is on the inlet.. Although, how would I even get that off if I wanted? (didn't notice it until this pic - what's 250 PSI?!)

OK, I didn't realize you had a tee on the inlet side of the motor. You could use it instead of putting one onto the pressure tank if you wanted to. Then one hose off that tee to the pressure tank and other to the out side of the pressure pump. It doesn't matter which way you do it. I do not have a tee on the inlet side of the carb motor. Mine is at the pressure tank. In retrospect, it would have been less hose if I had done it the other way.

There needs to be a backflow preventer valve on the outlet side of your carb pump motor (the one with the small vinyl vent tube). I don't see yours. You have to have it. I took mine off thinking it wasn't needed. It is, my system wouldn't work without it.

http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=361_75&products_id=3099

 

[roger55]

Once again, I'm sure glad you are building your system and have been asking some questions that I didn't ask myself when I designed this in the first place.

The 250 psi label on your carbonator pump is the max relief pressure. Mine is labled with that too. However, the max pressure of the pump itself might be less. The pump on my carb motor is a Procon 141A100F11AA and the specs for it say it has a 200 psi relief valve and is 150 psi at 1/3 hp. Even the good braided beverage tubing has 200 psi rating at 70 degrees but only 100 psi at 100 degrees.
Since this is in my garage and I live in Texas, it gets warm in there in the summer. I think 150 psi will be over the limit of this hose in summer temperatures. I'm lucky my hose hasn't failed. Thanks to you, I've caught this.
I am thinking at this point I will change to a solid stainless tubing for the line from the carb pump to the carb tank.

I'm looking here to get an 8ft or so long piece of stainless tubing:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=6856&step=4&showunits=inches&id=20&top_cat=0
I've purchased from this company before.

 

[sarink]

Haha, no problem. Thanks for posting your project! I searched endlessly for a way to carbonate on demand and it was driving me nuts before finding this.

How do you control the output/serving pressure, so that soda doesn't come flying out your tap like a fire hose? In my case I'm using a solenoid valve, so I need something further upstream from the valve.

 

[roger55]

How do you control the output/serving pressure, so that soda doesn't come flying out your tap like a fire hose?

To my knowledge, you have to use a dispenser head especially designed for soda/seltzer like the one I have. That takes care of that issue.

Mine is the type where you pull it forward for a normal soda water and push it back for a jet stream for making an ice cream soda.

 

[sarink]

Hmm. What do you think about something like this? I can't find anything in 1/4" http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004MH7X0M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[roger55]

Hmm. What do you think about something like this? I can't find anything in 1/4" http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004MH7X0M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I really have no idea whether something like that would work or not. Seems like it would be trial-and-error and that could get expensive. And, what about a nozzle?? You still need that to be designed for the correct stream.
Why not just go with the soda dispenser that's designed to do all of this and be done with it? I'm not following your logic on why you would want to do anything else.
Why are you using a solenoid valve? What's wrong with just pulling the handle?

I think that a Soda Dispenser doesn't have a pressure reducer built into it. I would guess it's all in the valve and nozzle design.

 

[roger55]

I did a lot of searching and found what looks like a really good beverage tubing rated for high pressure. The 3/8" tubing is rated at 300 psi. (This will be one heck of a lot easier to install than rigid stainless would be.)

Here's a link to the info on this tubing:
http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/asset/Accuflex-Bevlex-Plus-180-Hose-Technical-Data-Sheet--40710GK.pdf

I just ordered a 100 ft reel of it along with some 15.7 mm ear clamps from Apex Beverage.

 

[sarink]

I think i will order some of that tubing as well. Good find.

I also got the official shurflo nylon fittings for the pump. Well see if they crack after time too!

This is one piece of a larger project I am working on. In the end, everything is hooked up to an arduino and should be fully automated. I've already got a high pressure solenoid valve and the ability to control it via software. I've been doing some research, but haven't found anything conclusive that I'd be confident in yet unfortunately. .... I wonder how those new touch screen coke machines work?

 

[roger55]

I think i will order some of that tubing as well. Good find.
I also got the official shurflo nylon fittings for the pump. Well see if they crack after time too!
This is one piece of a larger project I am working on. In the end, everything is hooked up to an arduino and should be fully automated. I've already got a high pressure solenoid valve and the ability to control it via software. I've been doing some research, but haven't found anything conclusive that I'd be confident in yet unfortunately. .... I wonder how those new touch screen coke machines work?

I'm still not envisioning exactly how you are wanting your system to work, but have you looked into the Wunder-Bar gun setups? Could you adapt one of their guns to work with your software control?

 

[sarink]

Basically exactly like yours. Except instead of pulling the tap, I push a button on a website. This button will keep my "tap" (high pressure solenoid valve) open until it detects X amount of liquid has passed through, then it will close again.

However... I need the pressure be controlled, because when I send the signal to open the valve I don't want soda spraying out at 100psi. If only I had a way to reduce the output pressure between the McCann tank and my solenoid valve, everything would work great.

 

[roger55]

...I need the pressure be controlled, because when I send the signal to open the valve I don't want soda spraying out at 100psi. If only I had a way to reduce the output pressure between the McCann tank and my solenoid valve, everything would work great.

If you have a correct type nozzle, you wont need to reduce the pressure as the nozzle design handles it.

 

[Taz420NJ]

I came across this forum doing some research for my own postmix soda system (using Wunderbar guns), and I just had to join into this thread..

First of all, Roger, thank you for the inspiration to simply stick the carbonator tank into the fridge. I was looking for a shortcut that would save me having to spend an extra hundred plus bucks on a cold plate or jockey box coils.. I have also just purchased a McCann's BigMac ($112 shipped, used but good condition), and I can't wait to get started on it.

I didn't see if anyone asked yet, but how long is your CO2 tank lasting just making seltzer? I will be using Flojet CO2 powered syrup pumps in mine, so I know it will go faster, but since there's not much difference in price here for filling a 20# vs a 50# tank (beyond the difference in the initial tank purchase), I'm wondering which I should go with.. It will be mostly soda water use.


Also, I understand what sarink is trying to do.. Have you ever seen the fountains that McDonalds has where they have one head with a bunch of buttons? Or the new Coke "Freestyle" machines they are putting into Wendy's (and probably others, but Wendy's is the only place I've seen them yet) with the touchscreens? He's going in that direction, where the brixing is done by the computer - measuring the syrup dose and water dose, rather than having to constantly balance the soda to water ratio. It also seems like he is going for more of the "old fashioned" soda method, where the pressure of the water mixes the drink in the cup, rather than dispensing them together. Since the water is controlled by solenoid, he can't use the traditional push-pull head.. I would say simply restricting the flow should slow it down.. Maybe a half-closed ball valve, or a pair of reducers inline (drop it to 1/8" then back to 1/4"?)

Anyways, glad to be here, looking forward to trying some of the soda recipes.. And maybe eventually trying my hand at brewing!

 

[roger55]

I didn't see if anyone asked yet, but how long is your CO2 tank lasting just making seltzer? I will be using Flojet CO2 powered syrup pumps in mine, so I know it will go faster, but since there's not much difference in price here for filling a 20# vs a 50# tank (beyond the difference in the initial tank purchase), I'm wondering which I should go with.. It will be mostly soda water use.

Welcome and thank you! Glad you are joining the discussion.

I've got the 20 lb tank and I'm still on the first fill. So, I don't know the answer yet but it is going to last a long time.

I worked in a cafe back in my high school days and remember that their soda machine used a 20 lb tank. Seems to me that for home use anything larger would be overkill.

 

[Taz420NJ]

Hey Roger, I got my carbonator, and when I took the terminal cover off the motor, it has the probe wired inline with the white (neutral).. Now where I went to school, it is a HUGE no-no to switch the neutral in any device..

Can you tell me if yours was wired the same way or maybe mine had just been monkeyed with or it was a factory error (it has a crimp cap on the joint, and while most people wouldn't use those to do a hack job, you never know).. I just want to be sure before I hook it up.

Thanks!

 

[roger55]

The picture of mine is in photo #26. It's the same as yours.

It is the hot (black) that is switched. The neutral goes to straight to the motor. Both the white and black wires in the wire to the sensor switch carry the hot.
Those type of crimp caps are also standard for electrical devices like this.

 

[Taz420NJ]

That pic must not have loaded when I was originally reading the thread because I don't remember seeing that.. But as a matter of fact, on yours as well it is not the hot, it IS the neutral that is switched. Look again - the black (hot) from the power inlet cord connects directly to the motor terminal. The white (neutral) from the power inlet cord connects to the black of the probe pigtail, and then the white from the pigtail comes back and connects to the other motor terminal.... So it is definitely switching the neutral..

I just can't fathom why they would wire the motors like this because it violates electric code...

 

[roger55]

Looked again and you are right, the lower wire in my photo is the one that goes to the switch. I don't know why they do it this way but with 120V, it's not going to make any difference to switch the white wire. You aren't supposed to use GFCI's with electric motors so does it make it against code? I don't know. It might be interesting to call McCann and ask if they have a reason or not.

 

[mentor1]

Roger55 - thanks for accomplishing what many of us were hoping to cobble together, but never seem to get around to it. I'm one of those bottle shakers who is looking for a better solution, and I think you have hit on a workable design using common parts.

Did you look at Lancer for carbonators? They have compact units. Or, is McCann so common the price can't be beat for availability?

Did you consider one of the smaller undercounter fridges instead of a full size unit? Is there something I'm missing if I go smaller?

Thanks for all details

Mentor1

 

[roger55]

Did you look at Lancer for carbonators? They have compact units. Or, is McCann so common the price can't be beat for availability?

I really wasn't looking at a particular brand.
I just looked for good deals on ebay and found a unused one that happened to be a McCann. McCann makes smaller units than the one I have too.

Did you consider one of the smaller undercounter fridges instead of a full size unit? Is there something I'm missing if I go smaller?

Mine isn't really a full-sized fridge. I'd say it's an apartment sized unit. A smaller fridge would work but I like the fact I can store the extra water jugs in the larger one. My wife likes having the freezer for storing pecans too. Since mine is in the garage, it wasn't necessary to go with small fridge either.

Thanks for all details
Mentor1

You are welcome. Keep us informed if you build a system.

 

[sarink]

You know the small round/hollow metal piece that sits inside a check valve (it holds an o ring, and the ball/spring sit inside of it)? What do you call those? One of mine is broken, and I'm having a really hard time locating a new one. Any ideas?

Also, I've noticed some what looks like rusty water very slowly dripping off of the pressure tank (same tank as you, though I must have something just a little bit loose). Has this happened to you? Should that tank be aluminum instead of steel?

 

[roger55]

You know the small round/hollow metal piece that sits inside a check valve (it holds an o ring, and the ball/spring sit inside of it)? What do you call those? One of mine is broken, and I'm having a really hard time locating a new one. Any ideas?

Also, I've noticed some what looks like rusty water very slowly dripping off of the pressure tank (same tank as you, though I must have something just a little bit loose). Has this happened to you? Should that tank be aluminum instead of steel?

Can't help you on the check valve.

Noticed no rust with mine. Never seen an aluminum pressure tank.

 

[roger55]

I didn't see if anyone asked yet, but how long is your CO2 tank lasting just making seltzer? I will be using Flojet CO2 powered syrup pumps in mine, so I know it will go faster, but since there's not much difference in price here for filling a 20# vs a 50# tank (beyond the difference in the initial tank purchase), I'm wondering which I should go with.. It will be mostly soda water use.

I just finally had to refill my #20 cylinder. It lasted from 3/8/13 to 3/25/14 (today). So it lasted me a whole year + a couple of weeks. I'd estimate my wife and I drink about 3 gallons a week so if that is accurate, then a 20# cylinder is good for about 160 gallons of soda water.

 

[roger55]

Those of you that had been following this thread may remember that I reported that some of my tubing was balooning from too much pressure and heat in the garage. I had purchased higher pressure rated tubing a while back but just got to installing it yesterday. I was afraid if I put it off much longer especially with another summer coming up and the garage getting hot again that it would burst on me.

I also made a little change in how I ran the tubing. I changed it so the tee is no longer underneath the pressure tank. I put a new tee close to the pressure pump. There is one less hose to run through the wall this way. I also took this opportunity to elimate all my PVC fittings as I did have a litte trouble before with a couple of them cracking.

I'm pretty confident that I've got all the bugs in my system worked out now and it's going to be reliable for a long time to come.

 

[sarink]

Can you tell us specifically what sort of tubing/where you got it from?

What fittings did you use on your waterworks tank? I've seen some rust dripping from the bottom of mine and I'm not sure why/what to do about it?

What did you use to fill the hole in the fridge? I haven't filled mine and I think the outside air is causing condensation and is the reason the inside of my fridge is so damp (also, perhaps responsible/related to the rusty drip from the waterworks tank?) I want to fill the hole with something that isn't totally permanent, so that I can easily swap hoses in the future if I need to, or take it apart for maintenance or something.

Thanks!

 

[roger55]

Can you tell us specifically what sort of tubing/where you got it from?
What fittings did you use on your waterworks tank? I've seen some rust dripping from the bottom of mine and I'm not sure why/what to do about it?
What did you use to fill the hole in the fridge? I haven't filled mine and I think the outside air is causing condensation and is the reason the inside of my fridge is so damp (also, perhaps responsible/related to the rusty drip from the waterworks tank?) I want to fill the hole with something that isn't totally permanent, so that I can easily swap hoses in the future if I need to, or take it apart for maintenance or something.
Thanks!

I got THIS 3/8" tubing I got and I got it from Apex Beverage along with 15.7 mm ear clamps.
Thats just an ordinary galvanized 3/4" elbow on the bottom of the tank and then a nipple and a reducing bell for the brass barb fitting.

I'm not getting any condensation or drips in my fridge at all. I used that spray foam stuff from Home Depot to seal up the hole. Worked really well.

 

[carrera32]

Thats just an ordinary galvanized 3/4" elbow on the bottom of the tank and then a nipple and a reducing bell for the brass barb fitting.

I also built a home system, but you may want to consider replacing the galvanized elbow. I believe that metal is not safe for drinking water:

http://www.superpages.com/supertips/galvanized-pipe.html

"Although galvanized pipe has been previously used to transport drinking water, now is is more often used for sewage and irrigation plumbing. Most of these pipes contain lead, which make them unsuitable for drinking water. However, galvanized pipes can be replaced with newer lead-free models, and may still be used for non-drinking water plumbing."

 

[roger55]

I also built a home system, but you may want to consider replacing the galvanized elbow. I believe that metal is not safe for drinking water:

http://www.superpages.com/supertips/galvanized-pipe.html

"Although galvanized pipe has been previously used to transport drinking water, now is is more often used for sewage and irrigation plumbing. Most of these pipes contain lead, which make them unsuitable for drinking water. However, galvanized pipes can be replaced with newer lead-free models, and may still be used for non-drinking water plumbing."

Actually, that's is misleading.
Unused galvanized pipe does not contain lead. However, used galvanized pipe can have accumulated and release lead if they've ever been used with lead service pipes. Galvanized pipe is still considered safe and still sometimes used for potable water.

Galvanized pipe can and does corrode, especially when the pH of the water is less than 7. It's one reason why it's not used very much anymore. The pH of the water I'm using is above 7.

I used that fitting because I had it on hand. It does have a limited life but on the order of 40 years. Not worth changing out. I won't be alive that long.

 

[carrera32]

Actually, that's is misleading.
Unused galvanized pipe does not contain lead. However, used galvanized pipe can have accumulated and release lead if they've ever been used with lead service pipes. Galvanized pipe is still considered safe and still sometimes used for potable water.

Galvanized pipe can and does corrode, especially when the pH of the water is less than 7. It's one reason why it's not used very much anymore. The pH of the water I'm using is above 7.

I used that fitting because I had it on hand. It does have a limited life but on the order of 40 years. Not worth changing out. I won't be alive that long.

Good to know. I played it safe and used lead free brass. Nice work on your project!

 

[bryanf650]

Beautiful build. I've been contemplating building a continuous system with the carbonator tank in the fridge to avoid all the cold plate/flash chiller hassles. I want to add mine to an existing bar and was wondering if you could simply connect the input to the carbonator from the house water supply. Obviously it wouldn't come in cold, but I don't anticipate using it to continuously produce seltzer, just a few glasses a night.

Thoughts?