Decoction vs. No-Sparge

[korndog]

i was reading a transcript form a talk given at 2005 AHA regarding the comparison of the two techniques for brewing lagers and gaining favorable malt profiles. It was purported that no-sparge was a reasonable alternative to decoction. I do a fair amount of no-sparge brewing of ales, but am rather green when it comes to lagers. I am planning to brew two batches of Munich Helles using both techniques as a study. Any discussion would be appreciated. A specific question I have for the no-sparge is the mash schedule. I was thinking about 130F for 10 minutes, 20 minutes at 147F, and 154F to conversion. I am using 96% Weyermann Pilsner malt.


Thanks
KD

 

[BigEd]

i was reading a transcript form a talk given at 2005 AHA regarding the comparison of the two techniques for brewing lagers and gaining favorable malt profiles. It was purported that no-sparge was a reasonable alternative to decoction. I do a fair amount of no-sparge brewing of ales, but am rather green when it comes to lagers. I am planning to brew two batches of Munich Helles using both techniques as a study. Any discussion would be appreciated. A specific question I have for the no-sparge is the mash schedule. I was thinking about 130F for 10 minutes, 20 minutes at 147F, and 154F to conversion. I am using 96% Weyermann Pilsner malt.


Thanks
KD

Favorable malt profiles, whatever that means, comes from good malt. You are off to a good start as the Weyermann Pilsner is good stuff. Sorry, but equating sparge technique with decoction mashing sounds like pure BS to me, a classic example of apples & oranges if you will. The mash schedule sounds pretty good.

 

[korndog]

Favorable malt profiles, whatever that means, comes from good malt. You are off to a good start as the Weyermann Pilsner is good stuff. Sorry, but equating sparge technique with decoction mashing sounds like pure BS to me, a classic example of apples & oranges if you will. The mash schedule sounds pretty good.

Geez, I have had some pretty poor lagers that were made with perfectly good malt. Would you care to elaborate on why it is BS? Have you ever done either?

KD

 

[menschmaschine]

korndog, is the transcription available on the internet? (could you post the link?) I'm initially skeptical too. While there is something to be said for whether or not decoctions are even needed to get that classic German/Continental malt profile (many German breweries not doing them anymore), I've read about the science behind them and what happens in a decoction that creates these characteristics. So, I'm wondering what in a no-sparge would equally create these characteristics.

As for your mash schedule, you can probably skip that 147 rest and raise your 130 rest a couple degrees, like 132-134 (and make it 20-30 min. instead of 10) to accomplish the same thing.

 

[korndog]

korndog, is the transcription available on the internet? (could you post the link?) I'm initially skeptical too. While there is something to be said for whether or not decoctions are even needed to get that classic German/Continental malt profile (many German breweries not doing them anymore), I've read about the science behind them and what happens in a decoction that creates these characteristics. So, I'm wondering what in a no-sparge would equally create these characteristics.

As for your mash schedule, you can probably skip that 147 rest and raise your 130 rest a couple degrees, like 132-134 (and make it 20-30 min. instead of 10) to accomplish the same thing.

I'll look around for it. Kutskill was the author. I must say that I no-sparge ales frequently and consider it a valid technique. I do a mash-out infusion to full volume. Yes, I spend a couple of dollars more per batch, but I feel I get really good wort this way. I also don't risk over-sparging which I think is a BIG problem in many homebrews. People get really angry with me for some reason when I bring up no-sparge brewing. I think single infusion batch sparging produces similar results with a little more risk. The theory is that higher gravity runnings have little risk of containing undesirable compounds extracted from husks. These Tannins mask melanoidins, and so without any risk of tannin extraction you would have a "maltier" wort. I think certain beers, particularly ones using roasted grain benefit greatly from this technique. Certain grains seem very susceptible to astringency and I think they should not be sparged aggressively. Here is a quote from the late Geroge Fix who originally kicked up the dust on this subject:

“I have found that to get a very high malt flavor the sparge must be omitted as well. This is an expensive way to brew since the amount of grains needed must be increased by a factor ~4/3. Nevertheless, some of the world's great ales and lagers have been brewed this way, and I have found it works in homebrewing as well for special beers. Clearly this is not the way to brew our standard beers.”

Anyway, this is one of those debates that usually has me in the very small minority. That's fine with me since I consider it one of my "secret weapons".

 

[Yooper]

The theory is that higher gravity runnings have little risk of containing undesirable compounds extracted from husks. These Tannins mask melanoidins, and so without any risk of tannin extraction you would have a "maltier" wort. I think certain beers, particularly ones using roasted grain benefit greatly from this technique. Certain grains seem very susceptible to astringency and I think they should not be sparged aggressively.
Anyway, this is one of those debates that usually has me in the very small minority. That's fine with me since I consider it one of my "secret weapons".

You know, that makes sense. I think you may have found a "maltier" wort that way, but I'm not certain it could be compared to a decoction. I'd like Kaiser's input on this- he's got the chemistry understanding that I just simply do not.

I thought that the decoctions were "maltier" due to malliard reaction as well as extracting more flavor from the malt. Am I incorrect in simplifing it that much?

 

[bradsul]

Sounds interesting. Also sounds like you'd need a larger than average MLT in order to pull it off. I'd also be interested in seeing the transcription if it's located.

 

[korndog]

You know, that makes sense. I think you may have found a "maltier" wort that way, but I'm not certain it could be compared to a decoction. I'd like Kaiser's input on this- he's got the chemistry understanding that I just simply do not.

I thought that the decoctions were "maltier" due to malliard reaction as well as extracting more flavor from the malt. Am I incorrect in simplifing it that much?

That may be true Yooper. I'm just not sure how it compares to decoction.
Yes, I would like to hear from Kaiser on this too.

 

[menschmaschine]

People get really angry with me for some reason when I bring up no-sparge brewing.

I can't believe you brought this up. I am SO MAD AT YOU! *shakes fist*

Seriously, I love learning and talking about things like this. Whatever the outcome, it looks like I'll learn something new (new to me anyway). I hope Kaiser chimes in.

KAISER, come on over here! Schnell! Schnell!

 

[BigEd]

Geez, I have had some pretty poor lagers that were made with perfectly good malt. Would you care to elaborate on why it is BS? Have you ever done either?

KD

You are correct, it is entirely possible to make bad beer with good ingredients. It's done all the time.
What is BS, in my opinion, is equating a sparge technique with decoction mashing. What do they have to do with one another??? I've made a lot of lagers and most people think they are pretty damned good. All of my lagers utilize a decoction mash. That in itself does not make them good or bad, you can make good lagers without. It is the way I choose to make the beer. If a brewer chooses a particular sparge technique that works for their beer that is a subjective choice to improve the product or procedure. However, whatever enhancements you get from a decoction mash are not going to be realized with a change in sparge technique.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I think this is an awesome thread! Prosted and subscribed!

I am collecting info for my journey into the world of Helles brewing. After reading this thread I feel like this may be my first shot at a mash schedule:

1) Dough in a 99º for 20m
2) Raise temp to 133º via direct heat and hold for 20m
3) Pull a portion of the mash for a decoction step to the sacc rest at 155º and hold for 50m
4) Infusion step to mash-out with the full boil volume for a no sparge drain.

I have heard that the decoctions provide diminishing returns with the multiple decoctions but that at least a single decoction has substantial benefits. It seems to me that this combo technique could be the ticket.


What do you all think of this?

 

[korndog]

I think this is an awesome thread! Prosted and subscribed!

I am collecting info for my journey into the world of Helles brewing. After reading this thread I feel like this may be my first shot at a mash schedule:

1) Dough in a 99º for 20m
2) Raise temp to 133º via direct heat and hold for 20m
3) Pull a portion of the mash for a decoction step to the sacc rest at 155º and hold for 50m
4) Infusion step to mash-out with the full boil volume for a no sparge drain.

I have heard that the decoctions provide diminishing returns with the multiple decoctions but that at least a single decoction has substantial benefits. It seems to me that this combo technique could be the ticket.
What do you all think of this?

Why not; sounds good to me. What are you using for efficiency plug in?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

No idea. I haven't brew this yet, and won't be for some time. I just read the Helles style book from Brewers Pubs but want to read Daniels before getting into it. I haven't done lagers yet and only got the itch to start a month or so ago. I like to do lots of research before starting.... either that or its because I love my ales and always want to be brewing those....

 

[korndog]

However, whatever enhancements you get from a decoction mash are not going to be realized with a change in sparge technique.

Yeah, well I guess you are stuck with that opinion. I'm not convinced, and that's why I am going to run this experiment. While the chemical reaction might not be the same, there is a possibility that the end result will be similar.
Now don't get me wrong; I do decoction mashes from time to time. I've read Noonan, and understand his fans are bent on decoction mashing, and I am one of them. That doesn't keep me from trying other methods.

KD

 

[korndog]

No idea. I haven't brew this yet, and won't be for some time. I just read the Helles style book from Brewers Pubs but want to read Daniels before getting into it. I haven't done lagers yet and only got the itch to start a month or so ago. I like to do lots of research before starting.... either that or its because I love my ales and always want to be brewing those....

The only reason I ask is that I use about 58% for my no-sparge brews (typically) and wonder how the decoction will affect it in your experiment. I got something like 88% efficiency out of a triple decoction recently which was WAY over my normal expectation.

 

[BigEd]

Yeah, well I guess you are stuck with that opinion. I'm not convinced, and that's why I am going to run this experiment. While the chemical reaction might not be the same, there is a possibility that the end result will be similar.
Now don't get me wrong; I do decoction mashes from time to time. I've read Noonan, and understand his fans are bent on decoction mashing, and I am one of them. That doesn't keep me from trying other methods.

KD

I think, perhaps, that you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not against other methods or experimentation. The method you mention may change or improve the beer, I am not saying it won't. However, the changes/improvements/differences it may provide are just not going to be the same as a decoction. The Maillard Reaction products produced from a decoction are not going to spontaneously appear in a no-sparge beer.

 

[menschmaschine]

1) Dough in a 99º for 20m

You only need this rest if your water pH is a bit high. It would probably be beneficial for any water pH over 6.5-7

2) Raise temp to 133º via direct heat and hold for 20m

You only need to hold this for about 5 minutes before pulling the decoction. The remainder of your mash (not decocted) will get plenty of time at this temp.

3) Pull a portion of the mash for a decoction step to the sacc rest at 155º and hold for 50m

You only need to hold this temp for about 10 minutes prior to boiling (for 5 min).

 

[TexLaw]

Korndog, I am totally with you on this matter. As you alluded to Fix, this is not a new though, either. However, in this current, fashionable environment of maximizing efficiency, it's almost like recommending a bacon cheeseburger for a Seder.

I've done some no-sparge batches, and they've been great. I haven't noticed anything special over my normal batches, though. I shoot for, roughly, 75% efficiency out of my mash and don't care for anything more. When I've tried to push it, I've not been happy with the results. Like you say, Korndog, the couple of bucks is worth it.


TL

 

[Piotr]

I've done some no-sparge batches, and they've been great. I haven't noticed anything special over my normal batches, though. I shoot for, roughly, 75% efficiency out of my mash and don't care for anything more. When I've tried to push it, I've not been happy with the results. Like you say, Korndog, the couple of bucks is worth it.
TL

I could'n decide to switch to full no-sparge. But it altered my technique somewhat - now I do water-infusion mash-out, and then I fly-sparge birefly with limted amount of water, my last runnings have 5-7 Plato.

I'm getting 70% efficiency this way. I wonder, what is the efficiency of no-sparge?

 

[korndog]

I could'n decide to switch to full no-sparge. But it altered my technique somewhat - now I do water-infusion mash-out, and then I fly-sparge birefly with limted amount of water, my last runnings have 5-7 Plato.

I'm getting 70% efficiency this way. I wonder, what is the efficiency of no-sparge?

That's cool. I think the idea is to be careful about over-sparging. there are formulas for calculating no-sparge, but I run about 56-58% on my system and about 65% for single batch sparge. These are low for most of the guys around here.

 

[korndog]

Korndog, it's almost like recommending a bacon cheeseburger for a Seder.
TL

Lol. Good analogy Pass the matzoh.