Decoction schedule from New Brewing Lager Beer

[nexy_sm]

Hi all,

I wonder if anybody tried to stick to the Greg Noonan's decoction schedule variant 2 from his New Brewing Lager Beer book.
There he suggests for modern modified malts the following schedule:
Mash in at 55 (centigrades) for combined protein/beta amylase rest
After 5 minutes pulling a heavy decoction, heat to 70-71 C
Rest for 10 minutes, heat the decoction to boil
Return the decoction to the main mash to hit 70-71 C, and after 15 minutes start with Iodine probes.

Did anybody try this exactly like described? I am a bit concerned about the fermentability, but at the end who am I to question Mr. Noonan, he wouldn't write something he didn't try I suppose.

Cheers

 

[chthon]

I did decoctions like this. It helps fermentability.

When he says "pull a heavy decoction", that is one with much grain and not so much wort. Most of your enzymes stay in the wort, so no problem there.

But I also tried to get from around 50°C as fast as possible to 59° C, so as not to have a too long protein rest.

 

[dmtaylor]

Interesting! I haven't done this one but it appears it will make a decent wort, basically mashing at two extremes of the mash temperature range. Short & sweet, no messing around. If you want to try something to compare against single infusion to learn something about decoction while keeping it as simple as possible, this looks like a fair one to try. I might give it a go in future if I remember (which I won't).

 

[hottpeper13]

No ,never tried this procedure but am doing a double decoction today for a Check Pils. With the highly modified malts and a slow induction burner I fear doughing in at 122* and pulling a decoction for the sacc rest would take around 1+ hrs. To keep the 122 rest at 15-20 min I dough in at 122* at 1/1 ratio and add boiling liquor to get to 143* then pull my first decoction.

 

[nexy_sm]

So, if somebody is interested, I tried the schedule as described above and by Greg Noonan. Pretty straightforward. Final gravity 1.018-1.020, 95% pilsner malt and 5% carahell. I suppose if one would go slower with the decoction through the b amyase range, the wort would be more fermentable.

 

[Red over White]

So, if somebody is interested, I tried the schedule as described above and by Greg Noonan. Pretty straightforward. Final gravity 1.018-1.020, 95% pilsner malt and 5% carahell. I suppose if one would go slower with the decoction through the b amyase range, the wort would be more fermentable.

What I found is that decoction beers drink like a well attenuated beer, despite what the hydrometer sez. The malty, well rounded mouthfeel are the bonus for punishing yourself.

 

[cactusgarrett]

What's the point of holding the thick decoction at 70C when the majority of the enzymes are back in the liquid in the main mash? Is there an expected appreciable amount of sugars still in the grain that need conversion? Enough that it would make a difference compared to, say, the more standard "pull and boil" method?

 

[Protos]

Mash in at 55 (centigrades) for combined protein/beta amylase rest
- After 5 minutes pulling a heavy decoction: 5'
- heat to 70-71 C: 5' + 10' = 15'
- Rest for 10 minutes: 15' + 10'=25'
- heat the decoction to boil: 25' + 10' = 35'
Return the decoction to the main mash to hit 70-71 C,
and after 15 minutes start with Iodine probes: 35' + 15' = 50'

So, what we get from this schedule is standard 35' for the protein rest in the mashtun and 25' combined for two Dextrinization rests. Which seems to be borderline enough for a successful converson. The only thing that may look a bit confusing is the absence of a proper Saccharification rest, relegated to the 55C range, at which the 35' rest looks like a bit too short (but well, who am I to question Mr. Noonan, if he says that's enough then it most probably is).
Probably such a schedule makes a great compromise for an industrial setup. I doubt though if it's of the same interest to a homebrewer who isn't much concerned with speedy turnover.

 

[hottpeper13]

I would think that the boiling of the grist makes conversion faster then your typical step mash,it's like super gelatinised. I do a 2 step decoction, mash in at 148* 10 min,pull most of the grist. Bring to 160* rest 30 min,boil 30 min then return to bring mash to 160*.
The grist is way more fluid after the 160* rest and easier to stir with lower heat input.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I would think that the boiling of the grist makes conversion faster then your typical step mash

This is the general idea, from what I understand. Destroying the kernels during the boil makes the sugars more readily accessible when they get returned to the main mash. My question is more about if there're enough enzymes in the thick decoction portion to convert, making the pause at 158°F (70°C) worthwhile. If there aren't sufficient enzymes present to convert, that pause is basically a waste of time, no?

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Did anybody try this exactly like described? I am a bit concerned about the fermentability, but at the end who am I to question Mr. Noonan, he wouldn't write something he didn't try I suppose.

Here is your answer...

So, if somebody is interested, I tried the schedule as described above and by Greg Noonan. Pretty straightforward. Final gravity 1.018-1.020, 95% pilsner malt and 5% carahell. I suppose if one would go slower with the decoction through the b amyase range, the wort would be more fermentable.

You will get full conversion because you mash at 158 (70c) for as long as needed to obtain a negative iodine test (no starch present). At 158 the alpha amylase enzymes will not denature and will rapidly convert any starch into sugars.

However, since you are mashing initially in the protein rest range (131f, 55c) you will have very, very slow and low beta amylase activity until you hit the 158f temperature rest which will denature it quickly.

In other words, you will get full conversion, but with a lot of longer chain, unfermentable sugars, which will result in a higher finishing gravity which is what Nexy_sm experienced.

 

[hottpeper13]

I'm gonna say the 158* rest makes a difference because the mash is thinner after. This must be from more liquefaction,if it's just releasing more starch it would congeal not loosen. No proof ,just my thoughts.

 

[Spivey24]

I would think that the boiling of the grist makes conversion faster then your typical step mash,it's like super gelatinised. I do a 2 step decoction, mash in at 148* 10 min,pull most of the grist. Bring to 160* rest 30 min,boil 30 min then return to bring mash to 160*.
The grist is way more fluid after the 160* rest and easier to stir with lower heat input.

What is the purpose of this 30 minute rest at 160 of the grist? Seems like you are running a secondary mash which is a pain. I guess I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just pull and boil and return to main mash.

 

[cactusgarrett]

What is the purpose of this 30 minute rest at 160 of the grist? Seems like you are running a secondary mash which is a pain. I guess I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just pull and boil and return to main mash.

Right, especially when most of the enzymes are back in the main mash.

 

[hottpeper13]

I must have to say this twice,mostly because nobody listens to me ,so here it gose again. The 160* rest makes the grist looser which means it's doing something and as a bonus it's easier to stir,uses less heat and less likely to scorch. all positive things for 30 min. An extra 30 min in the brewery Woo Hoo.

 

[hottpeper13]

Liquefaction Baby!

 

[Bassman2003]

Hottpeper, have you considered doing a 148F rest, then doing a 160F rest, then pulling a portion of the grist and boiling, then returning this portion to lift the mash up to mash out temps? You basically get all of the mash conversion finished before you do any decocting. The boiling is mainly for the effects of exploding the grain, not any kind of temperature assist. Sort of a modern decoction mash schedule.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I must have to say this twice,mostly because nobody listens to me ,so here it gose again. The 160* rest makes the grist looser which means it's doing something and as a bonus it's easier to stir,uses less heat and less likely to scorch. all positive things for 30 min. An extra 30 min in the brewery Woo Hoo.

We're (at least I am) talking about the pause at 160F of the decocted portion, not the main mash.

 

[Spivey24]

I must have to say this twice,mostly because nobody listens to me ,so here it gose again. The 160* rest makes the grist looser which means it's doing something and as a bonus it's easier to stir,uses less heat and less likely to scorch. all positive things for 30 min. An extra 30 min in the brewery Woo Hoo.

Yea, I get the reason for the 160 degrees, I don’t get the reason for the 30 minute rest. What does it do beyond going straight to boil. There must some point to it. Or maybe not…

 

[doug293cz]

Yea, I get the reason for the 160 degrees, I don’t get the reason for the 30 minute rest. What does it do beyond going straight to boil. There must some point to it. Or maybe not…

Decoction does more than just allow you to raise the temp of the mash when the boiling hot grain is added back to the main mash:

1. You get Maillard reaction products which add color and flavor to the wort,
2. You get accelerated gelatinization of any un-gelatinized starch, making the starch ready for hydrolysis by the amylase enzymes when added back to the main mash. The higher the temperature, the faster gelatinization occurs. My belief is that this is the most important factor for increased mash efficiency reported by many decoction brewers. Starch that isn't gelatinized cannot by hydrolyzed to sugar. The boiled grain is most likely completely gelatinized.
3. You get accelerated hydrolysis of the gelatinized starch, as all amylase enzymes work faster the higher the temperature, until they are fully denatured. This is the process that leads to more liquification of the decoction.

The 160 hold allows more of 2 & 3 to occur before all of the amylase is denatured.

Brew on

 

[hottpeper13]

Hottpeper, have you considered doing a 148F rest, then doing a 160F rest, then pulling a portion of the grist and boiling, then returning this portion to lift the mash up to mash out temps? You basically get all of the mash conversion finished before you do any decocting. The boiling is mainly for the effects of exploding the grain, not any kind of temperature assist. Sort of a modern decoction mash schedule.

I did this for a Pilsner to shorten the day but the flavor was not there. Then I did a step mash and still not the same. I went back to the double and haven't looked back.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. I am do not quite understand where the double takes place. Here is your initial post:

I would think that the boiling of the grist makes conversion faster then your typical step mash,it's like super gelatinised. I do a 2 step decoction, mash in at 148* 10 min,pull most of the grist. Bring to 160* rest 30 min,boil 30 min then return to bring mash to 160*.

It seems like you are only doing a single decoction after a 30 min. rest at 160F. The main mash stays at 148F and is brought up to 160F when the decoction is returned. Where does the 2nd decoction take place? Can you clarify?

 

[hottpeper13]

I was emphasizing the 30 min rest at 160 * for the decoction grist,you guys seem to think it doesn't matter. When the 30 min main mash rest is finished I pull the second one and bring to a boil immediately for 30 min then add back for a mashout. If I'm using 50% or more of wheat I dough in at 122 with a 1:1 ratio,then add boiling liquor to get to 148* and then do my decoction from there. In my system it would take too long to do a decoction from 122* to 148* because it would include a rest at 148*/30 min then 160*/30 min then boil/30 min. That would be 1.5 hours at 122* ,not happening in my brewery!

 

[Bassman2003]

I have never passed any judgement on your mashing... I think what is tripping me up is the verbiage. From what I read, you are doing a three step mash (148F, 160F & 170F) with a single decoction between the 148F & 160F temps. Is that correct? A double decoction in my book is two separate pulls of grist with boiling for each.

I was just suggesting a similar approach that might be easier.

 

[Bobby_M]

Can anyone provide a source or empirical data that suggests enzymes are mostly in the mash liquor and not in the thicker mash? Intuitively, I wouldn't come to that conclusion. I can think of a few ways to test the theory, but maybe that work has already been done. My assumption has always been that decoctions do denature a substantial portion of the enzymes, but the combined mash still has enough diastatic power to get it done.

I just did Gordon Strong's Czech Amber recipe with the prescribed double decoction and that also has the decoction pull run through 145F and 158F rests prior to the boiling step and I assume it was to be sure not to denature off 1/3rd of the enzymes that would otherwise require a much longer rest in the main mash post decoction.

 

[hottpeper13]

I was emphasizing the 30 min rest at 160 * for the decoction grist,you guys seem to think it doesn't matter. When the 30 min main mash rest is finished I pull the second one and bring to a boil immediately for 30 min then add back for a mashout. If I'm using 50% or more of wheat I dough in at 122 with a 1:1 ratio,then add boiling liquor to get to 148* and then do my decoction from there. In my system it would take too long to do a decoction from 122* to 148* because it would include a rest at 148*/30 min then 160*/30 min then boil/30 min. That would be 1.5 hours at 122* ,not happening in my brewery!

What about this don't you understand Bassman? If you need schooling read Technology Brewing and Malting by Kunze, that's where I get most of my material the rest comes from MBAA tech bulletins..

 

[Bassman2003]

Nevermind. Just trying to understand what you are actually doing - single or double decoction.

 

[hottpeper13]

No ,never tried this procedure but am doing a double decoction today for a Check Pils. With the highly modified malts and a slow induction burner I fear doughing in at 122* and pulling a decoction for the sacc rest would take around 1+ hrs. To keep the 122 rest at 15-20 min I dough in at 122* at 1/1 ratio and add boiling liquor to get to 143* then pull my first decoction.

I would think that the boiling of the grist makes conversion faster then your typical step mash,it's like super gelatinised. I do a 2 step decoction, mash in at 148* 10 min,pull most of the grist. Bring to 160* rest 30 min,boil 30 min then return to bring mash to 160*.
The grist is way more fluid after the 160* rest and easier to stir with lower heat input.

I was emphasizing the 30 min rest at 160 * for the decoction grist,you guys seem to think it doesn't matter. When the 30 min main mash rest is finished I pull the second one and bring to a boil immediately for 30 min then add back for a mashout. If I'm using 50% or more of wheat I dough in at 122 with a 1:1 ratio,then add boiling liquor to get to 148* and then do my decoction from there. In my system it would take too long to do a decoction from 122* to 148* because it would include a rest at 148*/30 min then 160*/30 min then boil/30 min. That would be 1.5 hours at 122* ,not happening in my brewery!

Maybe if you read them all at once it will be less confusing.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, thanks. Looks like you are doing a 3-step mash (4 if the protein rest is used) with a single decoction between beta and alpha. Your 30 minute rest at 160f with the pulled grains is giving you more time for the enzymes to work on the separated grains while the main mash stays at 148f. I am unclear how long you are staying at 160f once you return the boiled grist to the main mash. Then are you just heating to get to mashout?

 

[hottpeper13]

My first pull is put back into the main mash to get from 148* to 160* and then the main mash is rested for 30 min, then the second is pulled and brought to a boil immediately and 30 min latter it's put back into the main mash for mashout at 172* or so.
Your right in that it's a 3 step mash without a protein rest. My double decocted beers have a deeper maltiness to them than a step mash at the same temps and (times). Could it be the boiling of the grist or the extra time spent at each rest, all I can say is I double decoct all beers I would call German brews.
Today I'm kegging a Pils and a Kolsch split from the same batch that was D D'ed. First time with my 2565 house yeast.

 

[Bassman2003]

Cool. I do not know if I will ever try a decoction or not.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Maybe if you read them all at once it will be less confusing.

Question related to your double decoction schedule when going from 148,160,mashout temps with decoctions to get to each step....whats is your fermentability like with your schedule? Sounds like you nail the maltiness but was curious what your attenuation is like. Obviously this is also yeast dependent I know. Just curious really because Im trying to figure out my decoction steps and schedule (double decoction) but don't neccessarily want SUPER fermentable wort. My plan is to end up with an OG of 1.057 and FG in the 1.013-15 range. Im brewing a dark czech lager.

 

[hottpeper13]

Since most pilsners are lacking crystal malts the FG on mine are 1.008-1.010. When I do bocks and dark lagers I use crystal rye and wheat and plenty of Munich-10 they finish between 1.012 and 1.020 depending on where they start. I would think that 1.013 is a go with the style your planing.