Decoction questions

[phoenixs4r]

2 questions, I have never done a decoction, and would like to attempt to for a future brew. This is only for mash out.

1. I've done limited research, but ultimately the point is to extract the appropriate amount of grain, not mash wort (liquid) correct?

2. Is this possible on a little coleman camping stove in a decent amount of time? Mash temp will be 151ish in a cooler for 90mins, and according to beersmith I'll need about 2 "gallons" of mash.

Thanks!

 

[lumpher]

a coleman camping stove won't have the power to boil 2 gallons of wort. and no, decoction involves wort, not grain.

 

[arturo7]

1. You need both grain and liquid. Search for Kaiser's tutorial on decocting.

2. I don't think a camp stove will give you the BTUs for decocting. Why not use the same burner as you do for the boil?

Good luck. Decocting is an awesome technique to have in your repertoire. It comes in handy when you're having trouble with mash temps.

 

[mux]

You would pull the thick part of the mash. Mostly grist some wort will be "soaked in the grain." check this! Watch episode 34.
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewingtv/

 

[shortz]

The target is grain and that will bring liquid as you scoop it out. The whole point of decoction is to destroy solid material so enzymes can break the newly exposed starch down when u return it to the holding pot.

 

[Yooper]

Well, here is where it gets sticky. (Get it? Wort? Sticky? )

In a typical decoction you pull from the thickest part of the mash- you want mostly grain although you will need some liquid to be able to boil the mash. You bring this up to the next rest temp, hold it a bit, and then boil it and return it to the main mash to reach the next temp. If you pull too much liquid, you will have some pH issues as well as denature the enzymes, so you want to pull the thickest decoction you can.

Here's the sticky part- you do the thick decoctions until you get to the mash-out step. Once you get to the mash-out step, you usually want to pull more liquid, as the idea IS to denature the enzymes at that point and you don't hold it at the next rest temp, as the goal is mash out. So, the thickest decoctions you can for the multi-step rests, but for mash out, you pull mostly liquid.

That might be clear as mud but I hope I explained it well enough!

 

[phoenixs4r]

1. You need both grain and liquid. Search for Kaiser's tutorial on decocting.

2. I don't think a camp stove will give you the BTUs for decocting. Why not use the same burner as you do for the boil?

Good luck. Decocting is an awesome technique to have in your repertoire. It comes in handy when you're having trouble with mash temps.

Cause I'm stupid, and didn't think of that to be honest. I have a bad back so lifting stuff I try to avoid, but that this point the BK is empty, I just wasn't thinking clearly. Damn alcohol.

Well, here is where it gets sticky. (Get it? Wort? Sticky? )

In a typical decoction you pull from the thickest part of the mash- you want mostly grain although you will need some liquid to be able to boil the mash. You bring this up to the next rest temp, hold it a bit, and then boil it and return it to the main mash to reach the next temp. If you pull too much liquid, you will have some pH issues as well as denature the enzymes, so you want to pull the thickest decoction you can.

Here's the sticky part- you do the thick decoctions until you get to the mash-out step. Once you get to the mash-out step, you usually want to pull more liquid, as the idea IS to denature the enzymes at that point and you don't hold it at the next rest temp, as the goal is mash out. So, the thickest decoctions you can for the multi-step rests, but for mash out, you pull mostly liquid.

That might be clear as mud but I hope I explained it well enough!

Gotcha, so would I be safe with only liquid then? It'll be a big f'ing beer, there will be more than enough 1st runnings to just do the liquid. I'm struggling with big beer efficiency, which is why I'm even bothering.

 

[Rev2010]

a coleman camping stove won't have the power to boil 2 gallons of wort. and no, decoction involves wort, not grain.

Actually, not correct. You can decoct using grains, which is most typical to achieve the next temp rest, or you can decoct via a thin pull - meaning pulling wort but that is pretty much always only for a mashout temp range. Reason being the enzymes for conversion are primarily in the mash liquid. If you pull the grains and boil them like typically done you don't denature many enzymes since most are still in the mash so they still continue to convert. When you pull a thin (wort) decoction for mash out it doesn't matter that you are denaturing them because you are stopping conversion anyway.


Rev.

 

[joety]

If you are just pulling wort is it really decoction? I assume what you don't want is to land somewhere in between and risk boiling some grains with your wort and extracting tanins.

 

[phoenixs4r]

If you are just pulling wort is it really decoction? I assume what you don't want is to land somewhere in between and risk boiling some grains with your wort and extracting tanins.

I'm not sure at all. All I want is to be able to mash out to see if it helps my lower efficiency with big beers.

 

[arturo7]

If you are just pulling wort is it really decoction? I assume what you don't want is to land somewhere in between and risk boiling some grains with your wort and extracting tanins.

I don't tannins are an issue with decocting. I just can't remember why...

 

[mlg5039]

When decocting for rests at lower temps (protein rest, alpha and beta sacc rests), the ph is not right for the extraction of tannins to occur, and therefore it is okay to boil the grains with no issues. When decocting to step up from conversion temps (146-155) to mashout temps (164+), tannin extraction is possible, and therefore you should pull mostly liquid wort to boil and add back to the mash to acheive the desired mashout temperature.

Make sense?

 

[laversmp]

Search for Decoction 1,2,3 on You Tube. Kaiser explains science, math and all in (3) video's. Very imformative.

 

[phoenixs4r]

OK, so general consensus is decoction is not the right technique for what I'm looking for, so just drain and appropriate amount of first running a into a kettle, get them boiling and add back into mash eh? Again, this is after a 60-90 minute mash, so it should be converted and/or done, and if I didn't mash out I'd be draining and boiling anyway eh?

 

[phoenixs4r]

Or, I could go really ghetto and hook my pump out line to a 6" price of copper and put my blown torch on it for a poor man rims/mash out, lolz.



......I might just try that.

 

[arturo7]

OK, so general consensus is decoction is not the right technique for what I'm looking for, so just drain and appropriate amount of first running a into a kettle, get them boiling and add back into mash eh? Again, this is after a 60-90 minute mash, so it should be converted and/or done, and if I didn't mash out I'd be draining and boiling anyway eh?

What are you to accomplish, again?

 

[phoenixs4r]

Mash temp to mash out temp without infusion of water, and no external heat source directly on the mash tun

 

[Denny]

I don't tannins are an issue with decocting. I just can't remember why...

Because the pH is low enough that you won't extract tannins.

 

[Denny]

When decocting for rests at lower temps (protein rest, alpha and beta sacc rests), the ph is not right for the extraction of tannins to occur, and therefore it is okay to boil the grains with no issues. When decocting to step up from conversion temps (146-155) to mashout temps (164+), tannin extraction is possible, and therefore you should pull mostly liquid wort to boil and add back to the mash to acheive the desired mashout temperature.

Make sense?

Are you sure? Why is the pH higher at that point?

 

[terrapinj]

here is what Kaiser has to say
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

The thickness of the decoction depends on the thickness of the main mash. Though it is preferred to leave a lot of the liquid back in the mash tun, the decoction should not be too thick (grain should still be submerged in liquid) to make stirring it easier and keep it from scorching easily. If the main mash can be kept at the preferred thickness of 1.5 - 2 qts/lb (3-4 kg/l) the decoction should have a thickness of 1-1.25 qts/lb (2-2.5 kg/l). At this thickness and with gentle heating, only little stirring is necessary to keep the mash from scorching. For lager grists (high gravity beers) the thickness of the mash may however be limited by the volume of the mash tun.

//

After holding the saccharification rest for about 45 min or longer, if starch conversion is not complete after that time, the final decoction is pulled. This decoction can also be thinner and doesn't have to be rested for starch conversion any more, since the starches have already been converted and enzymes protection is not as crucial anymore.

 

[phoenixs4r]

OK so its not a decoction I'm shooting for. Any known side effects of taking first running, boiling, reintroducing them into the mash to raise mash to mash out, and sparging from there?

 

[mux]

Why not just lauter as usual with water?

 

[terrapinj]

OK so its not a decoction I'm shooting for. Any known side effects of taking first running, boiling, reintroducing them into the mash to raise mash to mash out, and sparging from there?

the technique of boiling runnings is a common carmelization technique for a lot of scottish ales

the problem is that you reduce a lot of the volume down so it could be hard to target proper volume to make sure you hit your mash out temps

why not just infuse mash out or if you batch sparge do mash out during 1st sparge?

 

[Denny]

Or just skip the mashout completely.

when you do a boil down for a scotch ale, you don't just bring it to a boil. You keep boiling it and reduce the volume. That would not be the case for a thin decoction.

 

[phoenixs4r]

Cause.

LOL.

I can't infuse due to the amount of space available in my mash tun in the beers I like to produce is nil

I'm not talking about boiling down the wort, merely bringing it to a boil for a sec and reintroducing it into the mash to raise its temperature.

 

[arturo7]

Or just skip the mashout completely.

Definitely worth consideration. Several threads here on this practice.

 

[phoenixs4r]

I am fully aware that a mash out is considered not a necessity, I have done several batches without doing it, it made beer which is great. My question isn't of its necessity but how to do it without external heating of the tun, rims, herms, or fresh water infusion.

 

[terrapinj]

mash out when you sparge if you batch sparge

 

[arturo7]

Have you considered a heat stick?

 

[Randar]

This thread is all over the place.

Once you get to the mash-out step, you usually want to pull more liquid, as the idea IS to denature the enzymes at that point and you don't hold it at the next rest temp, as the goal is mash out.

Say wha? Why would the point be to denature the enzymes? They will be denatured at mash-out and lautering temps anyway, right (alpha amylase at low 160's)? I think the liquid portion is taken at this step because it is easier to deal with. It's the only justification I've been able to find (although I may have missed it along the way somewhere)

the technique of boiling runnings is a common carmelization technique for a lot of scottish ales

the problem is that you reduce a lot of the volume down so it could be hard to target proper volume to make sure you hit your mash out temps

Right, but this involves boiling the first runnings for hour(s). OP's only talking about bringing to a boil long-enough to facilitate mash-out.

here is what Kaiser has to say
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

After holding the saccharification rest for about 45 min or longer, if starch conversion is not complete after that time, the final decoction is pulled. This decoction can also be thinner and doesn't have to be rested for starch conversion any more, since the starches have already been converted and enzymes protection is not as crucial anymore.

This is what I was referring to in the response to Yoop's post

Because the pH is low enough that you won't extract tannins.

Exactly. pH is the key here and as long as the brewer maintains proper pH throughout the mash and lautering, tannin extraction is not an issue.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing#Extraction_of_Tannins

I am fully aware that a mash out is considered not a necessity, I have done several batches without doing it, it made beer which is great. My question isn't of its necessity but how to do it without external heating of the tun, rims, herms, or fresh water infusion.

Your proposed method of pulling a bit of the mash (or just the mash liquor) to boil and reintroduce would work just fine... no, it's not really a decoction, but it mimics the common last step in a typical decoction mash, hence the confusion.

Oh, and RDWHAHB!

 

[Denny]

This thread is all over the place.

Say wha? Why would the point be to denature the enzymes? They will be denatured at mash-out and lautering temps anyway, right (alpha amylase at low 160's)? I think the liquid portion is taken at this step because it is easier to deal with. It's the only justification I've been able to find (although I may have missed it along the way somewhere)

Nope. You need to hold 170+ for at least 20 min. Which is why I don't bother.

 

[phoenixs4r]

This thread is all over the place.

Say wha? Why would the point be to denature the enzymes? They will be denatured at mash-out and lautering temps anyway, right (alpha amylase at low 160's)? I think the liquid portion is taken at this step because it is easier to deal with. It's the only justification I've been able to find (although I may have missed it along the way somewhere)

Right, but this involves boiling the first runnings for hour(s). OP's only talking about bringing to a boil long-enough to facilitate mash-out.

This is what I was referring to in the response to Yoop's post

Exactly. pH is the key here and as long as the brewer maintains proper pH throughout the mash and lautering, tannin extraction is not an issue.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing#Extraction_of_Tannins

Your proposed method of pulling a bit of the mash (or just the mash liquor) to boil and reintroduce would work just fine... no, it's not really a decoction, but it mimics the common last step in a typical decoction mash, hence the confusion.

Oh, and RDWHAHB!

Yay. An answer.

Mostly my fault for thinking what I needed was a decoction, but I'll blame all of you guys anyway.

Lol jk have a good weekend everyone.

 

[joety]

Nope. You need to hold 170+ for at least 20 min. Which is why I don't bother.

Really???

I do get better efficiency when I mash out (could be just do to a longer mash) but I thought I was denaturing the enzymes at 168 degrees for 10 minutes. It probably takes me fifteen minutes to step up using the RIMS and moderate direct heat from the NG burner underneath the MT.

 

[Denny]

Really???

I do get better efficiency when I mash out (could be just do to a longer mash) but I thought I was denaturing the enzymes at 168 degrees for 10 minutes. It probably takes me fifteen minutes to step up using the RIMS and moderate direct heat from the NG burner underneath the MT.

What you're doing is solubulizing more starches and getting additional conversion by raising the temp. That's why people sometimes see a bit better efficiency when they do what they think is a "mashout".