Decoction Mash fro Bock

[amrmedic]

I have searched the forums and youtube, and everything I find on decoction mashing is vague and confusing. From what I can tell, people shy away from it. Why is that?

Also what is the best way to do it?

I want to brew a Doppelbock, and what I read, a decoction mash is recommended.

I know you strike at a low temp then wait for a period of time, take a portion of the mash, heat it up and add it back in. But how much mash to take out, what temp to get it to, etc?

 

[ThePearsonFam]

Most people shy away from it because the benefits are questionable and it's kinda a PITA. I use Beersmith, so it tells me how much to decot to get to the next sach temp. For example (very loose example here). 10lbs of grain, 3 gal of strike water at a water to grist of 1.2 to get to 150 degrees initially. I want to decoct to get to mash-out. It might take boiling a gallon of mash to get to the mash-out temp... Take the required amount of mash (you should be taking the grains with as little liquid as you can) from your mash tun and place it into another boil vessel. Bring it to boil using a slow ramp of heating, stir until your arm falls off and tehn stir more. If you let it sit, it'll scorch. Liquid will come out of the grains as you near boil and the decoction volume will seems like it is liquifying some. Boil it for however long you want. The theory is that the longer you boil, the more the color and caramleization will occur (well, no caramelization will actually occur but melanoiden formation will occur). If you're looking to simply get to mash-out, just get it to boil. If you're looking for color/body, boil it for 30 minutes. Dump the whole thing back into your MT and mix thoroughly.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Most people shy away from it because the benefits are questionable and it's kinda a PITA. I use Beersmith, so it tells me how much to decot to get to the next sach temp. For example (very loose example here). 10lbs of grain, 3 gal of strike water at a water to grist of 1.2 to get to 150 degrees initially. I want to decoct to get to mash-out. It might take boiling a gallon of mash to get to the mash-out temp... Take the required amount of mash (you should be taking the grains with as little liquid as you can) from your mash tun and place it into another boil vessel. Bring it to boil using a slow ramp of heating, stir until your arm falls off and tehn stir more. If you let it sit, it'll scorch. Liquid will come out of the grains as you near boil and the decoction volume will seems like it is liquifying some. Boil it for however long you want. The theory is that the longer you boil, the more the color and caramleization will occur (well, no caramelization will actually occur but melanoiden formation will occur). If you're looking to simply get to mash-out, just get it to boil. If you're looking for color/body, boil it for 30 minutes. Dump the whole thing back into your MT and mix thoroughly.

What he said . A brewing calculator like Beersmith takes the guesswork out of it. There are free online calculators, but I honestly don't know if they can help with decoction. Decocting is indeed a PITA, but for certain styles it is well worth it, IMHO.

 

[gio]

It's a total pain but I almost always use a decoction mash anyways. I'm beginning to question why. People don't like it because it is incredibly time consuming and often doesn't result in any benefit other than a slight gain in efficiency and arguably a deeper flavor.

There are some decent online calculators that are a big help. First, to see how much you should decoct: http://www.quaff.org/cyberbrau/DecoctionCalculator.htm

You also definitely should read http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_Mashing
The decoction mash I use is the "Enhanced Double Decoction" which is what you'll want to use for a mash that requires a protein rest (if it contains pilsner grain, for example).

That said, the calculators aren't that useful because you will always lose an indeterminate amount of liquid when you boil the decoction. Thus, you always must decoct quite a bit more liquid than you expect to compensate. I find when using the calculator I rarely hit my anticipated temperature when adding the decoction back in and almost always have to add heat or more boiling water. It's best to decoct a bit extra from what the calculator tells you and stop adding the mash back when you hit the temp you are looking for. You can always add the rest of the decocted portion in later at mash out or after letting it cool.

 

[amrmedic]

So is using a decoction mash required for a doppelbock? Or are the grains we use modified enough not to require it?

I was planning on using Melanoiden malt in my recipe if I didn't do a decoction mash.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Depends on what you mean by "required". Check this out:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/decoction-mashing-who-does-228371/

 

[Northcalais40]

Sorry, but I think decoction is not a pain at all. What is painful for me is having extra infusion water to raise the temp, then being short on sparge water. True, if you've got your system dialed, you should be able to hit temps with ease by infusion. If you under shoot though, you can remove some of the mash ( plus some extra) boil it ( for 20 min or just a minute) and add it back a little at a time. I do decoctions for mash out most of the time.

The key is to take grain as well as water so you don't lose enzymes. Once you hit your temp, let the extra cool to temp and add it in.

Kaiser has foolproof step by step instructions in the decoction sticky thread at the top of the page. He is showing the "real" method, which is a bit ambitious for me, most of us don't do protein rests.

A decoction can improve your yield, and folks say it changes the flavor of beer. It is not common or necessary and will add maybe an hour to a mash. But you have only an hour to lose by trying.

Check out braukaiser.com for actual information.

 

[Yooper]

What he said . A brewing calculator like Beersmith takes the guesswork out of it. There are free online calculators, but I honestly don't know if they can help with decoction. Decocting is indeed a PITA, but for certain styles it is well worth it, IMHO.

It's not so much a PITA if you have a goal in mind. Just doing one and not understanding why/how/when would make it a PITA, though!

I like using software to calculate my volumes and temps, but keep in mind that Beersmith doesn't "know" what rests you should do. I think the default "lager mash" is NOT a good decoction schedule. Pick your temperatures, and then change the profile in the mash schedule to find your needs. IT does help a lot with how much to decoct.

Something else to keep in mind is to always decoct the thickest part of the mash, not the liquid. That seems counterintuitive, but it makes sense from a pH standpoint. When you go to mashout, you CAN decoct more liquid.

 

[gio]

Sorry, but I think decoction is not a pain at all. What is painful for me is having extra infusion water to raise the temp, then being short on sparge water. True, if you've got your system dialed, you should be able to hit temps with ease by infusion. If you under shoot though, you can remove some of the mash ( plus some extra) boil it ( for 20 min or just a minute) and add it back a little at a time. I do decoctions for mash out most of the time.

The key is to take grain as well as water so you don't lose enzymes. Once you hit your temp, let the extra cool to temp and add it in.

Kaiser has foolproof step by step instructions in the decoction sticky thread at the top of the page. He is showing the "real" method, which is a bit ambitious for me, most of us don't do protein rests.

A decoction can improve your yield, and folks say it changes the flavor of beer. It is not common or necessary and will add maybe an hour to a mash. But you have only an hour to lose by trying.

Check out braukaiser.com for actual information.

My decoction mashes add way more than an hour to brew time (more like 2 or maybe 2.5 hours more). Here is the comparison. First, a normal three step infusion:

- Heat water to 130-132, add grain to hit 122 (protein rest).
- rest 20 min
- Add boiling water to hit saccharification rest (usually in the 150s).
- rest 60 min
- Add boiling water to mash out at 170
- rest 10 min

Since you can have the boiling water ready to go while you are resting, the whole process takes about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

Now for an enhanced double decoction mash:
- Heat water to 111, add grain to hit 105 (dough-in)
- Decoct mash and heat.
- Pause decocted portion at 122 for 15 min for protein rest.
- Pause decocted portion at 156 for 20 min for saccharification rest
- Continue heating and boil decocted portion for 10-20 min.
- Add part of decocted portion back to main mash to hit protein rest. Rest 20.
- Add rest of decocted portion to hit saccharification rest for 60 min.
- Decoct more mash and boil.
- Add decocted mash back in to hit mash out at 170. Rest 10 min.

As you can see all the different rests add quite a bit of time, but what may not be immediately apparent is that you can't just have a large pot of water boiling and ready to use like you cna for an infusion mash. Every time you decoct, you need to heat the mash up to boiling and that can take a significant amount of time. You can't heat too quickly either or you risk burning the mash as the decoction is a very thick mash.

 

[trigger]

FWIW I have done both my bock and my marzen with double decoctions and without. When going without I added carafa special III to raise the colo to what I wanted, and melanoidin malt plus a bit more crystal to make up for the missing flavor. They're good both ways, but not the same. The decoction versions seem to have more "integrated" flavors, if that makes sense. It's not just me wanting them to be different, either, as several people who are not into brewing have said the decoction versions taste "smoother." These aren't big differences, though, and if you weren't tasting them side by side I don't think that you'd be able to tell them apart.

I have come to the realization that decoctions are worth the extra time and effort for me, even if the differences are subtle. I enjoy brewing, so an opportunity to add complexity that does have the desired effect is not a problem. I wouldn't, however, do a decoction on a beer who's style doesn't call for it, or in a beer where the effects would be buried by hops or yeast character. For me that means that I will do decoctions on German lagers and my roggenbier.

 

[amrmedic]

Ok, I am going to try a decoction mash with my bock. I have read up on this crazy process. But some questions still linger.
1) After doughing in, how long do I wait before pulling off the decocotion portion and after adding the decoction back before pulling the next decoction?
2) If it says rest for 20 min, does that include the time it takes to get the decoct up to boiling?

So, lets say I dough in at 105 F and it needs to stay there for 20 min, do I wait 20 minutes, then pull off the decoction part, boil it then immediately add it back to mash to get to 122 for 45 min? Then at 45 minutes, take a decoction boil it then add it back?

Also, while doing this, do I need to have candles burning, offer sacrifices to the Beer gods and chant and say prayers?

Thanks

 

[Mysticmead]

based on your example I would let it rest at 105 for 20 minutes then pull the decoction.. raise slowly to 158 hold it for 15 minutes, then raise to a boil. boil for 20-30 minutes and add back to the main mash to raise to the next step (your example 122) and hold for 45 minutes.. then pull a decoction and repeat the process for each step.

The decoction mash I did was for a 100% wheat beer. I doughed in at 122F rested for 30 minutes.. pulled a thick decoction raised to 158F for 15 minutes, then boiled it for 20 minutes and added it back to the main mash to raise to 155F and rested there for 45 minutes. then pulled a thin decoction and boiled for 20 minutes adding to the main mash for a mash out. 10 minutes later it was done.

the beer came out GREAT.

 

[ThePearsonFam]

Honestly, the best answer is; you should do two versions of exactly the same recipe at the same time and do a blind tasting to see which you prefer... I say it's a PITA and I think that it is... Does that mean I don't do them? No, still do, but not as often as I used to.

Most commercial breweries don't decot anymore because the cost of fuel outweighs the benefits of the process. They (and you) can typically make recipe adjustments to approach the same taste, body and feel.

 

[amrmedic]

I think I will do it one time, just for the experience. Pay homage to the pioneers of brewing. Like a rite of passage. Reading the forums and info on it, it seems like I will earn a better appreciation for the advances in brewing we enjoy these days.

I would like to see a Brewmasters episode of Sam doing a triple decoction mash for a doppelbock or even an eisbock.

 

[Mysticmead]

I did it for the same reasons.. I wanted the experience.. honestly,would I do it again? sure would. It wasn't really that hard.. yes it added time to my brew day but big deal.. it's a hobby, enjoy it to the fullest.