Dark Sour with Philly Sour - Passion Fruit / Roasted Coconut / Cacao

[CPlazas]

I've been thinking about experimenting with Philly Sour and brewing a sour beer based on a popular dessert here in Brazil. It's my first time doing both sour and adjunct beer, so I'd love to have some feedback about the recipe before giving it a go.

My idea is to have a dark sour beer with the main flavor of passion fruit followed by toasty notes (mildly bitter) with roasted coconut and cacao at the back.
I also want it to have a bit of body while ending up at 6%-ish, so I added a bit of maltodextrin to raise the FG. I also gathered some information on malts that can be used to add body to the beer and added a bit of it, along with wheat and oats.

Here's a breakdown that I took from Brewfather:

Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.070
Final Gravity: 1.022
IBU (Tinseth): 5
BU/GU: 0.07
Color: 81.5 EBC

Malts
31.5% — Bindewald Pale Ale Malt — Grain — 5.9 EBC
24.7% — Oats, Flaked — Grain — 2 EBC
22.5% — Bindewald Wheat Malt — Grain — 4 EBC
4.5% — Bindewald Carapils Malt — Grain — 5.5 EBC
4.5% — Bindewald Munich Malt 15 — Grain — 14 EBC
4.5% — Muntons Roasted Barley — Grain — 1035 EBC — Mash — 5 min
4.5% — Bindewald Roasted Malt Chocolate — Grain — 1045 EBC — Mash — 5 min
2.3% — Bindewald Acidulated Malt — Grain — 4.5 EBC
1.1% — Bindewald Roasted Malt — Grain — 1355 EBC — Mash — 5 min

Other ()
400 g — Maltodextrin — Sugar — 5.9 EBC
2% — Cane (Beet) Sugar — Sugar — 0 EBC (to increase sourness according to Lallemand)

Hops (8.3 g)
8.3 g (5 IBU) — Golding 5% — Boil — 60 min

Yeast
1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Philly Sour

The amount of passion fruit, coconut, and cacao is still to be defined.

 

[marc1]

Is this a 5 gallon batch? You'll probably want two packets of yeast given what the Lallemand video recommended. Souring is the greatest at 1.0-1.5g/L of yeast.
It's linked in post 2 of the Philly Sour thread here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-sour-feedback-or-experience-to-share.682096/

 

[CPlazas]

Is this a 5 gallon batch? You'll probably want two packets of yeast given what the Lallemand video recommended. Souring is the greatest at 1.0-1.5g/L of yeast.
It's linked in post 2 of the Philly Sour thread here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-sour-feedback-or-experience-to-share.682096/

Not sure how many liters that is, but I'm fermenting only 10 liters and it fits the spec.

 

[marc1]

Your grain bill is pretty complicated. I'd simplify it to something like:

61% — Bindewald Munich Malt 15 — Grain — 14 EBC
20% — Bindewald Wheat Malt — Grain — 4 EBC
10% — Bindewald Carapils Malt — Grain — 5.5 EBC
4% — Bindewald Roasted Malt — Grain — 1355 EBC (I would sub with something less astringent like Midnight Wheat if available and up the percentage a little more, but that's my taste preference)
5% — Bindewald Roasted Malt Chocolate — Grain — 1045 EBC

Now you don't need acid malt because your roasted grains are going right into the mash. You may need a little alkalinity to bring the mash pH up a bit, check your favorite mash pH software to find out.

Not sure how the Bindewald carapils is, could be different than the US Breiss that I'm familiar with; you could swap out for a crystal of choice if you want some sweetness, too.

You could also swap out some of the munich for victory, biscuit, or melanoidin (maybe 5% or so) to really get more bready, toasty notes. I'm not sure how much would be discernable over the roast malts, so maybe something to try for version 2.0 after this one is done.

Your maltodextrin will help with the body. You can also mash high to make it less fermentable. If you want really high FG then maybe 158 or more depending on how things work in your system and what you're comfortable with.

The sugar is good.

I haven't used passion fruit, coconut, or cacao so I can't really speak to those.

 

[CPlazas]

Your grain bill is pretty complicated. I'd simplify it to something like:

61% — Bindewald Munich Malt 15 — Grain — 14 EBC
20% — Bindewald Wheat Malt — Grain — 4 EBC
10% — Bindewald Carapils Malt — Grain — 5.5 EBC
4% — Bindewald Roasted Malt — Grain — 1355 EBC (I would sub with something less astringent like Midnight Wheat if available and up the percentage a little more, but that's my taste preference)
5% — Bindewald Roasted Malt Chocolate — Grain — 1045 EBC

Now you don't need acid malt because your roasted grains are going right into the mash. You may need a little alkalinity to bring the mash pH up a bit, check your favorite mash pH software to find out.

Not sure how the Bindewald carapils is, could be different than the US Breiss that I'm familiar with; you could swap out for a crystal of choice if you want some sweetness, too.

You could also swap out some of the munich for victory, biscuit, or melanoidin (maybe 5% or so) to really get more bready, toasty notes. I'm not sure how much would be discernable over the roast malts, so maybe something to try for version 2.0 after this one is done.

Your maltodextrin will help with the body. You can also mash high to make it less fermentable. If you want really high FG then maybe 158 or more depending on how things work in your system and what you're comfortable with.

The sugar is good.

I haven't used passion fruit, coconut, or cacao so I can't really speak to those.

Thanks! I really wanted to simplify it. The reason it was complicated is because I read that Munich and Carapils add body, so I added a bit for the sake of it. The roasted malts were chosen because I tried to get the right color without giving strong toasty flavors or astringency, which I rather avoid. As for the acid malt, the pH was kinda high according to Brewfather, so I had to add it to lower the pH.

Any reason on why removing the oats in favor of upping the Munich and Carapils malt?

I really wanted a high FG but seems like the yeast doesn't like higher temperature mash. I'm likely wrong, but that's what I got from my research. But I think I'm comfortable with the FG I'll get from it.

Regarding the adjuncts - it's a really popular dessert combination and I'm sure it will come out great the flavors blend pretty well.

 

[monkeymath]

Regarding the adjuncts - it's a really popular dessert combination and I'm sure it will come out great the flavors blend pretty well.

I apologize for not being helpful, but can you elaborate a bit here? I'm intrigued by this combination of flavours and curious about its culinary background.

Thanks!

 

[CPlazas]

I apologize for not being helpful, but can you elaborate a bit here? I'm intrigued by this combination of flavours and curious about its culinary background.

Thanks!

Sure, no problem

Passion fruit with chocolate comes typically from popular Brazilian desserts called "Mousse de Maracujá" and "Trufa de Maracujá". Coconut and passion fruit comes typically from "Cocada de Maracujá" and "Cocada de Maracujá com Chocolate". The ingredients can overlap in these popular desserts, resulting in a passion fruit, chocolate, and coconut combination that goes well.

It's one of those popular things that are around you for your entire life. You can find desserts with the combination everywhere, from supermarkets to small street vendors, so it comes naturally to me.

I hope that it helped!

 

[marc1]

Thanks! I really wanted to simplify it. The reason it was complicated is because I read that Munich and Carapils add body, so I added a bit for the sake of it. The roasted malts were chosen because I tried to get the right color without giving strong toasty flavors or astringency, which I rather avoid. As for the acid malt, the pH was kinda high according to Brewfather, so I had to add it to lower the pH.

Any reason on why removing the oats in favor of upping the Munich and Carapils malt?

I really wanted a high FG but seems like the yeast doesn't like higher temperature mash. I'm likely wrong, but that's what I got from my research. But I think I'm comfortable with the FG I'll get from it.

Regarding the adjuncts - it's a really popular dessert combination and I'm sure it will come out great the flavors blend pretty well.

You wanted darker malt flavors. I've used munich as the main base before and it was great, so making it the base seemed to simplify. I've used oats before but not lately, and you've got plenty of foam protein from the wheat, body from the crystal/carapils, plus the maltodextrin. So, it was removing potential redundancies to simplify, plus it's not something that I normally use.

You shouldn't need the acid malt if you put the dark grain in the mash, rather than at the end, unless your source water has really high alkalinity.

I'm not sure about the mash temp affecting the yeast negatively - you're adding sugar to help the yeast make more sourness via simple sugars. You could maybe up that a little more if you want. Where did you see that high mash temp was bad? It's certainly something that I could have missed/forgotten about, and I'm curious.

 

[monkeymath]

So, did you end up making this, @CPlazas ? If you did, I'd love to hear how it turned out