Dark, Cloudy, Malty, IPA. What happened?

[Rob2010SS]

I see what you mean about marginal hop flavor and aroma with that hop bill. I compared it to some others and it doesn't have a lot of hops in there in comparison. I did just notice that in the pic a few posts up showing the hop bill, I left out the 2oz of dry hops (1oz simcoe and 1oz cascade). Not sure how much of a difference that would make in your analysis of the hop bill. Unfortunately the closest HBS is 45 min away. There used to be a brew and grow by me but it closed permanently.

I might do a comparison and just see how much it would cost to buy all the ingredients vs buying the kits. I expect it to be a bit more pricey but we'll see.

Thanks for the info HWK

 

[Rob2010SS]

So, would like to provide an update here on the cloudiness of this beer. I personally like being able to read a thread and see all the updates. If anything i feel others can learn from this as well.

I let this beer sit in the fridge for 3 weeks and it cleared up pretty nicely! This was one of my complaints about the beer originally but after letting it sit, it looks pretty good. Can see through it just fine.

Note to any new brewers like myself reading this - time helps clear the beer.

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[VirginiaHops1]

Yeah, you could have a point triethylborane.... I'm not sure how else to describe the taste. I suppose.... It could almost be a yeasty/bready taste. That might be a bit of a reach though, not sure if I'd go so far as to call it that just yet.

I was trying to pinpoint the taste I'm getting in my home-brew, and came across this thread. I don't know how to describe it but bready/yeasty was one that came to mind for me too. It tastes a bit heavier on the malt than I'd like too. I don't know if it's something I did or just the recipe. Mine was the Chinook IPA from Northernbrewer. Didn't turn out bad at all, there are just some thing I'd like to tweak next time and I've been trying to figure out what flavors are there and why. I definitely am going to try the late extract addition and see what effect that has next time. Also may look into testing my water at some point. Some good info in this thread. I let mine ferment 2 weeks before bottling. I may give it another 3-7 days in the fermenter next time.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I was trying to pinpoint the taste I'm getting in my home-brew, and came across this thread. I don't know how to describe it but bready/yeasty was one that came to mind for me too. It tastes a bit heavier on the malt than I'd like too. I don't know if it's something I did or just the recipe. Mine was the Chinook IPA from Northernbrewer. Didn't turn out bad at all, there are just some thing I'd like to tweak next time and I've been trying to figure out what flavors are there and why. I definitely am going to try the late extract addition and see what effect that has next time. Also may look into testing my water at some point. Some good info in this thread. I let mine ferment 2 weeks before bottling. I may give it another 3-7 days in the fermenter next time.

Glad this thread could help you out! Being 16 batches in since this thread, can definitely say I learned a lot and I'm pretty sure the flavor we were both trying to describe is simply the "extract twang", or whatever people call that. As soon as I went all grain, I haven't had that flavor anymore. So, I'm going to say it's not necessarily the recipe, but in my opinion, it's the LME.

 

[kh54s10]

Another 3 - 7 days will not help unless you for some reason have a slow fermentation. It also won't hurt. When I brew now I only use light dry extract and get color and flavor from specialty grains. I learned on my second batch to add most of the extract at flame out.

I never experienced "extract twang" in any of my extract brews. But then again I don't have that sophisticated of a palate. I cannot describe different tastes much more too sweet, too malty, not enough hop flavor etc.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Glad this thread could help you out! Being 16 batches in since this thread, can definitely say I learned a lot and I'm pretty sure the flavor we were both trying to describe is simply the "extract twang", or whatever people call that. As soon as I went all grain, I haven't had that flavor anymore. So, I'm going to say it's not necessarily the recipe, but in my opinion, it's the LME.

With 3 little kids I suspect I'll never have time to go all-grain, or at least not for a very long time. I'm actually wondering if what I'm tasting has to do with the specialty grains in my kit, and not extract or yeast. Initially the names of the grains I used meant nothing to me, but as I've learned more about brewing I understand that 120L adds a lot of color and toasty caramel flavor. My kit had 4 oz of this steeping. It seems like most IPAs use grains with much lower lovibond ratings, which may be what I'm used to.

Like kh54s above I don't think my palate is that sophisticated, which is why I struggle to define what I'm tasting. I'll play with it but I think I can get the taste I want with extract, with some tweaking. I'm doing a DIPA kit now that has much lighter specialty grain selection, so I'm interested to taste the differences.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

When I was about 4 brews in, I had a run of about 4 in a row that were pretty clear, so I thought I had it all figured out. Now I’m up to 17 batches and about a third of the time I see pretty heavy chill haze. Irish moss doesn’t seem to matter much, but I put it in anyway. Chilling fast doesn’t seem to make any difference either. I think squeezing my BIAB may make a difference (cloudier), but am not sure. My very first beer was quite cloudy, but I think that had more to do with my sanitation for that one because it was the first and last time I used a “1-step” sanitizer. That one was also cloudy warm or cold. What I’m saying is that clarity is a moving target for me. I use Nestle Pure Life water every brew because I like how it makes the beer taste but I still get some hazy, some clear beers. I have seen chill haze drop out, but it takes a really long time, like months. I have heard that gelatin if used after cold crashing will clear all but the haziest of beers, but I haven’t tried it yet.

As far as the color and flavor, I have been listening to a lot if Brülosophy podcasts lately and there have been a lot of mentions of LME exBeeriments. Basically the jist of it is that LME especially older LME tastes and looks different then it’s all grain cousin beer. In one exBeeriment the tasters tasted a difference and preferred the LME beer. Another one, the guy who did the exBeeriment, entered his all LME beer in a contest and scored very well with a grand master judge. So it’s not that it is bad, but it is different. When I started with extract, I used exclusively DME. I have found no difference in recipes that I adapted to all grain except that I have a harder time hitting the numbers I want/expect. So, if you want to continue with extract and have it be more what you expect from kits or brewing calculators, then I think you should switch to DME. If however you like the alternative flavor or would like to incorporate it into a beer, then the LME is a good choice, just keep the flavor and color contributions in mind when planning for your brew day.

 

[NGD]

With 3 little kids I suspect I'll never have time to go all-grain, or at least not for a very long time. I'm actually wondering if what I'm tasting has to do with the specialty grains in my kit, and not extract or yeast. Initially the names of the grains I used meant nothing to me, but as I've learned more about brewing I understand that 120L adds a lot of color and toasty caramel flavor. My kit had 4 oz of this steeping. It seems like most IPAs use grains with much lower lovibond ratings, which may be what I'm used to.

Like kh54s above I don't think my palate is that sophisticated, which is why I struggle to define what I'm tasting. I'll play with it but I think I can get the taste I want with extract, with some tweaking. I'm doing a DIPA kit now that has much lighter specialty grain selection, so I'm interested to taste the differences.

I’m actually curious about this as well in regards to grain. I noticed if I get grain from my LHBS for my extract batches it tends to not have the “twang”. If I order from a big supplier online then its 50/50 I’ll get it. I’m wondering if those kits are milled and bagged weeks/months in advance.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I normally do all grain but did make a LME beer once. When I read the thread title I immediately thought "extract" since it describes my impression.

Maybe just noob mistakes on my part dealing with extract. Oh well.
I skimmed through... Plenty of excellent advice here. Good luck!

 

[kh54s10]

I made a couple of Northern Brewer extract kits when I started. The first one I put all the extract in at the beginning of the boil. I allowed it to get too warm the first day of fermentation. On advise I did a secondary and left it in there a week longer than normal. I finished my second brew before the first was ready. By this time I learned about using 1/3 to 1/2 the extract at the start of the boil and the rest at flame out. This beer I would rate in the top 15 of my 100 batches. The first was an Irish Red Ale, the second was a Patersbier. The Red ale turned out fine.

Since then I do mostly all grain but when I use extract I use light DME and get all my color and flavor from specialty grains. These turn out pretty equal to all grain batches.

 

[Rob2010SS]

When I was about 4 brews in, I had a run of about 4 in a row that were pretty clear, so I thought I had it all figured out. Now I’m up to 17 batches and about a third of the time I see pretty heavy chill haze. Irish moss doesn’t seem to matter much, but I put it in anyway. Chilling fast doesn’t seem to make any difference either. I think squeezing my BIAB may make a difference (cloudier), but am not sure. My very first beer was quite cloudy, but I think that had more to do with my sanitation for that one because it was the first and last time I used a “1-step” sanitizer. That one was also cloudy warm or cold. What I’m saying is that clarity is a moving target for me. I use Nestle Pure Life water every brew because I like how it makes the beer taste but I still get some hazy, some clear beers. I have seen chill haze drop out, but it takes a really long time, like months. I have heard that gelatin if used after cold crashing will clear all but the haziest of beers, but I haven’t tried it yet.

As far as the color and flavor, I have been listening to a lot if Brülosophy podcasts lately and there have been a lot of mentions of LME exBeeriments. Basically the jist of it is that LME especially older LME tastes and looks different then it’s all grain cousin beer. In one exBeeriment the tasters tasted a difference and preferred the LME beer. Another one, the guy who did the exBeeriment, entered his all LME beer in a contest and scored very well with a grand master judge. So it’s not that it is bad, but it is different. When I started with extract, I used exclusively DME. I have found no difference in recipes that I adapted to all grain except that I have a harder time hitting the numbers I want/expect. So, if you want to continue with extract and have it be more what you expect from kits or brewing calculators, then I think you should switch to DME. If however you like the alternative flavor or would like to incorporate it into a beer, then the LME is a good choice, just keep the flavor and color contributions in mind when planning for your brew day.

Your haze problem would most likely be solved with gelatin. Irish moss targets the sediment in the kettle and from what I've read, will not have an effect on chill haze. Gelatin will help with the chill haze. Get the beer below 50*F, add gelatin and continue to chill to 35*F - 38*F. I use gelatin in all my beers now, except NEIPAs, and love the effect it has.

 

[Saunassa]

Oh man why did it no occur to me that if boiling 2/3 is total to only add 2/3 of the LME? The one thing I do wait on is to add the DME until 20 minutes left in the boil.
Btw, I had the Cluster hops for my chocolate stout kit still in the box the past month and a half. Do I use it or just buy a new pouch since they are cheap relative to the kit?

 

[kh54s10]

Oh man why did it no occur to me that if boiling 2/3 is total to only add 2/3 of the LME? The one thing I do wait on is to add the DME until 20 minutes left in the boil.
Btw, I had the Cluster hops for my chocolate stout kit still in the box the past month and a half. Do I use it or just buy a new pouch since they are cheap relative to the kit?

I'm not sure what you are saying here. You do want to use all the extract in the kit. Add 1/3 at the beginning of the boil and the rest at flame out. I would also add the DME at flame out.

Your hops if sealed in the original pouch should be ok. Unless where you kept them was REALLY hot.

 

[Saunassa]

i was a little ambiguous, yes my thought was to add the rest at flame out. yes the hops are still in the sealed hoptimus packaging and kept approx. 69 degree room.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Since then I do mostly all grain but when I use extract I use light DME and get all my color and flavor from specialty grains. These turn out pretty equal to all grain batches.

For my next beer I'm foregoing a kit and I ordered a bunch of hops and DME(pale) and am going to make a pale ale recipe, primarily with El Dorado hops. I was going to use a bit of 40L caramel to steep but I may just leave that out entirely. I'm doing a smaller 2.5 gallon batch so the amount of caramel I'd even use is so minimal. I can do a full boil this way, and I'm going to put about half of the 3 lbs of DME in late. I really hope this gets rid of the overly toasty/malty flavor I got in my first 2 batches.

 

[kh54s10]

You should not get overly toasty/malty flavor doing extracts. If you are using a quality kit it should be very like the beer that is described. If you are designing a recipe, use recipe making software. Brewer's Friend seems to be the most popular one online. I use Beersmith.

The second beer that I made was a Northern Brewer extract Patersbier. After 101 batches I would still rate that one in the top 15 of all the beers I have brewed.

Maybe if you posted the recipes and your processes someone could determine where your problem lies.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

You should not get overly toasty/malty flavor doing extracts. If you are using a quality kit it should be very like the beer that is described. If you are designing a recipe, use recipe making software. Brewer's Friend seems to be the most popular one online. I use Beersmith.

The second beer that I made was a Northern Brewer extract Patersbier. After 101 batches I would still rate that one in the top 15 of all the beers I have brewed.

Maybe if you posted the recipes and your processes someone could determine where your problem lies.

The 2nd kit I did was the Brewers Best DIPA.

http://www.brewersbestkits.com/assets/1035_doubleipa_recipe.pdf

I pretty much followed the instructions exactly, except didn't use a secondary. I didn't treat the water although I've since purchased campden tablets I'll use going forward. The gravity readings were spot on with the kits estimates. Aside from the flavor issue it's also having a lot of trouble carbing up. Even after 30 days in bottle it's still only partially there. I cold crashed this one, which I probably won't do again. Don't know if that had any ill effect on the carbonation but I doubt it helped.

I bought the kit from my LHBS. The guy said they go through them pretty quick and it should be fresh, but he also told me he had never done a kit in his life and only brewed recipes when I asked him if it was good, so he's obviously making no effort to sell these to people and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they didn't turn over quickly. It took him a minute to figure out where on the shelves the DIPA one was when I asked about it.

 

[kh54s10]

That recipe shouldn't have much if any toasty/malty flavor to it. Carbing issues would be with the health of the yeast or how the bottles are stored. Are they at room temperature? Cold crashing should not have any effect on bottle carbing either.

What yeast did you use, it's age, and how did you prepare it?

Did you have any scorching of the extracts. Any tough to clean layer of crud on the bottom of the pot. Make sure the pot is not on the heat when adding extracts and stir very well to keep them from dropping to the bottom and scorching.

The age might contribute but that would have to be quite old. There should be manufacturing dates on the package somewhere.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

It was stored in a closet to carb where the temp is generally high 70s. It went into the low 80s a bit during a major heat spell but stayed in the 78-82 range the whole time. I had a digital temperature monitor in the closet to keep track.

It was US-05 yeast unrehydrated per the packet instructions. I did only use 1 packet and I've read people sometimes use 2 for high gravity beers, but the kit only said to use one. I don't remember exact age but it was well before expiration date. It seemed to attenuate well because I hit the exact gravities they predicted.

I was actually pretty careful about adding the LME. I think I may have scorched slightly on the 1st batch but this one I took it off the heat to add the LME and carefully stirred it in. I was maybe too careful because after adding it took awhile to get the water back to boiling, but I didn't notice any crud on the bottom of the kettle like my first brew.

 

[kh54s10]

It was stored in a closet to carb where the temp is generally high 70s. It went into the low 80s a bit during a major heat spell but stayed in the 78-82 range the whole time. I had a digital temperature monitor in the closet to keep track.

It was US-05 yeast unrehydrated per the packet instructions. I did only use 1 packet and I've read people sometimes use 2 for high gravity beers, but the kit only said to use one. I don't remember exact age but it was well before expiration date. It seemed to attenuate well because I hit the exact gravities they predicted.

I was actually pretty careful about adding the LME. I think I may have scorched slightly on the 1st batch but this one I took it off the heat to add the LME and carefully stirred it in. I was maybe too careful because after adding it took awhile to get the water back to boiling, but I didn't notice any crud on the bottom of the kettle like my first brew.

Seems like you took the proper precautions. I rehydrate because once I read not to on a package. The the same day while on the internet I found a video of a lab tech from the same company saying that you SHOULD rehydrate.
Maybe there is something in that recipe that you just don't like. Brew another batch of a slightly different style and see if the toasty/malty flavor is not there. If it is still there, further scrutiny will be needed.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Seems like you took the proper precautions. I rehydrate because once I read not to on a package. The the same day while on the internet I found a video of a lab tech from the same company saying that you SHOULD rehydrate.
Maybe there is something in that recipe that you just don't like. Brew another batch of a slightly different style and see if the toasty/malty flavor is not there. If it is still there, further scrutiny will be needed.

Thanks for the insight. Yeah I'm hoping I can switch up some of the variables and figure it out, whether its a process thing or maybe it was just not my style of recipe. Since I'm only using DME in my next one and definitely adding a bunch late maybe I'll notice some difference. I might try to rehydrate as well, see if that changes anything. I'm going to do smaller 2.5 gal batches too, so I can brew more often and experiment more. With the smaller batches I can eventually try grain BIAB pretty easily too and see if that helps at all. Oh yeah I also discovered brewersfriend.com recently, pretty helpful

 

[davidabcd]

Hey guys/gals. Sorry, this is going to be long winded, but looking for some guidance here. This is my first brew ever and it didn't turn out quite as I thought it would so I'm hoping for some pointers.

I did the NB Grapefruit Pulpin and I bottled it about 8 days ago. I tried one last night to see where it was at in regards to carbonation and it's actually carbonating quite well! I can honestly say that is the one aspect of the beer that I'm REALLY happy with.

I followed the recipe to a T in regards to the boil and the dry hopping. Where I didn't quite follow the recipe is the length of time in the primary. I did actually do a secondary to do the dry hopping/grapefruit peel. It was in the primary for 10 days. I then transferred to secondary with the dry hops and the grapefruit peel for 5 days. When I took the OG reading it was 1.064 and FG was 1.012, which told me that fermentation was complete, so I felt I was ok to transfer to secondary.

So here's my problems with the beer...
1. It's very cloudy (See pics). Even on the deck with the sun behind it, it's very cloudy. I did drink a Pseudo Sue right after it and that was also cloudy, so that made me feel a bit better about it. I just feel like mine is excessively cloudy.
2. It's very dark. For an IPA, I feel it's a heck of a lot darker than it should be. (See the 3rd picture looking down at it from an angle - that's about the color it is just sitting in a room). Is this something that can be corrected by doing LME later in the boil instead of boiling for the full 60 min? I followed the recipe exactly in regards to the LME additions. (Recipe attached)
3. It has a very heavy malt flavor in the background. Don't get me wrong, the beer is good and I will drink the heck out of it, but it tastes more like a.... some sort of bitter irish red ale maybe? The malt flavor in the background is more prominent than the hop flavor, although as it warms a bit, you get quite a bit of bitter in the back of your throat.

Sorry for the long winded post. Just not sure what happened with this one that would have caused these things.

Thanks.

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Even the "bad" photo looks great. What was your complaint again? That's your first one? It carbonated AND it tastes like beer? Just joshing you. It's awesome you're shooting for perfection.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Even the "bad" photo looks great. What was your complaint again? That's your first one? It carbonated AND it tastes like beer? Just joshing you. It's awesome you're shooting for perfection.

Ha, yep, that was the first one. 17 brews in now and things have gotten much better and I've learned a lot since that one! Part of me almost wants to brew it again to see how different it comes out, knowing what I know now.

 

[NGD]

Ha, yep, that was the first one. 17 brews in now and things have gotten much better and I've learned a lot since that one! Part of me almost wants to brew it again to see how different it comes out, knowing what I know now.

You should. Do a small batch.

I did this with a belgian blonde that gave me an issue the first time. I nailed it the 2nd time, but made a full 5gal batch again. As a result I need a break from belgians for awhile.

 

[davidabcd]

Ha, yep, that was the first one. 17 brews in now and things have gotten much better and I've learned a lot since that one! Part of me almost wants to brew it again to see how different it comes out, knowing what I know now.

My first beer was supposed to taste like Bass. It tasted like a Newcastle that wasn't quite right. But drinkable. I didn't even know you were supposed to mill the grain.
That's one I may revisit because, as you said, "Knowing what I know now."