Cuvee De Trolls clone recipe question

[Travis K. Jansen]

I love cuvee, and I found this recipe last night offering to be a clone:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/drom-john-cuvée-des-trolls-clone.579777/

I'm fairly new to brewing but I'm guessing that recipe is what's called a partial mash?

I'd like to give it a try though I haven't graduated from extracts yet. Is there an extract equivalent?

Seems like partial mash isn't that much more advanced than extract, so I'm willing to try it.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

I love cuvee, and I found this recipe last night offering to be a clone:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/drom-john-cuvée-des-trolls-clone.579777/

I'm fairly new to brewing but I'm guessing that recipe is what's called a partial mash?

I'd like to give it a try though I haven't graduated from extracts yet. Is there an extract equivalent?

Seems like partial mash isn't that much more advanced than extract, so I'm willing to try it.

So, I chatted with the guys from NB and they told me this is a partial mash recipe. I'd like to know how to tell the difference between partial mash and just steeping the grains just by looking at a recipe like this. I have done steeping, but not partial mash yet. The amount of stuff to learn in this hobby is overwhelming!

 

[jmcquesten]

So, I chatted with the guys from NB and they told me this is a partial mash recipe. I'd like to know how to tell the difference between partial mash and just steeping the grains just by looking at a recipe like this. I have done steeping, but not partial mash yet. The amount of stuff to learn in this hobby is overwhelming!

The giveaway is whenever a recipe says light "LME" or "DME" (liquid malt extract or dry malt extract). There is a way to convert an extract or partial extract recipe to all grain. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but a quick search should find it.

Also, the amount of grain used should indicate extract, partial, and all grain. Steeping and mini-mashing are pretty similar, but steeping is usually just for dark specialty malts (not base malt).

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

The giveaway is whenever a recipe says light "LME" or "DME"

Don't partial mashes and all extract both mention LME and DME?

I think part of my confusion is that this recipe says "steep for 90 min" but in a partial mash it seems you have to do the sparge/rinse step. So, is it steep, or is it sparge?

Thanks for being patient with me. I want to take the next step from full extract and I'm just trying to understand it all. I'm researching sparge and grain bed and boil volume and etc.

 

[jmcquesten]

Don't partial mashes and all extract both mention LME and DME?

I think part of my confusion is that this recipe says "steep for 90 min" but in a partial mash it seems you have to do the sparge/rinse step. So, is it steep, or is it sparge?

Thanks for being patient with me. I want to take the next step from full extract and I'm just trying to understand it all. I'm researching sparge and grain bed and boil volume and etc.

Yes, they both mention extract. I guess the biggest difference is the amount and type of grain that is being "steeped". If it's just a small amount of specialty malt (crystal, roasted, chocolate) being used for color/flavor, that would be considered steeping and you wouldn't expect any conversion. If it were those same few lbs of specialty malt, plus a few lbs of base malt (2-row, pilsner, Vienna, Munich, maris Otter, etc), that would be considered partial mash. The "sparge" step is optional, and could be used in either situation. I think a true "mini-mash" with extract, would actually mash all of the grain in the proper amount of water, then after the mash (and optional sparge), you would combine that with whatever volume of water needed to get you to your preboil volume 5.5 to 6 gallons, then bring to boil and add extract.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Interesting. So sparging is optional in both cases. Man, I could use a brew buddy in Milwaukee to teach me the ropes.

 

[jmcquesten]

Sparging is just rinsing the grain after mashing (or steeping) to try to get whatever is left on the grain after draining or removing grain bag from water. It is a good idea to do it but it's not what makes the difference between steeping and mashing.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Thanks for your help. I'm gonna give this recipe a shot.

 

[madscientist451]

If you haven't read John Palmer's free online book "How to Brew", its definitely worth your time.
My explanation of Steeping and then using extract is that you aren't trying to convert any of the malt sugar to fermentable sugars, you're just trying to get some flavor and color out of the steeping grain.
A Partial Mash is when you ARE tying to convert some of the sugars but you are still adding extract.
You can just do a 90 minute steep if you want to, you can take the grain out and rinse (sparge), or you can dunk the bag up and down in the steeping vessel.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

I actually just purchased John's 4th edition book a few days ago and started reading that. I'm guessing the 4th edition is even better than the 1st?

I did start reading it, and there's a lot of stuff that is definitely over my head right now, but I'll get there, I think.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

P.S., Madscientest, thanks for the clarification. It started to click that the conversion and the grain type is the key difference between the two.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Welp, here's what I came up with. Going to brew this weekend...

 

[Calder]

What mash steps are you planning to do?

My suggestion - not put too much thought into it. Heat 12 quarts of water up to 160 F (1 lbs b grain = 1.35 quarts - water to grain ratio can vary). Use a 5 gallon paint straining bag (available for $2 from hardware store, and is reusable). Line pot with bag. Add crushed grains to 160 F water (inside the bag). Stir occasionally, and place lid on pot to retain heat. Temp after addinggrains will be about 148 F. 146 to 150 F is OK.

Mash for about 30 minutes.

While this is mashing, heat remaining water in a separate pot to about 175 F. You will lose about 4 quarts with 9 lbs of grain, so you will get about 8 quarts from the original mash. To get to 4 gallons, you will need ~ 2 more gallons for the sparge.

When mash is over, remove the bag withthe grains. Allow to drain for a while and capture the wort. Then put the bag with the grains into the second pot with the 175 F water. Leave for about 10 minutes, stirring occasionally. Remove grains (still in the bag), and leave to drain You can leave it to drain for as long as you like while you mix the mash and sparge water into a single pot and bring to boil. Add any remaining drained liquid to the pot. ....... And you will have done your first mash.

Good luck.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Hey @Calder , thanks for the reply. I'm going to do BIAB. I bought @wilserbrewer bag system that should arrive tomorrow or Friday. I am debating on whether or not to sparge. Part of me thinks I'll get more out of it, and the other part says I won't gain much and my volumes will be off. I'm thinking no-sparge, just a squeeze and maybe a light rinse.

I scaled this recipe from a 5.5 down to a 3 just to try it.

I was going to mash for 75 mins, mash out for 10, and then boil. P.S. there's only about 6.82 lb of grain, not 9. We'll see how it goes! I'm very excited. Also, I was just told that Pilsner malts often need a longer boil to get rid of DMS. Doing some research on that now...

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Well folks, today was brew day, and here's my results:

Started with 4.5g of water
Mashed at 152 for 75 minutes
Squeezed bag at the end

Pre-boil:
4g of water

Hit 1.046 on the head, very happy with that

Post boil:
2.5g of water

Hit 1.074, recipe estimated 1.063. I think this was due to having less water than expected
Topped up with .5g and pitched.
At the 1.074, we're at around 8.66%. I'm guessing we'll be closer to the 1.063, bringing us to right near the target of 7.3%. I didn't take another reading cause I had already pitched at that point. Top-off water always messes with my readings anyways. So, at least I know my boil-off at this level.

Color looks good. Can't wait to try this one!!

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Heh, playing with some labels...