Is There a way to Deconstruct this Beer Information to Make an Extract Based Clone Recipe?

[landmissle]

While on vacation up in Oregon, I had a (several...) Pelican Sea n' Red ale. My wife and I really enjoyed it. I'm thinking about trying to reproduce it. I haven't yet contacted the brewer to see if they would release the details, but I was wondering if there's some 'rules of thumb' to follow that might get me close to cloning this beer in extract recipe form. Here's their published information on the brew.

Besides the ratio of the speciality grains and total amount, I would see needing to know how much pale malt extract to use (7, 8lbs?) for a 5 gallon batch. The other thing that I'm wondering about is the hops boil time. They only list one hop, Santiam. Would you assume it's a 60 minute addtion?

Thanks for any feedback at all.

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

I would start with an Irish red recipe. Take a look at the BJCP style guideline for Irish red to get an idea of what numbers to aim for. Since this has an ABV of 5.4% I would shoot for a 1.055 O.G. which should be closer to 7lbs LME depending on how much specialty malts contribute. Typically Irish red does not have lat hop additions, but the description "subtle floral bouquet" suggests they use late hop additions, I would make sure to add hops with less than 20 minutes in the boil. The other aroma discripcptors suggests caramel and roasted malts. It might be good to make a few small test batches to workout a recipe worth making 5 gallons of.

 

[mashdar]

Sadly no way to tell much from that description. Was there more on the bottle? (Where did you get hop info?)

It sounds like a pretty standard Irish red (NOT american red). Maybe start with one of those, and adjust specialy malt and hops based on whatever info you can get?

This BYO article has an extract recipe:
Irish Red Ale - Brew Your Own (1.052 OG seems high to me; IMO 1.040 is dandy for a red. You could look at bottle ABV for guidance.)
And try searching this forum, too!

edit: wow the mobile site is garbage compared to desktop version. I see more info now.

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

edit: wow the mobile site is garbage compared to desktop version. I see more info now.

Thanks for the heads up. I was zooming in to the beer bottle to get the ABV and extrapolate the O.G.

 

[landmissle]

Hey guys! Thanks for the feedback so far. I just left a message on their web-site asking if they would release the recipe to me. Can't hurt to ask.....

 

[IslandLizard]

According to the link you posted, the base malt is Golden Promise.

AFAIK there's no GP extract (LME or DME) available. You may be able to use Maris Otter malt extract instead, which is also a tasty English malt variety but not the same as GP. I like GP very much, especially in English/Scottish type ales.

They only list one hop, Santiam. Would you assume it's a 60 minute addtion?

Most likely a 60', then a late addition at 20', or 10' or flameout (0').
But craft brewers may tweak that to match their vision of how the beer should taste, and may add a small whirlpool/hopstand addition to make the hop flavor/aroma pop.
______
From Pelican Brewing's website:
ABV: 5.4%
IBU: 25
PLATO: 13° ==> SG: 1.053
INGREDIENTS: Golden Promise Malt, Melanoidin Malt, Caramel Malt, Chocolate Malt, Santiam Hops, Pure Ale Yeast, Pure Coastal Water | CAL: 169 per 12 oz

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Golden Promise Malt, Melanoidin Malt, Caramel Malt, Chocolate Malt, Santiam Hops, Pure Ale Yeast, Pure Coastal Water | CAL: 169 per 12 oz

13 degrees plato would mean your OG around 1.050 to 1.053 I think. S-04 is probably a pretty good yeast, if the brewer won't tell you.

Does anyone know the makeup for Munton's Amber DME? @D.B.Moody perhaps?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

While on vacation up in Oregon, I had a (several...) Pelican Sea n' Red ale. My wife and I really enjoyed it

I was at Pelican a couple of times in the mid to late 2010s. Good to read that they are still making good beer!

I just left a message on their web-site asking if they would release the recipe to me. Can't hurt to ask.....

Any additional information will be helpful.

Here's their published information on the brew.

Converting all-grain Golden Promise + Melanoidin to an "extract" equivalent is the challenge.

For hops, start with a 60 min addition for most of the bittering -- plus what @Somesaymybeerisdrinkable menteioned in #2 ("subtle floral bouquet").

For yeast, assume a common liquid Irish Ale yeast. There are likely to be some reasonable dry yeast alternatives.

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I was wondering if there's some 'rules of thumb' to follow that might get me close to cloning this beer

aside: The "Brew Strong" network has a (currently dormant) podcast called "Can You Brew It?" (link) "dedicated to homebrew cloning your favorite commercial beers".

Given the description from the brew (link) ...

This smooth, richly flavored beer has a malt aroma reminiscent of toffee /1/, caramel /2/, and cocoa /3/ with a subtle floral bouquet. The lush aroma gives way to a full, rounded malty flavor with toasty biscuit-like character /4/ and notes of caramel /2/.

... I'll make some observations on malts based on flavor descriptions

/1/ typically crystal 40 or 60​

/2/ typically crystal 60​

/3/ Chocolate (350L) or maybe Light Chocolate (200L) /5/​

/4/ Melanoidin Malt​

/5/ Make Your Best Irish Red​

For better/best results, Melanoidin malt probably should be "mashed" rather than "steeped".

---

pale malt extract

• Are you thinging using Bries Pale Ale DME/LME
• Are you in a position where you can "steep" some base malts in RO water for 45 minutes?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Does anyone know the makeup for Munton's Amber DME? @D.B.Moody perhaps?

or maybe @ncbrewer ?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Does anyone know the makeup for Munton's Amber DME? @D.B.Moody perhaps?

I sent a query to Munton's and never heard back.

 

[madscientist451]

If you want to clone it, skip the extract and do small batch BIAB on your stove. Start with the “make your best” recipe above, add some pale chocolate, switch out your hops and go from there. 2-3 gallon BIAB batches are easy and fun. Please post your results.

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

Briess Pale Ale LME/DME says it's made with 100% pale ale malt. Maybe maris otter malt extract if that is still available would be a good substitute for the base malt. I'm not sure if golden promise is used to make any extracts.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Anecdotally, and without true A/B testing, I find Munton's Amber DME to be a fine substitute for Golden Promise. Two batches of simple ordinary bitter, one GP all-grain, the other Amber DME, brewed about a month apart came out rather close. A third batch, Breiss PA DME, seemed wanting.

 

[dmtaylor]

I would recommend roughly 3.3 lb Maris Otter extract plus 3 lb Munton's amber DME, that should get you into the ballpark for the malt. I haven't pumped this into a calculator, but if gravity adjustment is needed, use a little less DME or add a little plain white table sugar, accordingly. EDIT: I confirmed this in a calculator. Pretty dang close to this. If anything, add a couple ounces of sugar and you'll be in great shape.

For the hops, I'd add a charge at start of the boil, and another with about 5 minutes left in the boil for flavor and aroma.

For yeast, you could use an Irish yeast, or S-04 or Nottingham would all do just fine.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Williams Brewing makes an American Red Extract (LME). I brewed with it a couple of times this past spring. No problems with "darker than expected".

If getting color right is a concern, light (200L) chocolate malt would be a better starting point than 350L chocolate malt.