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Cut back first hop shoots? Or wait and cut back all but best 3?

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I have heard somewhere that when you have an early crop that you can often harvest and get a second crop in the same year. At this rate you may well be able to get three. Wow. I chopped mine (second years) back and then forgot about them and fount they were a foot and a half tall this weekend. I trained them and culled back to 4 shoots to grow up the lines.
 
OKay, so I have cut them back, and now the stems that have been cut back, have sprouted double new shoots out of the nodes where the leaves are..and they are growing. Can these be considered viable shoots to train or will they be weak, or have the same traits of the bull shoot, if they were a bull shoot to start with, hard to tell...

Should I only train new shoots from the crown? If no new shoots show up by my training date, should I use the new growth from the cut shoots?

Thanks Obiwans..
 
". . . now the stems have been cut back, have sprouted double new shoots . . .", this is what happens when you don't cut them back all the way to the crown. If you leave a node in tact, you'll have twice as many as you started out with. These can be trained without worrying about them being bull shoots. The other option is to cut these all the way back and wait for some deeper buds to send up shoots to train. I don't know how healthy your plants are so I wouldn't recommend cutting them all the way back and end up having you miraculously killing one of them, haha. You could experiment and cut one back all the way and train another one from the split shoots you have and compare the difference at harvest. It's always best to learn from your own doings, at least it is for me.
 
Thanks Bob!

Appreciate all the help here and the forums in general. I'll try your suggestions....as I now have 135 plants to play with. :ban: Planted the last 5 Galenas on Monday and now all the holes are filled and rows are complete. As I was walking around the hop yard last night, I had a bizarre thought...it would be so easy to double the size of the yard by just taking 1 rhizome from each plant....scary thought. :drunk: It's taken me 3 years to get where I am already, I probably have enough work for one guy to manage, with my son's occasional help.

Cheers
 
This is a correction of post #56 of this thread. I edited that post with a correction statement and said I would re-post, so here it is.

Reason for edit: I had the daylength thing wrong - I based the long-day comments on the "Grower Notes 2016.pdf" (Great Lakes Hops) document B-Hoppy had shared (pg 22 - "It takes between four to six weeks for a cut hop to recover and regrow the 12 internode leaf sets needed to accept the long day length signal that initiates burr formation." I think this is incorrect. Hops are short day plants and are induced to flower in SHORT days before or after the longest days of mid-summer; this is from several scientific publications listed in the original post of the "Inducing Hops to Flower" thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=471404). There you will also read that it is not just 10-12 nodes, but the node # required for floral induction is variety-dependent. And, for completeness, if the days are too short the plants will begin to go into their dormant phase - although this is not a problem with field grown hops in our normal seasons. I have seen on my own hops the appearance of visible flower buds before the solstice - and since visible buds mean floral induction quite some time before, it is clear that the hops were induced to flower in shorter days earlier in the spring. Let me also point out that no one is putting hard numbers on precise day lengths, photoperiod, (actually night lengths does the magic...) or node number since this does seem to vary by variety. And I am not sure (since people don't make it clear) if the node number requirement includes the formed nodes (primordia) in the compressed shoot apex, or visible nodes with expanding; it is probably this visible nodes since field researchers can't be counting the hidden primordial nodes.

Simple fact is we often see the first unopened flower buds around mid-June to the solstice (in the northern latitudes; earlier if growth starts earlier in the southlands), but they were induced to flower and started making those buds much earlier in the spring. That "asparagus" looking shoot is highly compressed and already has many leaf and bud primordia buried down in the apical region invisible when just looking at the outside. Here is a link of a section of a shoot apex (this is not hops, but illustrates the point of compressed shoots and primordia):
http://www.vcbio.science.ru.nl/publi...ipOverview.jpg

So if you are cutting back to control the size of the mature plant, or to try to set a harvest date, you need to have "sufficient" regrowth before approaching the longest days, else flower induction may be delayed until post-solstice shorter days and make maturation quite late or reduce the crop. I can say that I have cut back Chinook, Cascade, Nugget, Willamette at my location in Massachusetts on May5 (2015) and got "normal" growth and flowering and crop (picked 3rd week of August), but smaller plants than un-cut plants in previous years.

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Edited post, hopefully correct...
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This discussion has been great. That literature b-hoppy shared has helped me understand a lot about hops growing. I hadn't found a complete discussion of this in any one place. For me, it is important to understand WHY we do something since that informs us of how it should be done in other conditions. I'm going to summarize some takeaways I've gained from this discussion and that literature and maybe people can edit the summary so we get it close to right and as simple as possible.

First of all and very important, hops culture will depend on your location (latitude, climate) and the vigor of the variety you are dealing with. Hops will tend to produce the most crop on the upper part of the growth. A hop that can start growing early in the season (early spring, mild climate, long days) will produce a bine that will get very large, possibly overgrowing the available trellis and drooping over and getting thick and tangled, and this will be hard to harvest and the thick, tangled growth may encourage disease. A very vigorous variety in excellent soil conditions will have more tendency in this direction than a less vigorous variety. You will need to observe how your hops grow in your soils and location and adjust any cutting back to fit your situation.

The spring and early season management can be determined by backing up from the end of season. You want the cones mature and dry before the season gets too advanced. In the Northeast the season rapidly gets cool and damp toward the end of August. I like to get my cones mature and picked around mid-August. Other locations will be different. But from experience, start with that general harvest date and back up to determine when to do any final cut-back (if it is needed at all!).

You want your trellis to be about 20' high and you want the mature hops to fill the trellis at the end of season. Hops will tend to overgrow anything smaller and this is why most commercial trellis systems are about this height.

You want the bines to have 12+ nodes by the solstice*; a minimum number of nodes (variety dependent!) is needed to allow floral induction during the short days before or after the solstice. Hops are sensitive to photoperiod - day, or night length. The bines will be florally induced in the short days before/after the long days of mid-summer. It takes about 6-8 weeks for a cut back bine to reach sufficient size (node#) and be sensitive to the short days (long nights!). (? variety, vigor, microenvironment dependent). The bines will continue to elongate and will begin producing flowers and sidearms at the leaf nodes for about another month and will fill out the trellis without overgrowing (? based on vigor of plants).
* This is from post #51 of this thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=232819&page=6); Also see references in the original post of this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=471404

The flowers take about a month from burr stage until cones are mature and ready to pick (variable, by variety and environment). Since the flowering occurs over some time (earlier on lower nodes/side arms, later in the upper regions) you want to use a date that is the average for the bulk of the crop for that variety in your location.

People report getting 2 harvests in places where the growing season is sufficiently long.

A streamline summary for the Northern US:
1) Cut back (if needed, last time) 6-8 weeks before the solstice so that you have sufficient nodes produced before the solstice. Yes, you can cut back to the ground (if needed). They will grow. Established hops are very difficult to kill.
2) Hops will continue to grow, make sidearms, and flower (burr stage) for about a month after the solstice.
3) The burrs will mature to cones and ripen in about a month after burr stage.
4) Adjust this for your location and climate, variety and vigor.

And don't neglect to prune the rhizomes of the hops in in the second year and beyond. The rhizomes are not the roots. If you study the shoots from the hop crown you see that the ones at the center grow mostly upright, while the ones at the periphery will tend to be almost horizontal. There are even ones you don't see that ARE horizontal and at/below the surface; these are the developing rhizomes. The rhizomes are a means of the hop plant to spread itself and this serves no purpose to producing a hops crop. Study the hops plant and learn it's ways. The rhizomes start in early to mid season of established plants. If you have light, organic soil it is easy to find them in mid/late summer - white, succulent, horizontally growing "shoots" that are in the upper few inches of the soil, pushing up an emergent shoot at the outer end. The roots are tan and will have fibrous roots; don't prune these. The rhizomes will send up shoots at their tips, and eventually the white succulent young rhizome shoot becomes tougher and will develop fibrous roots, and this would establish a competing and choking new crown. The rhizomes can be removed at any time, but it may enough to do it every spring in established plants. You are not hurting your plant to cut it back (as needed) and remove rhizomes, or even root prune beyond a 2 foot radius of the crown. All of this cutting and pruning keeps the plant vigorous and able to produce the crop you wish to produce.

Hope this helps!

Cheers!
 
I cut the first growth for the first time this year today May 11th and was wondering if I trimmed too late in the game. I trimmed all plants back to only leave the shoots that are shorter than 12". All plants being 4th year Cascade, 2nd year Willamette and 2nd year Columbus. I have a first year Chinook as well but will not be trimming back. I live in Colorado literally on the 40th parallel. I trimmed off what looked like 50 shoots off Cascade and some of them were 4' or longer. The other 2 were more tamed. Looking back at my records I did my first trimming last year on April 22nd and trained the tallest bines from that trimming on that day. Reading more about it now, I probably should have waited to train them and kept the smallest bines. Could have been why I didn't get a bunch of hops that year. They were all transplants from a buddy and my first year growing hops. I'm still learning.

I'm just worried that I messed up and shouldn't have trimmed back this late in the game.

This thread has helped out a ton! Any info, wether good or bad, would be helpful.

Cheers!
 
What it sounds like is that of your first big flush of growth, you cut back the big ones and left a few smaller ones to train. If this is correct, you're good to go.
 
What it sounds like is that of your first big flush of growth, you cut back the big ones and left a few smaller ones to train. If this is correct, you're good to go.

I knew I could count on you B-Hoppy! Your comments have been very helpful on this thread. Thanks for helping!:mug:
 
Well here we are nearing the solstice and I have noticed very slow growth on some of my plants, probably 1/3 of the 135. I haven't had the time to tend to the yard in the last month and as a result, there are lots of new shoots that have grown out from the crown and laying on the ground, some of them are 4' or more. I am wondering if I should salvage these shoots and get them trained on the plants that are only 4-6' tall, or cut them back and hope the short trained bines take off. I am thinking that I may be able to get a decent harvest if I keep them all, even though they are short. More bines, more cones.

Or am I going down the wrong path and should cut all the shoots on the ground and hope the existing bines take off up the rest of the way.

Your thoughts?

Cheers

DSC_4495.jpg
 
My sense is that with the long days you have there those trained bines will continue growing and fill out quite a bit to make a crop. I think that the untrained wild growth at the base has probably sapped some of the strength from the trained ones, but that is past and you are looking forward. I don't think training more bines up the strings will accomplish much - would get too crowded; but I do know that late growth can make a small crop - I would just worry about too much crowding for light/air if you do that, and they may not mature at the same time; take away that basal competition and they will extend and fill out yet. If they were mine, I'd probably prune things up at the base - train up more only if there are few on the strings already. I can't tell from a distance, but maybe your soil is sandy/gravel? (I'm just guessing from the terrain and vegetation I see). They might benefit from a shot of nitrogen about now and that would support the further growth and flowering.
 
Thanks Toadhall,

As soon as it stops raining...arg 3 days now...I will go out and make a closer assessment of each plant and either train a few more of the shorter ones, or just cut all the ground shoots right back. Agree that the ones on the ground are probably drawing away resources that could go into the trained bines. I reviewed last years pictures and found that July 8th they were about where they are now, and by Aug. were at the wire, so there is still hope for the shorties. I will get out the 5-1-1 fishalizer and give them a small shot of 46-0-0 granular as well. I put on a couple of shovel fulls of horse poop on each crown last fall and may go around and put on some more. It's about 5 years old and well rotted. Yes, pretty sandy/gravelly soil, although in years past (15 or so) this area was a horse coral.

I'll let you know how its going in another few weeks.

cheers
 
Conditions here have been pretty good so far. I did have some bine breakage in some strong winds in early June, and birds like to perch on the uppermost shoots of the slanted wires of my teepees so they have broken a few bine tips. I'm still waiting to see the results of cutting back. On 4/29 I cut back all my plants except a few to use as a comparison for un-cut; all were growing well before cutting back, but varied a bit by variety. After cutting back they were a bit variable in starting regrowth, some started immediately with new shoots, and some took 3 weeks to show new buds, so the regrowth is going to be a bit hard to interpret with only 22 plants total. Those slow to regrow are mostly shorter, but some of the cutback plants caught up with the cut mates and developmentally seem at the same stage now. Some of the cut ones reached the 22' pole tops 6/15; some on the angled wires are a few feet away, but probably about the same actual bine length (allowing for the hypotenuse length...). Cut or uncut they seemed to start producing sidearms at about the same time, and I am seeing flower buds emerging in the axils of both groups since about June 7-10. Guess I have to wait and see about differences in flower density, distribution, crop size, cone size, etc.

This was the time of year we got rain and warmth last summer that set off some Downy Mildew on the more sensitive plants (Santiam, Willamette) and so far that has not hit and all are clean. Maybe it will be a good season, but there is SO much time for disasters yet :)

DSCF0735.jpg
 
I honestly don't know the science behind it since I am not a biologist. My guess would be that the first shoots put the rhizome in 'grow mode' and whatever energy is gained through photosynthesis from those first shoots is stored in the root making the root bigger to support the shoots that you cut off. The root doesn't know that those original shoots are cut off so it supplies more nutrients to the next shoots that grow. I may be completely full of crap but that growing process is the simplified version that i have been told for years. My degree is in history so science is not my thing. Maybe we need one of those fancy hop farmers to chime in.
I've heard it's because the first shoots are hollow, and subsequent shoots are not. So they can support more yield.
 
Pruning the 1st growth sets the plants timing.You really dont want them on the rope until the end of May,1st of June.I trim back around the 3rd week of April.If you train to early the plants race up the rope and produce few side shoots.Last couple of days to order Rhizomes Cheers Glen
 
Pruning the 1st growth sets the plants timing.You really dont want them on the rope until the end of May,1st of June.I trim back around the 3rd week of April.If you train to early the plants race up the rope and produce few side shoots.Last couple of days to order Rhizomes Cheers Glen
This sounds right. I have third year plants that I let grow on the rope in mid-late April last year. They were flowering by June and didn't have many side shoots. I want them to ripen in early August, so this year I'm going to cut them back around May 15 and see how it goes.
 
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