• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

Crystal Malt, Why All The Hate?

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The longer I brew, the more simple my recipes are.

For years, I experienced my beers with crystal would oxidize quicker. Most of the time I could pick up oxidized flavors at about month 4 or 5.this wasn’t the case with non crystal recipes. It was odd, they would taste great one day, and the next I would pick up off flavors.

I was just having a conversation recently with a guy at the lhbs, and mentioned it to him. He said that he had heard the same and it was on a recent podcast.

Interestingly, he said it was a thing with medium crystal malts but bot light or heavy malts. Also said that others reported that this didn’t happen with British crystal.
 
Honestly, a little disillusioned by the BJCPs 180 degree turn in just 7 years??? Apparently there’s no standard for any of this shiznet. 7 years shouldn’t be that long of a time in beer years.
 
Honestly, a little disillusioned by the BJCPs 180 degree turn in just 7 years??? Apparently there’s no standard for any of this shiznet. 7 years shouldn’t be that long of a time in beer years.

Perhaps someone from the program actually went to the UK and discovered that peated malt is not used.
 
Honestly, a little disillusioned by the BJCPs 180 degree turn in just 7 years??? Apparently there’s no standard for any of this shiznet. 7 years shouldn’t be that long of a time in beer years.

This actually just highlights why everybody should not really give much about what is written in those guidelines. Those are guidelines for a competition. Artificial rules that do not necessarily have to comply with the real world.

If you want real world, check the respective country or ask somebody from there to give you an idea about what the beer in question is actually all about.
 
So the guidelines suggest one thing, and then judges ignore it and hand out gold medals? That sounds like a problem with the judging process ignoring the guidelines - or judges not knowing enough about the style to judge it appropriately. But hopefully as things evolve, people get more experience and they know what to look for.



Whereas I'm struggling to contain the expletives at how &^%$ing clueless the US can be about British beer. Seriously - I have never seen a British recipe with 27% crystal, yet you're trying to hold it up as a benchmark?



++++++++++1

Who gives a damn what judges think who have never sat in a British pub (or at best, a London tourist gaff), when the recipes of actual British brewers are readily available? You could take Fuller's as an example - their beers are a benchmark of the Thames Valley style which is relatively crystal heavy by British standards, but we have their actual brewbooks saying they use 7.2% crystal. And that's just one regional style - compare with the definitive Manchester bitter which is essentially a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH with no crystal whatsoever.

Just looking through Ron Pattinson's recipes since June from actual British brewers we have :

1959 Fullers Nourishing Stout (2.65% ABV) - 7.4% crystal, 37% sugar, 7.4% maize
1964 Eldridge Pope Double Stout (3.2%) - 15.7% crystal 60, 12.2% sugar, 5.2% lactose
1962 Clarke 1/5 Nobby Brown Ale (2.84%) - 0% crystal, 23% sugar, 6.6% maize
1946 Barclay Perkins KK (bottling) (3.9%) - 4.8% crystal, 15.7% sugar
1958 William Younger No. 3 Scotch Ale (3.97%) - 0% crystal, 5.1% sugar, 30.8% maize
1958 William Younger Brown Ale (3.44%) - 0% crystal, 11.5% sugar, 30.8% maize
1959 Watneys Dairy Maid Sweet Stout (2.91%) - 0% crystal, 22.3% sugar
1956 Tennant's Gold Label (11.05%) - 0% crystal, 12.6% sugar, 18.4% maize
1952 Shepherd Neame SXX (4.37%) - 0% crystal, 2.6% sugar
1948 Lees Bitter (3.7%) - 0% crystal, 10.8% sugar
1961 Thomas Usher P 1/4 (3.9%) - 0% crystal, 22.9% sugar, 6.7% maize
1939 Boddington IP (4.56%) - 0% crystal, 7.6% sugar, 20.4% maize
1963 Lees Strong Ale (7.28%) - 2.2% crystal, 18.2% sugar, 6.6% maize
1964 Truman P2 (3.84%) - 1.5% crystal, 9.1% sugar, 4% maize
1957 Lees Export (4.89%) - 4.6% crystal, 15.9% sugar, 6.8% maize

I should have made the cut-off 2 months exactly, which would have knocked off those last three recipes!:) It's a random set of recipes that I'm not claiming is definitive but you get the general idea, in general crystal is used sparingly if at all - obviously crystal would feature more heavily in a collection of Thames Valley Bests from the 1980s. But doesn't a 27% crystal beer just look freaking weird in that company? Yet you hold it out as representative of British brewing!

Ron is on a post-WWII kick at the moment which wasn't the happiest of times for British brewing, what with high taxation, rationing and burgeoning corporatism, but it all looks pretty familiar to a British brewer. OK, you seldom see beers under 3.8% these days, and adjunct use was particularly high; CAMRA's influence has seen adjunct use decline but 6-10% is still pretty common.

So what's going on? Why do US brewers think that British beers need so much more crystal than UK commercial brewers?

Some of it is to do with the availability of ingredients. One reason British brewers seem to have started using crystal in the 20th century was because modern high-yielding barley didn't have the rich flavour of traditional varieties like Chevallier. Even the flavour of something like Maris Otter doesn't compare to Chevallier, and US domestic barleys are blander still - and UK maltsters tend to kiln their malts a little more than their equivalents elsewhere in the world. I suspect that kilning ultimately comes back to that folk memory of Chevallier defining what is "normal" to the British palate. So I get that US brewers used a bit more crystal to compensate for bland US malts in the days when UK malts were hard to get - but there's no excuse now.

In a similar vein, US brewers tend to throw in crystal without appreciating the need to balance it with sugar to dry out the beer - note how only the Eldridge Pope milk stout above has more crystal than sugar. Whilst attitudes to adjuncts have changed a lot in the last 20 years (and tastes have changed as well), all those classic beers have significant amounts of adjunct in them, increasing fermentability, drying it out, and contributing Maillard flavours. You can't look at crystal without looking at invert sugar as its essential partner.

I get the impression that US crystal is less flavoursome than the British equivalent, although I don't have any direct experience with it, so that might explain why more gets used.

Yeast. Historically US brewers tried to make British beers with high-attenuating yeasts like Chico, and then tried to "put the sweetness back" with crystal and ended up with a horrible mess that bore no resemblance to real British beer. Now that lower-attenuating British yeasts are widely available, there's no excuse not to use them.


But there does seem to be a deeper "problem", that US brewers think that British beer is just a lot sweeter than it actually is, and so use crystal to try and match that. Again there's various reasons from what I can tell.

Part of it is the "tourist effect" - London/Oxford/Stonehenge pretty much maps out the heart of the region of crystal-heavy beers, whereas tourists tend not to go to the industrial cities where the taste is for drier beers with less/no crystal. And the beers of the northern cities are less geared for export - Leeds was utterly dominated by Tetley, which was bought by Carlsberg for their pubs and had no great interest in exporting the beer, they demolished the brewery instead. Manchester has several smaller family breweries which are more focussed on selling into their pub estates.

So although huge amounts of eg Lees MPA are drunk on draught, you seldom see them in eg UK supermarkets, let alone in the export market. But it's a good expression of modern British bitter using second-line US hops (Liberty & Mt Hood). You could view something like Track Sonoma as an update on Boddington's using Centennial etc - it's a modern classic but seldom gets to London let alone export markets. Both are a world away from the Thames Valley beers. Instead you guys get what the big companies want to sell which seems to be mostly stuff like Hobgoblin which I find undrinkably sweet, and not at all representative of British beer, but it seems to be reasonably popular across the pond.

Another problem seems to be that visitors end up drinking cask ale in London pubs that don't condition it properly - Landlord in particular suffers from this, I've had pints of it that were sickly sweet from unconverted priming sugar, when it should be taut and dry. The general standard of cellarmanship in London (with some notable exceptions) is a national embarrassment and it doesn't help people get the right idea of what cask is meant to taste like.

So there's no "hate" for crystal - it's just an ingredient, how weird is it to hate an ingredient? But we do get fed up with the opinions of US judges being held up as some kind of proof that high %ages of crystal are "authentic" in British-style beers, when there's no evidence for such %ages being used by actual British brewers.
One thing that you don't mention which really is significant in this phenomena is that British cask beers are carbonated are at very low levels which will make the beer seen significantly fuller than it is. A reverse to contenential styles.

I definitely agree with you about cellar man ship in the UK being poor. There is very few pubs even in London & Essex that I trust to serve quality cask beers. Generally I simply never order them just for that reason. You are best off going to a camra beer festival to get something close to brewery fresh.
 
I haven't compared the BJCP guideline changes in detail, but the changes I've noticed have been in the right direction, more accurately describing what you'll find "in the wild". Beer styles are also a moving target, and if anything BJCP errs on the conservative side. NEIPAs, for example, are not to be found in the 2015 guidelines.

It's a bit of a no-win for them. Change the guidelines and get cursed for not providing an absolute, stable metric. Don't change the guidelines and get cursed for not accurately describing what is actually being brewed, sold, and consumed in the real world.

As suggested above, it's best to view them in the narrow context of competition, which is what they are intended for.
 
I haven't compared the BJCP guideline changes in detail, but the changes I've noticed have been in the right direction, more accurately describing what you'll find "in the wild". Beer styles are also a moving target, and if anything BJCP errs on the conservative side. NEIPAs, for example, are not to be found in the 2015 guidelines.

It's a bit of a no-win for them. Change the guidelines and get cursed for not providing an absolute, stable metric. Don't change the guidelines and get cursed for not accurately describing what is actually being brewed, sold, and consumed in the real world.

As suggested above, it's best to view them in the narrow context of competition, which is what they are intended for.

That’s the problem with all benchmarks. I know that in the 2008 BJCP says a peaty aroma is allowable and I know that the 2015 version says it is inappropriate. So is the 2015 edition more valid? Sort of, but then could belief within our community have been swayed by the BJCP itself? After all, they are one of the few benchmarks for this thing of ours.

I know that a beer that had 27% crystal malt won a gold medal in a competition. I can’t imagine why anyone would just completely discount this fact. Sure the brewer might have blown the judges, maybe he/she killed a chicken and waived some feathers and chicken bones above the brew kettle, but whatever the methods the results were a gold medal. The broken system of idiot American judges still picked that dumper out for gold.

It just doesn’t make sense to me what the majority of brewers are saying on here, that anything (besides stouts/porters) over 10% crystal malt is at best unauthentic and likely if not indubitably a dumper or made by a beginner. These beliefs just don’t fit the facts.

It’s easy to discredit a position based in fact. It is paradoxically much harder to discredit a position based in belief.
 
It could be that the judges get tired of tasting much of the same over and over again, and then suddenly their taste buds are sparked when they come across a difference. I believe they are supposed to be aware of and thereby mitigate for this, but who knows? Such judging has to be highly subjective. Objectivity may require analyticals.
 
I dunno, that seems like someone basing a belief on an outlier recipe win and expecting the world to get in line...

Cheers!

Brewdog 5AM Saint - 30% crystal plus another 14% Munich. UK Brewer. Given they call it an American Red Ale.

I can’t tell you how pissed it makes me when UK brewers pretend they know what American beer tastes like. [tongue in cheek].
 
Sorry, I'm off to the pub for lunch so can't reply to everything just yet but here's a start :

Belhaven produces a "Wee Heavy" -- possibly for the US market only?

I think I have seen it here, but it isn't widespread. It's worth noting that production of Fowler's was contracted out to first Heriot and then Belhaven - the head brewer at Belhaven used to work at Heriot. InBev pulled the plug when Belhaven was bought by Greene King, but obviously Belhaven decided to continue with it under their own name.

A lot of British brewers produce US-specific beers, which, along with stuff Michael Jackson and Fred Eckhardt wrote in the '70s and '80s, heavily influenced American beer geeks' , homebrewers', and craft brewers' impressions of British beer. Three of my favorites when I started liking beer were from Sam Smith's: Nut Brown Ale, Taddy Porter, and Oatmeal Stout. Imagine my disappointment upon visiting the Tadcaster brewery in 1987 and finding none of my favorites to be had!

Is that because of restrictive alcohol % laws in the UK?

No, we don't restrict by % per se in the way that eg Scandinavia does, in general I get the impression that our laws are relatively relaxed compared to some of the screwed up stuff that happens in the US wrt eg distribution laws. But we do tax as a proportion of alcohol (so 6% beer pays double the tax of 3% beer, and there's a step up at 7.5%) and Scotland has introduced pretty draconian drink-driving laws.

All the Sam beers you mention are available in the UK. Not being available at the brewery has nothing to do with alcohol laws and everything to do with the fact that Sams is run as Humphrey's personal fiefdom. Which makes it one of the most eccentricly-run companies in the UK, never mind breweries - imagine if Basil Fawlty ran a brewery and you'd get the idea. So they're firmly against new-fangled ideas like brewery tours, having more than one cask beer in their pubs, or using stainless steel barrels. And a whimsical approach to retail availability is just one more element of that -things have got a bit better in the last 30 years though - as it happens I got things like Stingo and the Imperial Stout from a motorway service station just the other week.

Just briefly on BJCP - the 2008 guidelines were considered a joke by the British beer world. To be fair to the BJCP, they listened to the criticism and the 2015 version which I provided a link to, is much better. Still not perfect, but 2015 has a nodding acquaintance with the reality of British beer and eg they sent the draft version of the new Burton Ale category for checking by Ron Pattinson, who has probably read more recipes for commercial Burton Ales than any man alive. So the guidelines aren't perfect, but at least they have the transparency of being published and available for review and valid criticism from people who know their stuff can be incorporated into future versions. Whereas the judging process is far more opaque. So if you're going to rely on any US source for British beer, then the most recent guidelines are probably the least bad place to start.

Can you pointout anywhere that someone said the gold medal beer was "likely if not indubitably a dumper"? I'm sure it was a pleasant beer to drink - none of us can know for sure - but I can say for certain that 27% crystal is way outside the usual parameters for British-style beers. I suspect part of that is a difference in ingredients - any beer with 27% British crystal would be hard work to drink, but maybe not with US crystal. But that's all part of the difficulty in trying to communicate when words like "crystal" can mean different malts in different parts of the world (and let's not even go there with the trademark disputes over the various "cara-" malts!).

Anyway - gotta go, the pub is calling!
 
For years, I experienced my beers with crystal would oxidize quicker. Most of the time I could pick up oxidized flavors at about month 4 or 5.this wasn’t the case with non crystal recipes. It was odd, they would taste great one day, and the next I would pick up off flavors.

This is supposed to be the real reason why crystal has been shunned. It depends upon how long your beers stay on tap. Crystal seems to dominate the flavor profile as time goes on. I try to avoid it for some beers because I can seem to pick it out - that cloyingly sweet flavor at times. But I just finished a keg of Scottish style ale and thought it turned out nice and the grain bill had crystal.

So I would say - be a homebrewer and do what you want. Always search for firsthand knowledge so you can know for yourself and become a real expert.
 
That’s the problem with all benchmarks. I know that in the 2008 BJCP says a peaty aroma is allowable and I know that the 2015 version says it is inappropriate. So is the 2015 edition more valid?
Yes, because it more accurately represents actual Scottish ales. And if you really want to enter your peat-smoked beer in a competition, they've still got you covered:

"Scottish ales with smoke character should be entered as a Classic Style Smoked Beer."
I know that a beer that had 27% crystal malt won a gold medal in a competition. I can’t imagine why anyone would just completely discount this fact.

In addition to the possibilities raised above (1: it really tasted good, and 2: judges are not HPLC machines, but humans and subject to palate fatigue in long competitions), I'll add 3: WHEN did it win gold? I have a good memory of both US craft beer and homebrew from the 1980s and early 1990s. Some of what was considered gold medal fodder then would literally be a dumper today. Ingredients improve. Equipment improves. Standards rise. Tastes get more refined.
 
In a similar vein, US brewers tend to throw in crystal without appreciating the need to balance it with sugar to dry out the beer - note how only the Eldridge Pope milk stout above has more crystal than sugar. Whilst attitudes to adjuncts have changed a lot in the last 20 years (and tastes have changed as well), all those classic beers have significant amounts of adjunct in them, increasing fermentability, drying it out, and contributing Maillard flavours. You can't look at crystal without looking at invert sugar as its essential partner.

Bravo - Somebody finally mentioned invert and then dryness.! :bravo:

I like making my English Styles with invert over crystal for color/taste or do a 50/50 split. I got this advice from Tom Alworth's Book "Brewmasters Secrets"

Let's quote another author Stan Hieronymus author of "Brew Like A Monk". He states in the Do's and Don't's this... Using too much crystal in Belgian Styles will effect your attenuation. He suggests 7% or less of crystal malt OVER..... 40L. The reason is the same for other beer styles. Trying to make a good dubbel or a quad must have forced him to learn this.

A lot of times when creating a recipe I default to crystal when I should think of these other options for color. You can get color from crystal, specialty roasted/toasted malts (carafa's, melanoidin, aromatic, special B) chocolate, roasted barley and inverts and belgian candi sugars. Crystal is mainly for flavor that you can't get necessarily from these other malts or modified sugars. Crystal for color while it works, its really the lovibond identification of the grain, simple name for complex flavor and the color it makes at a said quantity.

To the OP on crystal. Use what you like, take judges with a grain of salt. Also look at multiple sources; published and online, then make an educated decision and brew with it. I have probably two dozen brewing books and at times when I look at recipes they conflict or corroborate my thoughts on the grain bill. You have to experiment and hope you don't make a big mistake. If you do, try to learn from them. Sometimes a mistake can be a blessing.

My signature has a simple recipe for inverts. Its from Tom Alworth's Brewmasters Secret's which he got from Ron Pattinson. Whatever you do, don't use beet sugar or you will be pummeled.

A little secret... I bought a Instant Pot Ultra to make my own crystal malts. It has a custom setting for time and temperature. I can mash 4lbs whole of pale malt for several hours at 162F. Then roast it to get the desired lovibond!
 
Last edited:
Yes, because it more accurately represents actual Scottish ales. And if you really want to enter your peat-smoked beer in a competition, they've still got you covered:

"Scottish ales with smoke character should be entered as a Classic Style Smoked Beer."


In addition to the possibilities raised above (1: it really tasted good, and 2: judges are not HPLC machines, but humans and subject to palate fatigue in long competitions), I'll add 3: WHEN did it win gold? I have a good memory of both US craft beer and homebrew from the 1980s and early 1990s. Some of what was considered gold medal fodder then would literally be a dumper today. Ingredients improve. Equipment improves. Standards rise. Tastes get more refined.

IMG_1263.jpg
 
Can you pointout anywhere that someone said the gold medal beer was "likely if not indubitably a dumper"? I'm sure it was a pleasant beer to drink - none of us can know for sure - but I can say for certain that 27% crystal is way outside the usual parameters for British-style beers. I suspect part of that is a difference in ingredients - any beer with 27% British crystal would be hard work to drink, but maybe not with US crystal. But that's all part of the difficulty in trying to communicate when words like "crystal" can mean different malts in different parts of the world (and let's not even go there with the trademark disputes over the various "cara-" malts!).

Anyway - gotta go, the pub is calling!

You’re right, I’m the one who said dumper, I was being dramatic. Really I’m not married to the idea that I want to use 27% crystal malt in a beer or that I should keep it to a minimum. I’m mostly trying to provoke a conversation and hopefully find some consistency, so that I can “know” the best way to use crystal malt to make a great beer. It is clear though that even after someone expresses ambiguity about the malt and then uses pejorative language like cloying sweetness, that they are biased against the ingredient.

I have noticed that in many recipes, that people would usually like to put a lot of crystal malt in, they will put a ton of munich in instead so they don’t have to feel bad about using too much crystal. To me Munich has crystal malt characteristics, yet I feel the love when people talk about Munich.
 
You’re right, I’m the one who said dumper, I was being dramatic. Really I’m not married to the idea that I want to use 27% crystal malt in a beer or that I should keep it to a minimum. I’m mostly trying to provoke a conversation and hopefully find some consistency, so that I can “know” the best way to use crystal malt to make a great beer. It is clear though that even after someone expresses ambiguity about the malt and then uses pejorative language like cloying sweetness, that they are biased against the ingredient.

I have noticed that in many recipes, that people would usually like to put a lot of crystal malt in, they will put a ton of munich in instead so they don’t have to feel bad about using too much crystal. To me Munich has crystal malt characteristics, yet I feel the love when people talk about Munich.
I don't agree with your comment in the last paragraph with them being subs. Unless you are thinking of a little bit of dark 9L Munich for crystal 10L.

Crystal malt is mashed specialty grain. The mashing is done, whole kernel, at high moisture content, however not in a liquid. Afterwards its roasted at a set time while wet. The malliard reaction starts to take place during roasting. Then it's cured to 10% moisture content. It tends to be sweet and candy like in the lower lovibonds.

Munich is an unmashed base malt. It's been steeped damp (not in liquid) well below typical mashing temperatures. I believe @122F for a very long protein phase. Then cured at temps higher than pale malt that make it taste more bready and toasted than pale malt. It's also cured to 10% moisture content. It's really not a roasted grain, it has a light characteristic of that. If you took pale malt and roasted it at 350F for twenty minutes it would closely resemble a light Munich.

To me, they're not the same at all. Think of when the sugar is created. Crystal has some converted sugar before kilning in the malting process. Munich as no sugar in the malting process then it's kilned. I will give you a bread analogy. Assume you have a piece of bread. Crystal is like the bread crust, whereas Munich is toasted center part of the bread. The crust and crystal have had a malliard reaction.

I would never think to sub one for the other. They are not that close unless you're talking CaraMunich 60L. Which I believe is a 60L crystal malt made from Munich Base Malt. As I said above you could use a dark Munich for Crystal 10L. It's just not the same to me unless it's color that you're after.
 
I don't agree with your comment in the last paragraph with them being subs. Unless you are thinking of a little bit of dark 9L Munich for crystal 10L.

Crystal malt is mashed specialty grain. The mashing is done, whole kernel, at high moisture content, however not in a liquid. Afterwards its roasted at a set time while wet. The malliard reaction starts to take place during roasting. Then it's cured to 10% moisture content. It tends to be sweet and candy like in the lower lovibonds.

Munich is an unmashed base malt. It's been steeped damp (not in liquid) well below typical mashing temperatures. I believe @122F for a very long protein phase. Then cured at temps higher than pale malt that make it taste more bready and toasted than pale malt. It's also cured to 10% moisture content. It's really not a roasted grain, it has a light characteristic of that. If you took pale malt and roasted it at 350F for twenty minutes it would closely resemble a light Munich.

To me, they're not the same at all. Think of when the sugar is created. Crystal has some converted sugar before kilning in the malting process. Munich as no sugar in the malting process then it's kilned. I will give you a bread analogy. Assume you have a piece of bread. Crystal is like the bread crust, whereas Munich is toasted center part of the bread. The crust and crystal have had a malliard reaction.

I would never think to sub one for the other. They are not that close unless you're talking CaraMunich 60L. Which I believe is a 60L crystal malt made from Munich Base Malt. As I said above you could use a dark Munich for Crystal 10L. It's just not the same to me unless it's color that you're after.

I understand the processes and agree with everything you said as accurate. Thing is Munich is generally 10L or 20L (light/dark). It is recognized as a malt that will 1. Add body/mouthfeel to the beer and 2. Impart some bready, light maillard flavors.

These are the same flavors that we are trying to impart with our less kilned crystal malts. I mean take a traditional Oktoberfest beer. It’s darker than a golden beer because of the Munich. In the case of the Oktoberfest the Munich is the flavoring malt, much like a crystal malt would be in other beers. The only real difference between Munich and crystal malt is the diastatic power, which in most cases is moot due to the base malts used in the recipes.
 
I understand the processes and agree with everything you said as accurate. Thing is Munich is generally 10L or 20L (light/dark). It is recognized as a malt that will 1. Add body/mouthfeel to the beer and 2. Impart some bready, light maillard flavors.

These are the same flavors that we are trying to impart with our less kilned crystal malts. I mean take a traditional Oktoberfest beer. It’s darker than a golden beer because of the Munich. In the case of the Oktoberfest the Munich is the flavoring malt, much like a crystal malt would be in other beers. The only real difference between Munich and crystal malt is the diastatic power, which in most cases is moot due to the base malts used in the recipes.
Have you tried both? To me they both taste really different.
 
I’m mostly trying to provoke a conversation and hopefully find some consistency, so that I can “know” the best way to use crystal malt to make a great beer.

You're demanding an objective answer to a completely subjective question. It's your hobby. The best way is your way. If you like a ton of crystal malt, then use a ton of crystal malt. Why should you care if someone who's never going to taste your beer doesn't like a ton of crystal malt?

On the other hand, if you are primarily going to brew for competition, then you are best advised to follow the current style guidelines as closely as possible. But keep in mind that beer judges are far from perfect, and often inconsistent.
 
The only real difference between Munich and crystal malt is the diastatic power, which in most cases is moot due to the base malts used in the recipes.

Have you tried both? To me they both taste really different.

Yeah I was going to ask this same question. Grab a half teaspoon of 10L and just chew on it. Wash it down with whatever beer you're drinking then grab some dark Munich. I think you'll change your mind.

I will reiterate whats already been said. If you make a good beer with more crystal malt than whats been suggested as a guideline. Who cares? I don't, if it tastes good.

You mentioned peer pressure once or twice in this thread. I don't get that. The internet is not going to stop me from doing what I feel like doing. Unless you're talking with friends outside this thread.

FWIW - I made this recipe when I first started brewing. The all grain recipe has 15.2% 40L and 6.5% carapils. Its a pretty damn good beer if must say. Ironically it has both Munich dark and crystal in it, and its a fairly simple beer to make.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/house-amber-ag-extract.55427/
 
Last edited:
Yeah I was going to ask this same question. Grab a half teaspoon of 10L and just chew on it. Wash it down with whatever beer you're drinking then grab some dark Munich. I think you'll change your mind.

I will reiterate whats already been said. If you make a good beer with more crystal malt than whats been suggested as a guideline. Who cares? I don't, if it tastes good.

You mentioned peer pressure once or twice in this thread. I don't get that. The internet is not going to stop me from doing what I feel like doing. Unless you're talking with friends outside this thread.

FWIW - I made this recipe when I first started brewing. The all grain recipe has 15.2% 40L and 6.5% carapils. Its a pretty damn good beer if must say. Ironically it has both Munich dark and crystal in it, and its a fairly simple beer to make.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/house-amber-ag-extract.55427/

When trying to find truth about things that are completely subjective, the only way to do it is to get together with a small group of people who know a lot about the subject and have a meeting of minds. Peer pressure works without people realizing it. We all change our behaviors based on what our experiences are in media, with friends and family. If you didn’t want to in some way be changed by the information you get at HBT, you wouldn’t read the posts here.

Certainly, unmashed Munich and crystal will taste different because crystal is in essence mashed inside the grain while Munich still retains its starches. I have used both crystal and Munich in my beers and they are different, but so are crystal malts different from each other. In my opinion the flavor and mouthfeel of Munich in the finished beer is more like crystal than it is like base malt.

You are right, one of my favorite things about brewing is I can do whatever I want. I have beers in the fridge right now that are all DME, no other grains, fermented with 1728, Nelson Sauvin only. It’s really good beer. But just because I’ve found Nirvana doesn’t mean I’m going to stop searching for a greater Nirvana.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top