Crystal as Base malt?

[eon]

Has anybody tried this or know what the outcome would be?

In beer calculus It seems like it would work (in theory).


8 lbs. crystal 40L

1 oz. columbus @ 60 minutes
.5 oz. simcoe @ 60 minutes
.5 oz. amarillo @ 15 minutes
.5 oz. simcoe @ 15 minutes
.5 oz. amarillo @ 5 minutes
.5 oz. simcoe @ 5 minutes
1 oz. amarillo @ flame out
1 oz. simcoe @ flameout
2 oz. amarillo DRY HOP
1 oz. citra DRY HOP

I just threw this recipe together to see some numbers. According to Beer Calculus it would be close to 80 IBUs and hoppy.

What do you think would happen if only crystal was used?

 

[gestyr]

It would be very sweet. Crystal has a lot of unfermentables.

 

[brokenanchor]

You would have a very very sweet beer. Crystal malts are nonfermentables, and do not have enough diastatic power to convert. If you really want to try it though have at it, and let us know what you get.

 

[eon]

I figured it would be SWEET, but do you think you could put X amount of hops in to balance it out? Is that possible or would is it destined to be cloyingly sweet?

 

[elkdog]

Even the most caramel- flavored beers max out at 15-20% crystal. From the wiki:

While crystal malts in small amounts will give a sweet malt character to the finished beer, in excess it can create a cloying or artificial character.

A 100% crystal beer would not be pleasant.

 

[indigi]

As far as I know, none of the brewing software or calculators can accurately estimate the amount of unfermentables added by specialty malts of any kind, so they just ignore the differences. Even if you made a brew with 100% maltodextrin it'd work out in a calculator. Crystal malts have, if any, only a very very small amount of fermentable sugars in them. Your FG would be probably 4-5 points lower than your OG unless you added enzymes to the mash.

 

[Edcculus]

I've never done a beer with a high Crystal percentage. You need at least a pound or two of a Pale 2 row, 6 row or a wheat malt. Crystal malts don't have much if any diastatic power (no enzymes to convert starches to sugars) because of the way they are kilned. You might have to mash a little longer to make sure you get good conversion.

It would still be a very sweet beer. Depending on what you are going for, I guess it could work. It might be a good excercise to try on a smaller scale. At the very least, you will get a VERY good idea of what C40 contributes to a final beer.

 

[eon]

Thanks everyone! Looks like it probably won't work. I was just curious.

 

[brokenanchor]

After a quick search, nilo is actually doing an experiment along the same lines.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/testing-fermentability-crystal-malt-208361/

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

Crystal malts don't have much if any diastatic power (no enzymes to convert starches to sugars) because of the way they are kilned. You might have to mash a little longer to make sure you get good conversion.

Crystal malts dont convert in the mash...they are called crystal or caramel malts because the maltster has already converted the starch to sugar, then crystalized/caramelized that sugar in the kilning process. When you add them to your recipe all you are doing is washing the already caramelized sugars off the grains and into your mash/wort. You could leave them totally out of the mash and just steep them in the warm wort and get the same effect.

A beer with all crystal malt base would not ferment (or would ferment very, very little). The kilning process converts the sugars to long-chain, non-fermentable sugars.

If you try it, let us know...I have a feeling it'd taste like hopped kool-aid.

 

[ChrisKennedy]

Crystal malt is definitely fermentable.

I don't think a 100% crystal beer would be good, but that isn't because it wouldn't attenuate. I bet you would see fairly normal attenuation (in the 60-75% range). I just don't think it would taste good. Too intense a malt character I would guess.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

Crystal malt is definitely fermentable.

I don't think a 100% crystal beer would be good, but that isn't because it wouldn't attenuate. I bet you would see fairly normal attenuation (in the 60-75% range). I just don't think it would taste good. Too intense a malt character I would guess.

The reason it adds sweetness is because the sugars are non-fermentable. The sugars are not 100% non-fermentable, but it is the primary function of the type of malt. From the Briess data sheet on Crystal 10L:

"• In contract to Brewers Malt, glassiness is a distinguishing characteristic of Caramel Malt. The glassy endosperm creates the desirable non-fermentable components giving true Caramel Malt the ability to contribute body (mouthfeel), foam foam retention, and extended beer stability, while contributing color and unique caramel flavor."

 

[Pappers_]

Do it! Do it! Do it!

the Agent Provocateur Formerly Named Pappers

 

[eon]

I might actually try this but on a very small scale. Perhaps a 1 or 2.5 gallon batch.

 

[JonK331]

Has anybody tried this or know what the outcome would be?

In beer calculus It seems like it would work (in theory).


8 lbs. crystal 40L

1 oz. columbus @ 60 minutes
.5 oz. simcoe @ 60 minutes
.5 oz. amarillo @ 15 minutes
.5 oz. simcoe @ 15 minutes
.5 oz. amarillo @ 5 minutes
.5 oz. simcoe @ 5 minutes
1 oz. amarillo @ flame out
1 oz. simcoe @ flameout
2 oz. amarillo DRY HOP
1 oz. citra DRY HOP

I just threw this recipe together to see some numbers. According to Beer Calculus it would be close to 80 IBUs and hoppy.

What do you think would happen if only crystal was used?

It would not be beer because there would not be any fermentable sugars and as a result no alcohol.

 

[eon]

Thanks JonK! I will NOT be trying this now! hahaha!

 

[brokenanchor]

No seriously...look at the link I posted. Nilo proved that there is some fermentability, but not as much as would be if you added a bit of base malt with a higher diastatic power. It's definitely worth reading...plus there are plenty of pretty graphs and pictures to get distracted by.

 

[Edcculus]

Strat - just playing devil's advocate here. If you added some base malt, which has enzymes, those longer chained dextrins should get converted further to simpler sugars in a mash. If alpha/beta amalayse can break down full starches, they can surely get at some of the dextrins in crystal malts. Not too sure about the darker crystals, since they darker it gets, the more actual caramelization takes place.

I think the biggest problem would be efficeincy, even when using some base malt.

 

[skibb]

Why not ferment the beer with something like brett? I'm pretty sure it will eat up most any kind of sugar

 

[indigi]

100% Brett ferments contribute a lot of fruitiness as well as some funk/leather/farmhouse/sourish notes as well, so if you're trying to get a taste for the malt it's a bad idea.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

Strat - just playing devil's advocate here. If you added some base malt, which has enzymes, those longer chained dextrins should get converted further to simpler sugars in a mash. If alpha/beta amalayse can break down full starches, they can surely get at some of the dextrins in crystal malts. Not too sure about the darker crystals, since they darker it gets, the more actual caramelization takes place.

I think the biggest problem would be efficeincy, even when using some base malt.

If that were true, then how would adding crystal malt to a normal beer enhance the body and add non-fermentables? It wouldnt if the sugars in the crystal malt were broken down into fermentables. The beer would come out bone dry, and we know that doesnt happen when you use a bunch of crystal malt.

The sugars in the crystal malt dont break down in the mash, that is why they contribute those characteristics to the wort.

In the malt house, the grain goes through saccharification (mashing) and then is kilned. The sugars that are created in the mash caramelize in the kiln, crystalize, and change into different sugars than the type that the amylase enzymes can break down. This is why crystal malt contributes the unique sweetness and body that it does. Even in the lighter crystals, the kilning changes the sugars.

 

[JuanMoore]

If that were true, then how would adding crystal malt to a normal beer enhance the body and add non-fermentables? It wouldnt if the sugars in the crystal malt were broken down into fermentables. The beer would come out bone dry, and we know that doesnt happen when you use a bunch of crystal malt.

The sugars in the crystal malt dont break down in the mash, that is why they contribute those characteristics to the wort.

You can't think of it in such black and white terms. Some of the sugars in crystal malt do break down in the mash. It's just a much lower percentage than in base malts. All malts, whether base or specialty, contribute both fermentable and non-fermentable sugars, just in much different ratios. The ratio of fermentable sugars to non-fermentable sugars extracted from any malt can be manipulated to some extent.