Crystal 60 in hoppy beers

[Bobby_M]

Your SMASH sounds tasty. What yeast did you use?

It was 6% ABV and fermented with Chico WLP-001, Wyeast 1056 or Omega West Coast 1.

 

[NoCornOrRice]

+1 on the Vienna. I use it in almost all my beers.

 

[jcfontario]

There are many other ways of bringing malt complexity to a pale ale that does not involve crystal malts including Vienna, Munich, Victory/Biscuit and blending American and British pale malts. You can control the body via mash temp to make your own dextrines. I'm partial to a good portion of Vienna because it adds a candy like character without being overly sweet and that plays quite well with hops. I've actually done a SMASH pale ale with 100% Vienna and Mosaic hops and that was one of my best pale ales.

That Vienna-Mosaic SMASH Pale ale sounds yummy, Bobby M. What was your mash temperature and hops addition profile? I haven't had a good Vienna since I was last in Austria.

 

[Bobby_M]

That Vienna-Mosaic SMASH Pale ale sounds yummy, Bobby M. What was your mash temperature and hops addition profile? I haven't had a good Vienna since I was last in Austria.

152F

 

[OleBrewing]

There are many other ways of bringing malt complexity to a pale ale that does not involve crystal malts including Vienna, Munich, Victory/Biscuit and blending American and British pale malts. You can control the body via mash temp to make your own dextrines. I'm partial to a good portion of Vienna because it adds a candy like character without being overly sweet and that plays quite well with hops. I've actually done a SMASH pale ale with 100% Vienna and Mosaic hops and that was one of my best pale ales.

Well very true. I was typically speaking of American. A rich Munich or straight maris otter would be excellent choices.

 

[Bobby_M]

Well very true. I was typically speaking of American. A rich Munich or straight maris otter would be excellent choices.

I actually mean that there is more flexibility in malt selection in beer styles than many people suspect. American Pale Ale is primarily driven by laying American (not noble) hop bitterness, flavor and aromas on top of a neutral malt base fermented with some kind of ale yeast. There are of course limits to how far you can stray but malt is probably the most flexible in that particular style. Bottom line, you can make an APA that passes as "in style" to an experienced judge with or without caramel malts. I'm not talking about some session version of a NEIPA that some craft breweries are calling pale ale either.

 

[OleBrewing]

I actually mean that there is more flexibility in malt selection in beer styles than many people suspect. American Pale Ale is primarily driven by laying American (not noble) hop bitterness, flavor and aromas on top of a neutral malt base fermented with some kind of ale yeast. There are of course limits to how far you can stray but malt is probably the most flexible in that particular style. Bottom line, you can make an APA that passes as "in style" to an experienced judge with or without caramel malts. I'm not talking about some session version of a NEIPA that some craft breweries are calling pale ale either.

Very true. I kinda posted a rant about the invasive light grain hopped "pale ales". Give me a summit epa any day for a standard. Of course the original post about crystal malt is ludicrous in high hopped ales.

 

[twistedcopper]

Vinnie from Russian River discussing (at 8 minutes) how they started swapping out Crystal for Munich due to oxidation issues:

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Vinnie from Russian River discussing (at 8 minutes)

A similar video apparently from the same video channel was mentioned earlier as part of a related thread here at HomeBrewTalk

I also heard mention of it in an interview with Vinny Cilurzo from Russian River. I started a thread about it in the Brew Science forum recently; if you’re interested in the Cilurzo interview, there‘s a link to it in the linked thread below. I think I saw the same Craft Beer and Brewing article you referenced, as well. Not a lot of details to be found, it seems.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/crystal-malt-and-oxidation.699464/

Was there anything in the video that offered a possible answer to the original question?

My question is then, how is it that Sierra Nevada’s beers like Pale and Torpedo still taste so damn good even at 3+ months old?

edits for better formatting.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This, from an article at Craft Beer and Brewing ("Paint the Town Brown - link" - Jun 26, 2021) on brown ales (including Janet's Brown Ale),

Cilurzo’s preferred approach to a brown ale layers in malt flavors from a blend of crystal and chocolate, to push from sweet caramel to slightly bitter toffee and finally to a dry chocolate with a firm bitterness. He combines midrange crystal malts (such as 40L) and chocolate malt to get that effect. If you’re worried about the complexity you’d get from just the two malts, you could always combine several crystal malts to boost complexity. Cilurzo makes a point to differentiate between crystal (drum roasted) and caramel (kilned at higher temperature) because he senses higher roast notes in the crystal, which he prefers for a brown ale.

may suggest that crystal/caramel malts are appropriate for many styles of beer.

This article doesn't directly answer OPs question, but (as I mentioned earlier) if oxidation is a factor, there may be some mitigation techniques in The New IPA (or in other resources). Or hop processing and packaging (or lack there of) may be a factor. Or roasting vs kilning may be a factor. Packaging is certainly a consideration.

 

[BeerAndTele]

Was there anything in the video that offered a possible answer to the original question?

No, I’m afraid not. I was hoping for a follow up question on that topic, but there wasn’t one.

If you assume that crystal malts do indeed aid in oxidation, then that could lead to a discussion about what Sierra Nevada does to mitigate oxidation, which was discussed in one of the threads on the LODO forum not long ago. The clip below is of brewmaster Scott Jennings from Sierra's Falls River, NC brewery. There's a question asked at the 1:04 mark, which I've linked below. The question was in the context of brewing light/helles lagers, but I'm thinking the answer still applies regardless.

The question of the extent to which this matters on the homebrew scale is what gets the LODO forum juiced up, so take from it what you will. Cheers.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There's a question asked at the 1:04 mark, which I've linked below. The question was in the context of brewing light/helles lagers, but I'm thinking the answer still applies regardless.

Thanks. I listened from about 1:04 to 1:09. Certainly something to consider.

As an aside (to the video reference) and FWIW, at the home brew level, detailed techniques for reduced oxygen brewing can be found in recent threads both here and in other forums. In those forums where people publish recipes, they have been including some of the techniques (and the detailed information) for a couple of years. Could it be that "LODO" is becoming a (missing) footnote in the evolving home brewing process?

 

[Beholder]

I use crystal in my house IPA, but my goal with that one is a balanced beer with the malt in subtle harmony with the hops. The west coast style of IPA (and NE for that matter) certainly goes for different goals, where the balance could be perceived as muting the hops, but oxidation is bollocks IMO.

 

[Pehlman17]

This, from an article at Craft Beer and Brewing ("Paint the Town Brown - link" - Jun 26, 2021) on brown ales (including Janet's Brown Ale),

may suggest that crystal/caramel malts are appropriate for many styles of beer.

This article doesn't directly answer OPs question, but (as I mentioned earlier) if oxidation is a factor, there may be some mitigation techniques in The New IPA (or in other resources). Or hop processing and packaging (or lack there of) may be a factor. Or roasting vs kilning may be a factor. Packaging is certainly a consideration.

It’s very interesting how he differentiates between the drum roasting of Crystal (U.S. I assume), and the kilning of Caramel (U.K. I assume). In the video interview posted earlier, he seems to specifically say that it’s the drum roasting of Crystal malts that he believes contributes to the oxidative quality. This makes me wondering if there would be a difference just between using US Crystal vs. UK Caramel malts in terms of the oxidative impact potential.

 

[Beenym88]

It really all comes down to taste IPAs can be good with just base malts but also good with other malts I’ve done it both ways. I really prefer a little malt character my favorite is a 2% addition of honey malt it just adds a little something.

 

[Pehlman17]

It’s very interesting how he differentiates between the drum roasting of Crystal (U.S. I assume), and the kilning of Caramel (U.K. I assume). In the video interview posted earlier, he seems to specifically say that it’s the drum roasting of Crystal malts that he believes contributes to the oxidative quality. This makes me wondering if there would be a difference just between using US Crystal vs. UK Caramel malts in terms of the oxidative impact potential.

Oops, I think I got those backward.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Perhaps also worth noting: Janet's Brown Ale is a Brown IPA. So crystal/caramel appears to be appropriate as long as it doesn't clash with yeast flavors (or hop flavors).

As for oxidative impact, I'm not aware of an inexpensive way to directly to measure it. Original articles / videos can offer insights.

At the "home brew level", there are a number of techniques for reduced oxygen brewing and bottling. People have reported bottling hoppy beers that were good for 75+ days. I would assume those same techniques would be helpful when bottling recipes similar to SNPA, Torpedo, and/or Celebration. My 12 pack batches are consumed fresh (within a month), so I don't have much personal experience with bottling in the 45 - 90 day range.

Crystal 60 in hoppy beers? Yes (where it's style appropriate).

 

[passedpawn]

There are many other ways of bringing malt complexity to a pale ale that does not involve crystal malts including Vienna, Munich, Victory/Biscuit and blending American and British pale malts. You can control the body via mash temp to make your own dextrines. I'm partial to a good portion of Vienna because it adds a candy like character without being overly sweet and that plays quite well with hops. I've actually done a SMASH pale ale with 100% Vienna and Mosaic hops and that was one of my best pale ales.

I've keep this pale ale on tap all the time. It's pretty much what you were just suggesting.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For those who wish to evade OPs original question ...

I don’t know how they seem to defy everything people say nowadays about C60 with hops.

... there are some solid recipe ideas here.

 

[faithie999]

Bobby_M: thanks for the suggestion to make a Vienna/Mosaic SMASH. I made it last month. I kegged after about 3 weeks in primary and force carbed it on 30 psi CO2 for about a week. it's great!

I followed the hop profile suggestion you made in post 34.

it will definitely be in my rotation!

ken