Crushed false bottom

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Correct, but I don't think anyone has measured the suction of the march pump applied to the false bottom. I'd bet it's nowhere near 10psi.

It's a closed system, and the fluid pressure is equal throughout. Whatever the pressure is at the pump, it's the same at the false bottom.

The 1/2 ton of force number came from multiplying the 10psi by the area of the false bottom. I don't believe the march pump is pulling anywhere near 10psi against a false bottom in a pot. At least any pot bigger than 1 inch in diameter.

The fluid pressure remains constant thoughout the system regardless of the size, shape, or diameter of the various parts in the system.

Also, have any of your actually had a stuck sparge with a march pump in a home brew setting? All of the blackboard talk is nice, but it's not actually what happens.

As I stated in my original post, I have witnessed it firsthand on someone elses system, and they were using my LG pump (which is slightly more powerful than a march 809).

When the grainbed compacts, and the sparge sticks, your tubing to the pump doesn't stay full of fluid. The sparge sticks, the pump sucks air, and the pump loses suction and you get cavitation. The pump doesn't continually pull suction against the compacted grain bed until the outlet stops.

If this has been your experience, then you have a leak somewhere letting air in. This might be a good thing since it would prevent the issue the OP has. When I get a stuck sparge the pump does not lose suction, the hoses stay full of wort, and the pump does not fill with air and cavitate.
 
... When I get a stuck sparge the pump does not lose suction, the hoses stay full of wort, and the pump does not fill with air and cavitate.

Wouldn't the hose just collapse? The same external air pressure that collapses the FB is at work on the much more flexible hose.
 
Wouldn't the hose just collapse? The same external air pressure that collapses the FB is at work on the much more flexible hose.

no...again, it's surface area.

the false bottom has a 100+ sqaure inches, the hose less than one....it's also distributed far differently.

so while the the false bottom could have hundreds of pounds of force on it, the hose would only have a couple of pounds.
 
no...again, it's surface area.

the false bottom has a 100+ sqaure inches, the hose less than one....it's also distributed far differently.

so while the the false bottom could have hundreds of pounds of force on it, the hose would only have a couple of pounds.

What kind of pump are we talking here? The 10 psi of suction head mentioned earlier is clearly an exaggeration and in the realm of vacuum pumps. It's simply out of the question for centrifugal pumps.

We can also rule out cavitation. Lautering water at 170^F boils at 8.7 psi of vacuum. That's 20 feet of suction head at the pump inlet, also out of the realm of possibility for centrifugal pumps.

So what's left? It's easy enough to measure the suction head for your pump. Set a kettle filled with water so the starting water level is a few inches above the pump inlet, and the drain leading to the pump is below the pump inlet. This should be enough to prime the pump and get a good stream coming from the pump. Start the pump. When it stops pumping, close the drain valve to prevent back flow, and stop the pump. Measure the height of the water level above or below the pump inlet.

Measured in inches, this is the inches of water column of pump inlet suction head, less losses in the line and fittings. 27" of water column is equal to 1 psi. Calculate the psi, and apply this over the area of your FB. The resulting force in pounds is the maximum you can attribute to pump suction.

Write back and let us know what you measure. We'll all have learned something then. (I'm expecting a range from slightly above, due to line losses, to a couple of inches at most below. I'm willing to be surprised, however, since I haven't done this experiment. No pumps in this brewery, so I'll wait to hear your results.)
 
Good point, everyone wants to argue till their blue in the face about the earth being flat and pumps pulling thousands of pounds but we are talking about many different pumps as well as well many variables. Each pump is a different animal and will react different on various setups. Mag drives for instance need the liquid reservoir above the pump to function properly. where things are located have a factor in performance. the same pump on one system won't pull the same on another setup.

The real question isn't how much a pump can pull but why would you want to pull that much pressure in the first place? how would that ever be beneficial to the brew?...or the equipment in this case.
 
image-2491443099.png
 
It's easy enough to measure the suction head for your pump. Set a kettle filled with water so the starting water level is a few inches above the pump inlet, and the drain leading to the pump is below the pump inlet. This should be enough to prime the pump and get a good stream coming from the pump. Start the pump. When it stops pumping, close the drain valve to prevent back flow, and stop the pump. Measure the height of the water level above or below the pump inlet.

Measured in inches, this is the inches of water column of pump inlet suction head, less losses in the line and fittings. 27" of water column is equal to 1 psi. Calculate the psi, and apply this over the area of your FB. The resulting force in pounds is the maximum you can attribute to pump suction.

Write back and let us know what you measure. We'll all have learned something then. (I'm expecting a range from slightly above, due to line losses, to a couple of inches at most below. I'm willing to be surprised, however, since I haven't done this experiment. No pumps in this brewery, so I'll wait to hear your results.)

Bump.

I would dearly love to know how much suction head a March 809 and other pumps can pull, more for general knowledge than to settle the false bottom question.

Here's a link to an article about pumps and net suction pressure head. Of particular interest is Figures 2 and 3.
http://www.warrenpumps.com/resources/npsh.pdf

Here's the March 809 manual with rudimentary pump curves: http://www.marchpump.com/site/files/966/112170/382390/523930/Pump_Manual.pdf

For what it's worth, it seems to me improbable that the tiny motors and magnet drive to pull significant suction pressure of the magnitudes we talked about. But, again, I'm willing to be surprised by actual measurements.
 
What kind of pump are we talking here? The 10 psi of suction head mentioned earlier is clearly an exaggeration and in the realm of vacuum pumps. It's simply out of the question for centrifugal pumps.

I think the 10 psi mentioned was a rough guess by Cat22. He later said that he thought his LG pump actually produced just under 7psi, which IMO is probably pretty accurate.

We can also rule out cavitation. Lautering water at 170^F boils at 8.7 psi of vacuum. That's 20 feet of suction head at the pump inlet, also out of the realm of possibility for centrifugal pumps.

So what's left? It's easy enough to measure the suction head for your pump. Set a kettle filled with water so the starting water level is a few inches above the pump inlet, and the drain leading to the pump is below the pump inlet. This should be enough to prime the pump and get a good stream coming from the pump. Start the pump. When it stops pumping, close the drain valve to prevent back flow, and stop the pump. Measure the height of the water level above or below the pump inlet.

Measured in inches, this is the inches of water column of pump inlet suction head, less losses in the line and fittings. 27" of water column is equal to 1 psi. Calculate the psi, and apply this over the area of your FB. The resulting force in pounds is the maximum you can attribute to pump suction.

Write back and let us know what you measure. We'll all have learned something then. (I'm expecting a range from slightly above, due to line losses, to a couple of inches at most below. I'm willing to be surprised, however, since I haven't done this experiment. No pumps in this brewery, so I'll wait to hear your results.)

My fluid dynamics knowledge is rudimentary at best, so I’m probably the wrong person to explain this, but here goes anyway.

As Catt22 already mentioned, the vacuum a pump pulls is going to be approximately equal to the output pressure, which is easily found by looking at the pumps max head. The vacuum head pressure has to equal the output head pressure in order for the pump to move any fluid. Think of it this way, if a pump were only able to create a few inches WC of vacuum, then how would it feed itself enough to create several feet of head pressure on the output side? Depending on the model, march 809hs pumps have between 12.1' and 15.5' max head, which converted from WC equals 5.2-6.7psi. My LG pump has a max head of 18', or 7.8psi. These figures are calculated in an ideal setting, so real world figures will most likely be less, but not by much.

Since I’m guessing this explanation won’t be satisfactory for many people, I set up a test similar to what you suggested. Since I knew the pump would pull significantly more than the few inches you estimated, I filled a keggle with water and set it on the ground, set a ladder next to it, cobbled two transfer hoses together, and connected them to the drain and a pump. I then primed the pump on the ground, and climbed the ladder with the pump in hand. The flow of water exiting the pump only decreased slightly even when I raised it as far as the hoses would allow, which was about 9’ (two 5' hoses with 6" slack on either end to prevent kinking). I set the pump on top of the ladder to get a pic, and without me holding it the weight of the hoses and fittings caused a kink in the hose at the pump inlet, slowing the flow considerably. Even with a kink in the hose, a stream of water exiting the pump is still clearly visible. The suction is obviously more than the 9’ I was able to test, since I was able to drain the keggle completely at this height. In order to test the maximum vacuum head of my pump I’d need longer transfer hoses and a taller ladder. I don't really feel inclined to test any further though, since I already know the result would be close to 18'.

pump005.jpg


The real question isn't how much a pump can pull but why would you want to pull that much pressure in the first place? how would that ever be beneficial to the brew?...or the equipment in this case.

I don't think anyone is saying that they are trying to create a lot of pressure intentionally, we're saying that these pressures can easily happen in a brewing scenario. In the case of the OP it's happening quite unintentionally, and much to his dismay since it's damaging his false bottoms.

Here's the March 809 manual with rudimentary pump curves: http://www.marchpump.com/site/files/966/112170/382390/523930/Pump_Manual.pdf

For what it's worth, it seems to me improbable that the tiny motors and magnet drive to pull significant suction pressure of the magnitudes we talked about. But, again, I'm willing to be surprised by actual measurements.

That manual and set of curves is for a very weak pump that I've never seen used for brewing. It only produces 4.3' of max head, which IMO is way underpowered for brewing applications. The march 809 hs commonly used for brewing produces nearly three times as much head pressure.
 

That sucks, but hopefully you can salvage those and put them back in service. If you bend the feet roughly back into shape they won't be as strong, but they should still work fine as long as you can prevent them from clogging. Are you trying to recirculate at full speed? If so, slow it down some, a little more than a trickle is really all you need during the mash. Starting the flow very slow and then increasing until it reaches the desired rate can also help prevent clogs. When using high percentages of huskless or high protien grains (rye, oats, wheat, etc), a few handfulls of rice hulls in the mash can help keep things flowing well also. At what point in the process is the FB getting clogged and collapsing?
 
And Juan comes in off the top rope...well actually the ladder.

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to set up a great demonstration. Sometimes seeing is the only way to believe.
 
Thanks, Juan. For sure, seeing is believing.

The 4' head on the non-HS series pumps is barely enough to push the bottom of one keggle to the top of the next.
 
My fluid dynamics knowledge is rudimentary at best, so I’m probably the wrong person to explain this, but here goes anyway.

As Catt22 already mentioned, the vacuum a pump pulls is going to be approximately equal to the output pressure, which is easily found by looking at the pumps max head. The vacuum head pressure has to equal the output head pressure in order for the pump to move any fluid.

If it helps understanding, centrifugal pumps are described as constant head machines. Within some limits, the pump could be at the top, middle, or bottom of that 18'. Placed at the top, all the head is suction. One of the limits was described in the linked document as negative suction pressure head. At extremes, it distorts the pump's characteristic curve. It's hard to say, but it's possible you were edging into that region when you noted a visible drop off in volume at your extreme reach. March doesn't document NSPHR for the pumps I looked at.
 
So in summary we have concluded that the basic principles of physics still apply, the earth is round, and a pump can suck a clogged false bottom toward the bottom of a kettle. However, I'm still not buying that tennis ball being sucked through a garden hose that Bill Clinton claimed to be true...:mug:
 
I would dearly love to know how much suction head a March 809 and other pumps can pull, more for general knowledge than to settle the false bottom question.

I ran a straight forward simple test yesterday using the vacuum gauge and the Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC pump. The pump inlet/outlet and the kettle outlet were at very near the same level. ie, near zero head on both the input and output. With the pump fully primed and pumping I closed the kettle valve. The vacuum gauge immediately climbed to 15 inches Hg (mercury) and held there. This converts to about 7.4 psi. The 7.4 psi applied to surface area of 160 sq inches (cross sectional area of a 14.5" diameter kettle) calcs out to about 1,180 lbs total force.

I was mistaken about the 10 psi I mentioned in an earlier post. I was remembering that the gauge had topped 10 when I once had a stuck mash, but I had forgotten that the vacuum gauge reads in inches of mercury, not psi. It's about a 2:1 ratio. 1 inch hg = 0.491 psi.

I'm not up for climbing a 20 ft ladder to run the test with tubing. The vacuum gauge is plenty good enough for the girls I go out with.

http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/995778.pdf (includes the pump performance curve if you care to check it)
 

That pic is not very clear. Did the FB look like the one in this catalog cut:

http://www.williamsbrewing.com/42-QUART-STAINLESS-FALSE-BOTTOM-P456C50.aspx

I'm thinking you may not have a genuine Polarware FB. Might be a knock off version. I'm guessing based on you pic, but yours looks slightly different than the one I have. If it's not the real McCoy, it might not be as strong. A better pic would help. A shot of the top with the handle might help identify it better. As I said, I'm guessing on this.
 
Looking at that false bottom, I suspect you'll continue to have problems using a pump with it, esp seeing the failure mode. I don't think it takes a lot of force for those feet to bend then give way.

The good news is the perforated plate doesn't appear to have deformed at all...my suggestion would be if you want to salvage it for use with a pump is to replace the foot supports. I'd suggest getting some copper or CPVC pipe fittings that have a diameter tall enough to provide sufficient clearance underneath...basically make some feet from them.

that should solve your problem.
 
If it helps understanding, centrifugal pumps are described as constant head machines. Within some limits, the pump could be at the top, middle, or bottom of that 18'. Placed at the top, all the head is suction. One of the limits was described in the linked document as negative suction pressure head. At extremes, it distorts the pump's characteristic curve. It's hard to say, but it's possible you were edging into that region when you noted a visible drop off in volume at your extreme reach. March doesn't document NSPHR for the pumps I looked at.

Thanks, and I do understand that, but was having trouble explaining it while half drunk last night. Your explanation is quite good, which makes me wonder why you kept doubting that brewing pumps could create more than a few inches of suction head. FWIW I don't think I was anywhere near the distortion point. The flow was only decreasing slightly, and was perfectly in line with the decrease in flow rate expected when looking at the standard head pressure flow curve. According to the curve I should have been getting ~750 GPH at zero head pressure (on the ground) and decreasing to ~600 GPH when it was 9' high.

And I could have sworn that my pump was only spec'd for 18' of head, but when I looked up the pump curve it's actually quite a bit more. Here's the specs and basic curve if you're interested- http://www.plumbersurplus.com/pdf/995756.pdf
 
Looking at the false bottom supports, there is a lot of unsupported area, using SS 8/32 machine screws and double nutting them would be a quick fix. With a spacing of 2-3" center to center the false bottom would be able to withstand more pressure differential. In past observations of flow rates and pressure drop, when you go over 1 GPM flow through the mash bed you begin to dewater it and the pressure drop can rise very fast as the water is extracted and the grain bed compacts. With high protein mashes without a protien rest, a lower flow rate will sometimes cause a dewater event as the proteins seal the top surface and flow through the mash is cut.
 
Looking at the false bottom supports, there is a lot of unsupported area, using SS 8/32 machine screws and double nutting them would be a quick fix. With a spacing of 2-3" center to center the false bottom would be able to withstand more pressure differential. In past observations of flow rates and pressure drop, when you go over 1 GPM flow through the mash bed you begin to dewater it and the pressure drop can rise very fast as the water is extracted and the grain bed compacts. With high protein mashes without a protien rest, a lower flow rate will sometimes cause a dewater event as the proteins seal the top surface and flow through the mash is cut.

Great points all the way around. I hadn't considered a dewater event being caused by low flow and a sticky mash.
 
Good news. Just contacted northern brewer, and they are going to replace my FB's. I have only had them for a little over a month, but I am still worried it will happen again.
 
kladue said:
Looking at the false bottom supports, there is a lot of unsupported area, using SS 8/32 machine screws and double nutting them would be a quick fix. With a spacing of 2-3" center to center the false bottom would be able to withstand more pressure differential. In past observations of flow rates and pressure drop, when you go over 1 GPM flow through the mash bed you begin to dewater it and the pressure drop can rise very fast as the water is extracted and the grain bed compacts. With high protein mashes without a protien rest, a lower flow rate will sometimes cause a dewater event as the proteins seal the top surface and flow through the mash is cut.

Will I need to do a protein rest to alleviate this problem? When I recirculate, the slowing down of my wort comes pretty quick.
 
I ran a straight forward simple test yesterday using the vacuum gauge and the Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC pump. The pump inlet/outlet and the kettle outlet were at very near the same level. ie, near zero head on both the input and output.

I offer this to clarify, not to negate or dispute. Head is measured from the liquid level, not the kettle outlet. It would be under positive pressure with the kettle liquid level above the pump inlet. Also, total head is measured from liquid level to liquid level, assuming the discharge is submerged.

And I could have sworn that my pump was only spec'd for 18' of head, but when I looked up the pump curve it's actually quite a bit more. Here's the specs and basic curve if you're interested- http://www.plumbersurplus.com/pdf/995756.pdf

I'm now seriously considering a non-HS March pump, assuming the cost should be far lower if I ever find one (and definitely not out of fear of hydraulic stress :D). I brew 3 gal batches in my kitchen. The little pump has more than enough flow at 2 ft of head.
 
Past experience making WeizenBocks and Weizens with 60% wheat has shown that a 10 minute, 125 degree protein rest has prevented stuck mashes without sacrificing head retention or body. For most folks I would recommend a boiling water infusion as the non direct fired HERMS and RIMS systems will be too slow to step from 125 to 150 degrees, as heat input is usually too small.
I have an advanced brewing and control system with instrumentation to monitor the flow rate, FB pressure drop, and control FB pressure drop by regulating flow. The manual and automated brewing systems use direct injection of steam into flowing wort for step mashing, and the step times are short enough to work with 25 degree steps, and the steam generator is not a pressure cooker which is too under powered.
 

Hmmm...it looks to be the genuine Polarware FB. Where did you buy it? As I mentioned previously, I have abused mine to the extreme with more than a few seriously stuck mashes and it shows no sign of deformation or the feet collapsing. Maybe they have changed the design or something, but it sure looks to be identical to the one I have been using for about 10 years.
 
I offer this to clarify, not to negate or dispute. Head is measured from the liquid level, not the kettle outlet. It would be under positive pressure with the kettle liquid level above the pump inlet. Also, total head is measured from liquid level to liquid level, assuming the discharge is submerged.

...and your point is what?
 
LOVED reading all of this thread just now. Learned quite a bit in many areas more then I was looking for too =) Not sure I got it all on the first time through, but I know where to come to for a reread when needed.
 
I know this thread is a little old, but yesterday I did an accidental experiment that I think clearly demonstrates the pressures at the bottom of a mash tun. A pic of my system is attached which uses 15gal kegs. I was using a plain jane stainless steel false bottom with no support underneath. I was doing two 10 gal batches. The first had about 20lbs of grain and I noticed when I cleaned it out for round 2 the FB had flattened so I got the bright idea to place a 1/2 copper coupling below the bottom for support. Never really thought about there being that much pressure. When I cleaned out the mash tun I found the FB had flattened and the copper coupling had punch a hole thru the steel FB. I attached pics of the top and bottom of the false bottom. I would think there must be considerable pressure to do that.

False botom (top view).jpg


False bottom (bottom view).jpg


IMG_0006.jpg
 
Use a grant and pump from the grant. Once you pull a vacuum on the grain, it will compress and cause a stuck mash, then it will collapse your false bottom.
 
I know this thread is a little old, but yesterday I did an accidental experiment that I think clearly demonstrates the pressures at the bottom of a mash tun. A pic of my system is attached which uses 15gal kegs. I was using a plain jane stainless steel false bottom with no support underneath. I was doing two 10 gal batches. The first had about 20lbs of grain and I noticed when I cleaned it out for round 2 the FB had flattened so I got the bright idea to place a 1/2 copper coupling below the bottom for support. Never really thought about there being that much pressure. When I cleaned out the mash tun I found the FB had flattened and the copper coupling had punch a hole thru the steel FB. I attached pics of the top and bottom of the false bottom. I would think there must be considerable pressure to do that.

WOW ... That's crazy; never seen that ... What gauge is your false bottom? Was it originally domed?
 
WOW ... That's crazy; never seen that ... What gauge is your false bottom? Was it originally domed?
Yes it was domed. I don't know the gauge. I bought it used, but it measures about 1mm so I think it is 18 gauge. I have ordered a Jaybird from Norcal which is supposed to be 16 gauge so hopefully will hold up without having to add additional support. If ever do I now know that I need to add several more and more evenly distribute the weight. Just never dreamed there would be that much pressure from a small March pump.
 
Use a grant and pump from the grant. Once you pull a vacuum on the grain, it will compress and cause a stuck mash, then it will collapse your false bottom.
I am not familiar with a grant. I did a quick search and see what you are referring too. I will research some more and see if this would improve my set up. Thanks.
 
Another thing I just thought of is I did have 1lb of flaked Rye and the rest was Pale malt. I know Rye can get pretty solid and rice hulls are usually suggested, but I did not think 1lb would be enough to require the hulls, but maybe it does.
 
Yes it was domed. I don't know the gauge. I bought it used, but it measures about 1mm so I think it is 18 gauge. I have ordered a Jaybird from Norcal which is supposed to be 16 gauge so hopefully will hold up without having to add additional support. If ever do I now know that I need to add several more and more evenly distribute the weight. Just never dreamed there would be that much pressure from a small March pump.

That really sucks. I've heard great things about Jaybirds false bottoms, and they look well designed to me, so you should be happy with your order. Any false bottom is subject to collapse with enough force though, and as you've learned, it only takes a pressure differential of a couple psi to create tremendous forces. One solution is to use a grant as suggested. It won't necessarily prevent a stuck mash (although it will help some) but it will certainly prevent any damage from occurring if your mash does get stuck.

Another thing I just thought of is I did have 1lb of flaked Rye and the rest was Pale malt. I know Rye can get pretty solid and rice hulls are usually suggested, but I did not think 1lb would be enough to require the hulls, but maybe it does.

It's all subjective. I wouldn't use rice hulls for just one lb of rye, but some people add a handful of rice hulls to every mash, even with a 100% barley grain bill. Recirculating or draining too fast or too suddenly is often the catalyst for a stuck mash and collapsed FB. I recirc pretty slowly during my mash, and every time I start the flow, whether for recirc or for draining/transfer, I always start the pump with the output valve closed, and then slowly open it until I get my desired flow rate.
 
I really enjoyed the thread and I thank you for bringing it back to life else I would have missed it. Hydraulics are cool to think about. Recirculate slowly and I highly encourage malt conditioning or wet milling.
 
I have been corresponding with Jaybird and after I told him I have a RIMS system he suggested a 15" with a stand underneath since by design there is almost constant pressure on the FB because I have to recirculate during the entire mash and because I don't want excessive heat build up in the RIMS heat stick I keep the flow fairly high. I do reduce the flow to a minimum during lautering of course. As for the Grant is there a place to buy one or do they have to be constructed?
 
Received my new false bottom from Jaybird (NorCal Brewing) 15" hinged with handle and stand. Very sturdy 16 gauge much stronger than my original 18 gauge. Wanted to give Jay a thumbs up for giving some great ideas on reversing the flow when I mash out which should loosen the grain bed. Also recommended the stand since RIMS creates a lot of constant pressure on the FB.
 
Back
Top