Critiquing a bad brew for a newer brewer?

[Malric]

I help lead a relatively new brew club. We have a member that has been brewing extract for just over a year. Unfortunately, he seems to be struggling with some of the basics. Temp control, process consistency, etc.

I'll preface by saying that I do not have the best palette. Ok, not great. This brewer brought over an oatmeal stout and asked for honest feedback. It's bottle confitioned, over carbonated, thin body, no creaminess, a little cider/tang on the finish and aroma is virtually non existant.

How honest would you be?

 

[Hopper5000]

The most important thing is to try to say something positive first. If you go negative people can get defensive. Also, try to suggest a solution to the flavors and/or ask about the persons brewing process. If they are really looking for honest feedback just be gentle.

 

[drainbamage]

Try to start with the good, whatever it may be. Try to find something...good color, right amount of roast, etc. It sounds like he doesn't have much going for him right now, so it might hard to give feedback without just totally crapping on him.

On the other hand, if he seems pretty thick-skinned, maybe it would be ok to lay it all out. Perhaps you could list the issues you found along with the ways he can correct them.

Either way, it sounds like a tough situation. Good luck!

 

[Sammy86]

Depends on the person...is he going to take constructive criticism well? Or is he going to blow up like and straight up slap you in the face like Luke Wilson did Matt Walsh in Old school?

If a person wants honesty give it to them. Better to be honest now so they can work on their mistakes then have him continue the same mistakes for years and years

 

[Ewow]

Agreed. Also, after leading with a positive and asking about their process, you will likely have a number of ideas about how to help. You could then say something like, "I have a number of ideas for how to improve it, but it might be overwhelming to hear them all at once. Many brewers try to focus on improving one thing each time. Would you rather hear my "best bang for the buck" thought or hear them all?"

Then you have put the decision in their hands and it might help you avoid just completely overwhelming them. If they are easily discouraged, maybe you just give them the suggestion you think will make the most difference. If they've got thick skin and ask for all of it, go for it (gently, of course )

 

[Warbirdbrewer]

Unfortunately not knowing him I can't guess how he would take criticism. Have you asked what HE thinks of the beer?
A tactful way might be something like " not too bad for a new brewer, I bet if you brewed this again and kept the temperature down lower it would be even better."

When I got into this hobby I told everyone who tried my beer to give me their honest no holes barred opinion. That's the only way you learn and if they lie to me and say they love it then they will get more crappy beer in the future.

Does your club ever get together for brew sessions? That would be a great way to help show him the ropes.

 

[hunter_le five]

Be sure to have the empty bottle on hand so you can collect his tears for later batches.

 

[Ewow]

Try to start with the good, whatever it may be. Try to find something...good color, right amount of roast, etc.

^^This.

One of my first brews was an extract witbeer that I bottle conditioned. In memory, it probably wasn't very good. It was probably pretty solventy. But the best homebrewer I knew told me I'd got the carbonation perfect when he tried it. Looking back, that beer was probably gross, but that dude was kind and led with a positive before helping me to think about how we might improve it for the next batch.

 

[drainbamage]

Unfortunately not knowing him I can't guess how he would take criticism. Have you asked what HE thinks of the beer?

I like this. If he says something like, "it's ok, but I don't like the ______," it lets you easily segue into offering advice without crushing his pride from the get-go.

 

[Vaureywwc]

I don't believe temp control is important you need a balance between knowing your temperature and using the correct yeast. There are wonderful breweries that brew in non-temp controlled environments but the continually change there yeast based on the time of year. Good malt balance is also important.

I also feel like you also want to really make sure that his sanitation is being done thoroughly where it needs to happen. Maybe someone should brew a few batches with them to see what he's doing wrong.

 

[ol-hazza]

For my critiquing I like to have a benchmark to compare it to, so often do a side by side with a similar commercial brew.
You could run through one with them and you should be able to find some positives as well as improvements.

 

[paperairplane]

I don't believe temp control is important you need a balance between knowing your temperature and using the correct yeast ....

There is truth here, with a giant HOWEVER... temp control is probably the most important factor in getting good clean beer.

I would argue that knowing what yeast to use to match a given ambient temp is a type of temp control in itself.

I like to taste beers with a brewer and ask them what they get from the beer - that gives you an idea of their palate and experience, and gives you a place to work from. I am very honest with people - but temper my comments with a lot of teaching. Over carb is not really a huge flaw and is easily corrected. A beer that got too hot and is all fuesel, is easily identified and easy to offer suggestions on swamp cooler, etc. Weird off flavors from wild bugs or bad sanitation are harder to ID and harder to correct.

A lot of time it's an extract beer that was boiled in a 2 gallon pot. So they get a ton more maillard reaction and get a darker and more caramely beer. Doesn't make a bad beer - just needs a little late extract addition instead of all at 60.

Be honest, be constructive and remind them to relax. Share a story about some fails you've had on your own.

 

[FatDragon]

Sounds like the beer caught a mild infection. Thin, overcarbed, and slightly tart are all descriptors I would use for some of the mildly infected beers I've had (sadly, most of them were my own). Maybe he just needs a lesson in cleaning and sanitation.

I don't believe temp control is important you need a balance between knowing your temperature and using the correct yeast. There are wonderful breweries that brew in non-temp controlled environments but the continually change there yeast based on the time of year.

I've not heard about this much before. Could you elaborate? Which breweries brew without temperature control, and what yeasts might they be rotating? Does this mean their beers are all seasonal, or are there equivalent yeast strains for the same styles in different seasons? I know a little bit about yeast temps - generally warmer for saisons, moderate temps for ales, and cooler for lagers, but beyond that I'm pretty lost, and with my currently-inadequate temp control setup, I'd be interested in looking into seasonal yeasts.

 

[Paps]

Sometimes people say they like your brews just to be nice even if it's a lie. You would hope to get more honest feedback from homebrew club members but i'm sure it still happens a good bit.

Personally i've discovered the only thing somebody can say to me to make me think that they like it is "I want more....NOW!" but the look on somebodys face is also a good `tell.

Fortunately i've not had to say "your brew sucks" to many people and i do try to find the positive in each brew especially when they are there asking what you think. Generally most have been good and the not so good ones were mostly drinkable even if it were not something that i'd order a second one if they were being served somewhere.

The 2 worst brews i've had from homebrewers were a gruit of some variety, i can't remember the spice that went into it but it was painfull to finish the 1-oz pour (some drainpoured it), the 2nd worst was a ginger beer that whomever made it used roughly 6 times more ginger than they should have...straight up sushi bar flavor. Everything else has at least been `ok` and some examples have been downright impressive.

Just try to be compassionate in your review & try to help the person become a better brewer by being honest without sounding cruel.

 

[Vaureywwc]

Sounds like the beer caught a mild infection. Thin, overcarbed, and slightly tart are all descriptors I would use for some of the mildly infected beers I've had (sadly, most of them were my own). Maybe he just needs a lesson in cleaning and sanitation.







I've not heard about this much before. Could you elaborate? Which breweries brew without temperature control, and what yeasts might they be rotating? Does this mean their beers are all seasonal, or are there equivalent yeast strains for the same styles in different seasons? I know a little bit about yeast temps - generally warmer for saisons, moderate temps for ales, and cooler for lagers, but beyond that I'm pretty lost, and with my currently-inadequate temp control setup, I'd be interested in looking into seasonal yeasts.

So let's use for this for instance: at the beginning of summer we have to produce 30bbl of a fruit-wheat beer. Our main fermenters our 7bbl. That we keep at 62* using a mangrove dry-yeast called M44. When we do our open top 30bbl we use mangrove workhorse. Temps range 72-75. Both produce same flavors at their ranges. Though the workhorse tends to excel at that temperature comparatively. Usually pushing out of fermentation with 6 days.

From a homebrew stand point I usually switch through multiple yeast strains throughout the year based on the fact that my at home system is lacks most technology.

I'll use one beer as an example:
I make a Chocolate Export Stout year around: in the summer my brew station is about 72-75 degrees I'll use Wyeast 1728. I'm expecting flavors from the malt. I want a yeast that can handle the "high temperature" and still give me the favorable results.

Fall temperature ranges 68-71 I'll use Mangrove M44

Winter I'll use Danstar Nottingham

Spring is Mangrove M44



These results are available through the yeast supplier.

I should fix my prior statement. Many do not use ONLY temperature controlled vessels. Walking Man Brewing at one point used to use several open top fermenters. Figuring what yeasts they use can be tricky but it'd be fairly easy to figure out just looking at comparison charts of yeast strains across the board.

 

[FatDragon]

So let's use for this for instance: at the beginning of summer we have to produce 30bbl of a fruit-wheat beer. Our main fermenters our 7bbl. That we keep at 62* using a mangrove dry-yeast called M44. When we do our open top 30bbl we use mangrove workhorse. Temps range 72-75. Both produce same flavors at their ranges. Though the workhorse tends to excel at that temperature comparatively. Usually pushing out of fermentation with 6 days.

From a homebrew stand point I usually switch through multiple yeast strains throughout the year based on the fact that my at home system is lacks most technology.

I'll use one beer as an example:
I make a Chocolate Export Stout year around: in the summer my brew station is about 72-75 degrees I'll use Wyeast 1728. I'm expecting flavors from the malt. I want a yeast that can handle the "high temperature" and still give me the favorable results.

Fall temperature ranges 68-71 I'll use Mangrove M44

Winter I'll use Danstar Nottingham

Spring is Mangrove M44



These results are available through the yeast supplier.

I should fix my prior statement. Many do not use ONLY temperature controlled vessels. Walking Man Brewing at one point used to use several open top fermenters. Figuring what yeasts they use can be tricky but it'd be fairly easy to figure out just looking at comparison charts of yeast strains across the board.

Thanks, that's the kind of informative reply I was hoping for. Unfortunately, it sounds like your non-temperature controlled home brewery is still in a climate controlled home if you're seeing so little temperature fluctuation, even in Oregon. Fortunately for me, those temp ranges match up pretty well with my underpowered wine fridge fermentation chamber's limits in the various seasons, so I might need to pick up some M44 if summer returns after this atypical temperature drop we've had for the last week and a half here in Wuhan, China.

Edit - oops, meant I should pick up some Workhorse, not M44.