Crazy low efficiency

[coffeespoonman]

Hi all,

Not exactly new to homebrewing, but I live in China, where the brew scence is in its infancy (and still in utero in my city), so I haven't had a lot of clear guidance. I mostly troll forums and learn by trial and error. I've solved a lot of my issues, and I've got no real complaints with my beers, but the one thing I can never solve is my efficiency...

I know that there are about a million factors that affect efficiency, but I'm trying to narrow it down. Using Beersmith, I recently calculated that my average mash efficiency is around 63%. Today, I tried batch sparging for the first time, thinking maybe I've been really messing up the fly sparge all these years, and mash efficiency dropped to 55%.

I know my crush is fine. Everything is calculated based on my equipment and recipe, so I'm pretty sure I'm not just adding too much water or anything like that. Mash tun is a large stainless steel pot with two braided hoses. I heat it directly to mash temp then cover with blankets for the mash duration.

Things that could be keeping me low:

I've never tested my Ph - I use bottled water. But I wouldn't expect that to be my problem. Or should I be testing?

Poor quality grains - I've ordered from a few different sources, but it doesn't seem to make much different. The base is all Chinese grain though. Could this really be lowering my efficiency by 10+ points?

Stirring - I stir when I mash in, and that's usually it when fly sparging. In today's batch sparge, I stirred again when I put the sparge water in.

Bag - I have started using a bag (not BIAB method) in my mash tun to help with cleanup. It's a MASSIVE bag that basically just lines the mash tun. Otherwise, I mash normally. As this is a new addition, it wouldn't be responsible for my old 63%, but could have been one of the factors dropping me to 55% on this brew. Does this seem like a terrible idea?

Anyone have any other thoughts? I don't really mind low efficiency too much. I'm more worried about understanding my process and producing reliable results.

Thanks in advance!

 

[McKnuckle]

The occasionally lower efficiency with using a bag (MIAB or BIAB) is usually to do with employing a full volume mash with no sparge step; it's not the use of a bag in and of itself. So I wouldn't implicate your new bag.

People always hone in on the crush in these threads. If you are really sure your crush is fine enough, then the mash pH is definitely something to look at. Do you add any minerals or acid to the spring water? With a pale beer, mash pH may land in the 5.6-7 range with extremely soft water and no amelioration to adjust pH. That can definitely reduce conversion efficiency (by how much, I can't guess). I would expect a dark beer to perform better - have you had that experience?

Other factors... the diastatic power of your grain. All of the grains listed in the usual recipe tools are of US, UK, German, Belgian origin. Can you find out the specs on your Chinese grain as a reality check?

 

[quijiba]

Hi all,

Not exactly new to homebrewing, but I live in China, where the brew scence is in its infancy (and still in utero in my city), so I haven't had a lot of clear guidance. I mostly troll forums and learn by trial and error. I've solved a lot of my issues, and I've got no real complaints with my beers, but the one thing I can never solve is my efficiency...

I know that there are about a million factors that affect efficiency, but I'm trying to narrow it down. Using Beersmith, I recently calculated that my average mash efficiency is around 63%. Today, I tried batch sparging for the first time, thinking maybe I've been really messing up the fly sparge all these years, and mash efficiency dropped to 55%.

I know my crush is fine. Everything is calculated based on my equipment and recipe, so I'm pretty sure I'm not just adding too much water or anything like that. Mash tun is a large stainless steel pot with two braided hoses. I heat it directly to mash temp then cover with blankets for the mash duration.

Things that could be keeping me low:

I've never tested my Ph - I use bottled water. But I wouldn't expect that to be my problem. Or should I be testing?

Poor quality grains - I've ordered from a few different sources, but it doesn't seem to make much different. The base is all Chinese grain though. Could this really be lowering my efficiency by 10+ points?

Stirring - I stir when I mash in, and that's usually it when fly sparging. In today's batch sparge, I stirred again when I put the sparge water in.

Bag - I have started using a bag (not BIAB method) in my mash tun to help with cleanup. It's a MASSIVE bag that basically just lines the mash tun. Otherwise, I mash normally. As this is a new addition, it wouldn't be responsible for my old 63%, but could have been one of the factors dropping me to 55% on this brew. Does this seem like a terrible idea?

Anyone have any other thoughts? I don't really mind low efficiency too much. I'm more worried about understanding my process and producing reliable results.

Thanks in advance!

Ph will impact it a little. Shouldn't drop it 8% though. If you're using bottled water I would consider inputting your water profile to beersmith and at least ball park adjusting your PH.

Stirring isn't huge (for me at least). I do one stir, then sparge and that's it. No issues.

I don't use a bag so can't comment.

Grain is worth exploring further though. That's one i've noticed big time. Different 2row for exmaple will give you different efficiencies, even from year to year. Worth doing some experiments there I think above all else

 

[max384]

Hi all,

Not exactly new to homebrewing, but I live in China, where the brew scence is in its infancy (and still in utero in my city), so I haven't had a lot of clear guidance. I mostly troll forums and learn by trial and error. I've solved a lot of my issues, and I've got no real complaints with my beers, but the one thing I can never solve is my efficiency...

I know that there are about a million factors that affect efficiency, but I'm trying to narrow it down. Using Beersmith, I recently calculated that my average mash efficiency is around 63%. Today, I tried batch sparging for the first time, thinking maybe I've been really messing up the fly sparge all these years, and mash efficiency dropped to 55%.

I know my crush is fine. Everything is calculated based on my equipment and recipe, so I'm pretty sure I'm not just adding too much water or anything like that. Mash tun is a large stainless steel pot with two braided hoses. I heat it directly to mash temp then cover with blankets for the mash duration.

Things that could be keeping me low:

I've never tested my Ph - I use bottled water. But I wouldn't expect that to be my problem. Or should I be testing?

Poor quality grains - I've ordered from a few different sources, but it doesn't seem to make much different. The base is all Chinese grain though. Could this really be lowering my efficiency by 10+ points?

Stirring - I stir when I mash in, and that's usually it when fly sparging. In today's batch sparge, I stirred again when I put the sparge water in.

Bag - I have started using a bag (not BIAB method) in my mash tun to help with cleanup. It's a MASSIVE bag that basically just lines the mash tun. Otherwise, I mash normally. As this is a new addition, it wouldn't be responsible for my old 63%, but could have been one of the factors dropping me to 55% on this brew. Does this seem like a terrible idea?

Anyone have any other thoughts? I don't really mind low efficiency too much. I'm more worried about understanding my process and producing reliable results.

Thanks in advance!

The biggest factor in low efficiency is the crush. How do you know your crush is fine? Do you crush it yourself?

pH could play a role.

If it's a porous mesh bag, that should have nothing to do with your low efficiency.

How long are you mashing for? At what temperature?

 

[kh54s10]

From the little information given I suspect that either the crush is not that good or it is the grain. Are you sure it is Malted Barley. As said most grains for brewing come from Maltsters that have been refining their processes for decades if not hundreds of years.

Poor grain could easily be the culprit.

 

[mongoose33]

My first all-grain batch had low efficiency. What I now do--and I'm in the 75-80 percent area--is this. BTW, I batch sparge.

1. Double-crush. I always run my grain through twice. I also suspect crush in OP's case, but even if ok, double-crush it. My early all-grain batches used a crush from the LHBS, and I believe that was part of the low efficiency thing.

2. I stir. Once my grain is fully integrated into the water, I will stir again at 15 minutes and again at 30 minutes. This made a big difference.

3. When I batch sparge I pour in the sparge water and stir, stir, stir. Then I let the grain bed settle for a few minutes (maybe 5) before vorlauf.

4. PH. I get my PH down in the 5.3 area usually. If PH is too high--and if you're using bottled water only, and it's RO water, I'll bet your PH is in the 5.7-5.8 area, which is too high.

I just did a quick calc using EZWater to see what I'd get if I used RO water, 9# of 2-row malt and no other water amendments. The calculated pH of the mash was 5.77, which is way too high. Depending on the malt you're using, you could perhaps be even higher. That's going to cut your efficiency some.


I also suspect what Quijiba notes above. The grain could have a great deal to do with it. I use a specific source for my grain, but a couple months ago I was helping a friend learn how to brew, and he'd bought ingredients from the LHBS--including the grain. Crushed it as per normal, and we had the most remarkably low PH I've ever had. Never figured that one out, did some adjusting on the fly and got it up to about 5.08. That beer ended up turning out quite well, and I've since read that a low PH isn't disastrous--and it wasn't in our case.


***************

FatDragon here on HBT is also from China (Wuhan, specifically), and I don't think he's having this trouble. I had several of his beers when i was there in January, and they were fine--and he didn't mention any issues of malt to me. I'm going to point him to this thread, see if he can add anything. He may have suppliers or other ideas for you.

 

[sikkingj]

I have to agree with the earlier posts, I believe your crush is the most likely culprit. Since you are using a bag, crush your grain to dust, this will allow you to maximize your sugar extraction.

 

[RM-MN]

This is what my grains look like when I'm ready to add them to the mash. I expect over 85% efficiency with grains milled this fine. The coin alongside is a US penny for size comparison.

 

[Lefou]

After calculating a 51% efficiency on my first all grain brew with an Igloo mash cooler, I've altered a few things after re-reading the sticky articles on efficiency issues.
I was allowing the brew shop to grind my grains at first, but not now.

1. Added CaCl to the mash water. The initial untreated water was very soft.
2. If I'm using malted wheat in my mash, I've turned it into flour - but only when using small portions of wheat to barley.
3. Added a bit extra amylase enzyme to the mash water.
4. Added a bit more mash water to compensate for the grain absorbing water.
5. Kept some Pils LME and honey on hand to compensate for low initial gravity prior to boil..

 

[FatDragon]

@mongoose33 suggested I weigh in. We chatted a bit on another thread about your grains: you're buying from manpin pijiu on Taobao, right? Their primary "auzzy" base malt (described by one guy I know as "feed grade barley from Australia, shipped to China and malted in the mainland) was my base grain for about two and a half years. I made some of my best beers on that stuff and I wouldn't have much of a problem going back to it, but it's not your typical brewing barley. I believe I figured its pppg (potential points per gallon) to be something around 1.029, compared to 1.036 for most typical brewing grain. In other words, it's got about 80% of the sugar by weight of most brewing grain, so your 63% is actually in the high 70's. The other note I would give on that stuff is that it's got more protein than typical brewing grains, so you might find you get more trub and hazier beers. Again, I don't consider it a big deal, but if those are things you value, I'd suggest looking into other grain sources like PC, 多姐, or buying from a brewpub. A guy I know in Wuhan recently sent me a link to a taobao shop selling Maris Otter among other imported grains, for a decent, but not comparable to manpin's $0.75/kilo, price. If I can find the link I might send you a PM if you're interested.

 

[coffeespoonman]

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone!

The reason that I don't blame my crush is because that's the variable I used to always play with. I crush at home, using two different mills (hand and motorized). I have crushed to what I consider a normal crush (few intact hulls, most cracked but not flour), and I have also crushed to the degree of the picture above (lots of powder with some cracked hulls still in there). I have single crushed and double crushed. None of those things seem to make much difference. That's why I don't blame the crush.

For mashing, I do what Beersmith tells me. Yesterday, it was Mash in at 71.7 C for 75 mins. I think after mashing in, my step temp was one degree Celsius off. But I just took a temp reading from the top of the mash tun - could have been hotter near the bottom.

I will order some Ph testing equipment. This last beer was a very low body IPA, so I used nothing but pale ale and a ridiculous amount of hops.

Fatdragon - this barley is not actually from Manpin. I took your advice and tried a different source. I got some of the Malteurop stuff from here:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.gTbcwX&id=532763852968&_u=q2jakloib53b

It's not 多姐, but their base malt is also Malteurop. You mentioned the the Malteurop stuff wasn't really imported? Could it be the same deal as Manpin? PC has Weyermann, but the difference in price is huge. (8 RMB for a half kilo at PC as opposed to 7 for a kilo for Malteurop from 多&#22992

I suspect this will be along the same lines but will give it a test:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.gTbcwX&id=531157240029&_u=q2jakloi7daa

If that's no good, I'll also ask some local homebrewers where they get their malt - there are no reliable brewpubs nearby, though I suppose I could talk to some of the brewmasters in Shanghai.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[schematix]

What's your mash temp/schedule?

I've recently experienced an issue with some big name high dollar grain where the gelatinizatioin temp was below my usual first mash step temp, so the starches weren't being released for the enzymes. Once i learned this i cranked my mash temps up a few degrees and my efficiency numbers came back.

I'm wondering if this feed grade barley needs to be mashed differently.

 

[FatDragon]

Fatdragon - this barley is not actually from Manpin. I took your advice and tried a different source. I got some of the Malteurop stuff from here:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.gTbcwX&id=532763852968&_u=q2jakloib53b

It's not 多姐, but their base malt is also Malteurop. You mentioned the the Malteurop stuff wasn't really imported? Could it be the same deal as Manpin? PC has Weyermann, but the difference in price is huge. (8 RMB for a half kilo at PC as opposed to 7 for a kilo for Malteurop from 多&#22992

I suspect this will be along the same lines but will give it a test:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.gTbcwX&id=531157240029&_u=q2jakloi7daa

If that's no good, I'll also ask some local homebrewers where they get their malt - there are no reliable brewpubs nearby, though I suppose I could talk to some of the brewmasters in Shanghai.

Thanks again everyone!

I've not verified it, but I suspect that "Malteurop" is the exact same grain that Manpin sells. The one you linked appears to be the same stuff as well. Nothing wrong with it if you don't mind a bigger grainbill to hit gravity - it tastes alright and it's cheaper to use an extra 20% of it compared to buying one of the imported brand names. I don't remember what I'm paying for Castle Pils and Vienna by the sack from a local brewpub, but it's not a lot cheaper than buying it from 多姐 or PC; probably 13-15/kg. That's over twice the cost of using domestically-malted grain even if you consider the difference in PPPG. I justify the cost because 50kg (a sack of each) lasts me roughly a year, and I really like a 100% Vienna grainbill.

 

[BarleyPopBrewer]

I'm sure it's been touched on but I went from 65% efficiency to over 80% because of a crush change. I was using the mill at my LHBS and then got my own mill. Made a hugeeee difference.

 

[coffeespoonman]

Hi all,

Thanks again for all the replies. So, after consulting with all of you (and some local brewers), I've decided to do a couple things on the next batch.

1. Add a 30 min saccharification rest at 50 C before raising it to mash temp.

2. Look a bit more into the mineral profile of the water and add what's missing (a local brewer/engineer says he adds mgso4, cacl, caco3, nahco3 and caso4). First I have to learn what those are and how to add them though.

3. Always err on the side of finer crush (I swear my crush is already fine though!)

4. Accept that I will have lower efficiency because I'm using substandard grains.

I'll try to hit the highest I can, but the most important thing is predictability, not efficiency.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Frodo]

Just another thing to consider if you haven't, using the braids in your mash tun probably causes some channeling of flow so maybe lends to batch sparging being more efficient. However if you found a false bottom for your pot maybe fly sparging could get you a little more efficiency.

 

[madscientist451]

The are two things I can think of that hasn't been suggested:
1# Stir the water in your mash tun before taking the temperature. Since you are directly heating the mash tun, is there a chance you could have hot spots on the bottom and cold spots higher up?
2# Efficiency calculations rely on correct volume measurements and gravity readings.
Are you 100% sure of your volume measurements?
Your original post mentions "mash efficiency". Are you taking a sample before the boil and letting it cool down to test with a hydrometer?
The Brewer's Friend Website has an efficiency calculator a good explanation of efficiency terms. Perhaps plug your number into that and see if there's a difference?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

Also, put your last recipe in here including the grain bill, strike water temperature, mash temperature, gravity before boiling, volume before boiling and any notes you have from the brew day and you'll be able to get more answers.

 

[RoadKing]

You could to a test mini mash. 1 pound of grain into 1 gallon of water and check the gravity.
At least it will tell you the potential of the grain if your not sure.

 

[coffeespoonman]

@Frodo - I just put in new braids and tried a batch sparge. I actually lost efficiency, though I can't be sure whether it was from the batch sparge or the new braids.

@Madscientist - Yes, I do stir before I take a temp reading.

Here's my last recipe. Apologies for the half imperial / half metric:

Ottoman Slap IPA - 10 gallon batch

16.3 kg base malt
50g Cascade First Wort
50g Simcoe 60'
50g Centennial 40'
115g Cascade 20'
100g Amarillo 0'
100g Mosaic 0'
100g Cascade 0'

Added 11.3 gallons of water and heated to 71.7 C. Mashed in. Step temp should have been 64.4 (I think it was closer to 63). Mashed for 75 mins. Batch sparged with 7.46 gallons at 75.6 C.

Refractometer told me preboil was 1.059, but that can't be right. I should have double checked with my hydrometer. Post boil was 1.060. Checked that with the hydrometer and two different samples. Adjusted for temp, and then just to be sure, actually lowered the sample to 20 C.

According to Beersmith, my post boil should have been 1.068, and that's with my already plugging in my standard lowish efficiency (BH efficiency of 56%, Mash Efficiency of 63.8%).

 

[McKnuckle]

When I plug in those numbers, I get a slightly higher (65%) mash efficiency with my system/process. The low brewhouse number is almost certainly because you're losing a lot of volume somewhere. 18.76 gallons for a 10 gallon batch is a LOT of water. My yield with that much water would be over 14 gallons in the fermenter given my typical losses.

Focusing on the mash efficiency, though, leads us to crush, grain PPG, grain absorption, mash pH, and lauter efficiency as your key places to look for improvements.

 

[RM-MN]

With your brewing we still don't know if you are dealing with bad barley or a bad crush. Take a few minutes to read this part of How to Brew, then do a quick experiment to see where the problem lies. http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/extraction-and-maximum-yield

Take a weighed sample of your base malt (one pound of pale malt barley) and use a blender (if possible, other milling will work if fine enough) and pulverize the grain. You want it to be near flour with all the husks ripped to shreds. Mix this into one gallon (carefully measured, not estimated) that is at 161F (good thermometer is necessary) and stir it well. Let it sit for an hour, then stir it well again. Now take a gravity sample with your hydrometer (sample cooled to hydrometer temps, no conversion table). Next tell us the OG of your sample. From that we can give you definitive advice instead of just guessing.

 

[coffeespoonman]

@RM-MN - I'll do that on my next brew day and post the results. All my fermenters are full at the moment, so it might be a week or so.

@McKnuckle - Yes, you're right. Part of the reason that I lose so much water is because I have to add so much grain. I also actually get more than 10 gallons. I get about 6 gallons in each fermenter. About 5.5 gallons comes out of each one. Most of it goes into kegs, and whatever's left goes into bottles.

Thanks again!

 

[FatDragon]

@McKnuckle - Yes, you're right. Part of the reason that I lose so much water is because I have to add so much grain. I also actually get more than 10 gallons. I get about 6 gallons in each fermenter. About 5.5 gallons comes out of each one. Most of it goes into kegs, and whatever's left goes into bottles.

Thanks again!

Getting more than ten gallons, I hope your efficiency numbers are reflective of the actual volume and not the intended volume. That would make a difference.

As for the grain quality: looking at my copy of Beersmith, I have Chinese 2-row listed as 1.031 pppg. Plugging in your last brewday (assuming 10 gallons final volume) your efficiency was still quite low, so you're right to keep pursuing other solutions. The grain quality is part of your issue for sure, but there's something else going on as well.

If you want to see the difference in grain quality, use imported base malt of known quality for your next brewday and see the difference in efficiency. Just be sure to use 80% or less in the grainbill if you don't want a super strong beer or a third fermenter full of wort after diluting to your intended gravity.

 

[RM-MN]

@RM-MN - I'll do that on my next brew day and post the results. All my fermenters are full at the moment, so it might be a week or so.

@McKnuckle - Yes, you're right. Part of the reason that I lose so much water is because I have to add so much grain. I also actually get more than 10 gallons. I get about 6 gallons in each fermenter. About 5.5 gallons comes out of each one. Most of it goes into kegs, and whatever's left goes into bottles.

Thanks again!

This isn't intended to become beer so the fact that your fermenters are full don't matter. With the grains pulverized you will have difficulty separating them from the wort. Just do this as an experiment so you know what you are getting for grains.

 

[coffeespoonman]

@FatDragon - yes, my efficiency is calculated based on the actual volume, not just 5 gallons. I've just ordered 50kg from Manpin (seemed to have better results with that than the Malteurop), so I won't be ordering any more base malt for a few brews, but what I can do is order a bit of imported malt and test it along with the Manpin stuff. Then at least I should be able to more reliably explain at least a part of the efficiency loss.

@RM-MN - I realize that, but it would be a lot easier for me to do the test when I've already set aside some time for a brew, which will be in a week or two (as opposed to this last weekend), due to the fact that that my fermenters are all full. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[TheBrewBag]

The occasionally lower efficiency with using a bag (MIAB or BIAB) is usually to do with employing a full volume mash with no sparge step; it's not the use of a bag in and of itself. So I wouldn't implicate your new bag.

Full volume mashing calculated correctly delivers a consistent 78.5% average. A buddy and i have tracked over 150 brews using this method and a fabric filter. He averaged 78.4 and I 78.5%. This indicates that every brewer is capable of the same results.

The only variable in full volume mashing is the grain absorption as the grain bill changes. 10 lbs x 7 oz post squeeze - or 15 x 7 oz. - + you never leave any wort behind except that which is held by the grain after squeezing.

If the potential of your grain is 1.029 you'll need to adjust your software accordingly. Ultimately, water volume is the culprit with most low eff problems and generally occurs as brewers leave wort in the mash tun and the grain.

Grain crush is somewhat important but the differential between a crush of .030 and .050 is about 10% - not 10 points - and time. So a .030 might produce 1.055 whereas a crush of .050 would be in ~ 1.050. Coarser crush = more time - finer crush less time.

 

[ViperMan]

I'm surprised that in three pages, no one has mentioned the biggest potential culprit in this whole discussion...

When's the last time you calibrated your thermometers?

As I was starting to homebrew, I slowly watched my efficiencies plummet until they reached the low 60's as you've seen. It took someone asked me the same question before I measured the same water with two thermometers and realized the one I had been relying on was measuring 10+ degrees too cool. I was basically trying to mash my grains in lukewarm water!

Get a Thermapen or something similar, calibrate it in icewater (thermapen's website has a good how-to on this) and check it frequently.

Also, try doing a step-mash just once and see what that does - set your initial mash-in to approximately .8 or .85 qts-per-pound (or liters or whatever you use in China!) and aim for a temp around 130, maybe 20 minutes. Then add warmer water to the 1.3 or 1.4'ish ratio to end up at your desired mash temp.

Basically I did those same things and my efficiency shot up into the 80's.

 

[msherretz]

@Coffeespoonman and @Fatdragon, I teach brewing in Shanghai and have a true Homebrew Store. I agree that the Chinese grain is partially to blame for your calculated low efficiency. Your setup sounds fine but don't go too fine on your crush or you will suffer stuck sparge.
The factor you did not mention was recirculating the mash. You need to do that for the last 15 minutes of the mash and stop when it turns clear and the surface of the removed wort is shinny. All this is done before you start the sparge.
In addition, stir the mash for 5 minutes initially and then every 15 minutes until the last 15 minutes where you recirculate instead.
The Chinese grain story is true. Consider other grain sources. I have a great brewer customer in Suzhou who makes some of the best Pilsners around that I can also get you in touch with.
I also recommend the use of powdered Amylase enzyme for maximum efficiency. I have all the imported grains also.
Try inputting the 1.029 figure into BeerSmith for the Chinese grain and you may find you are getting the efficiency from your system and just need better grains to improve yields.
Feel free to contact me on WeChat .... my ID is Mike-Homebrew.

 

[coffeespoonman]

@Viperman - You got me excited for a minute, but I just tested my thermometer by taking a reading with it and a separate thermometer, and I got the exact same result. So, I think the thermometer's probably fine. I'll give that step mash a try, though!

@msherretz - Actually, I attended a brew day at your house a few years back. I think we made a Pliny the Elder. And something else. Was a great time, and I learned a lot! We had a quick chat this NYE at The Hop Project in Shanghai - perhaps you remember. I'm sure I know your guy in Suzhou as well (there aren't a whole lot of us over here).

I do recirculate, but perhaps not enough. I'll also probably be in touch about that enzyme (and perhaps some other things). It would also be nice to come by for another brew day with you if you're still doing those. Now that I've got a few years of brewing under my belt, I'm sure joining you for a day would help me refine my technique.