Crawlspace Brewery Build

[dixon52]

I am still a relative newbie, I have only done about 15 batches over the past year. As it has expanded, I have moved from the Kitchen to the Deck/garage now to the crawlspace! This should become the final location for my brewing, and I am trying my best to do it right the 1st time! For those of you that have the permanent setups, what would you change/improve if you had to do it over again?
Spend more/less on certain things?

Here are the "before" pics
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24714&stc=1&d=1303508848

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24715&stc=1&d=1303508848

And here are my layout / dimensions:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24716&stc=1&d=1303508848

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24717&stc=1&d=1303508848

Everything will be pretty new to me, but I am loving the advice from these forums. I should be 'breaking ground' in about 2 weeks, and I will keep you updated on the progress!!!

https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/smilies/occasion14.gif

 

[rambler]

Boy, with that space the possibilities are endless. What type of brewing do you do, how much equip do you have. What are your water/power/gas options?

 

[zepolmot]

Is that space really ventilated enough to do you brewing in there? I can definitely see it being an awesome spot for a huge amount of fermenters, but having your brew rig set up there?

 

[EarthBound]

A crawl space (as the name suggests) is a type of basement in which one cannot stand up.

 

[Mosesdanger]

Subscribed. Very interested. Good luck brother!

 

[TheBroonery]

You're going to need some ventilation to get the moisture and steam from boiling wort away from all that wood, which would otherwise turn moldy. Get a bathroom fart fan with the highest CFM rating you can find, and mount it above the kettles. You might want to get some hay or something for the floor too. These spaces (attics / crawlspaces) aren't really designed to be occupied.

 

[jbug440]

I wish my crawl space was that high. Mine is a belly crawl. I'm assuming you have a large door, can u set up the rig near the door? The door + some fans you should be good on ventilation.

 

[dixon52]

So I should have clarified more of the plan! First, I am going to finish out the area, most likely with plywood instead of drywall, to try and tackle the mold issue. Once everything is done, I plan on installing a window unit a/c to help with this too. (any issues with venting that directly to the rest of the crawlspace?) knowing ventilation will be a big issue (especially on brew days) I am going to allow the small vents (already there) to be opened to allow for fresh air coming in, and then put a hood and vent out above all of the boiling kettles. I think that will suffice... I hope!!! Once I get to building the vent, I will research the amount of CFM needed and try my best!

Boy, with that space the possibilities are endless. What type of brewing do you do, how much equip do you have. What are your water/power/gas options?

I am going to have an electrician add a breaker and run a separate line down to the space for me to build from. And on the backside of the sink is our main drain to our septic tank, I plan on tapping into that and adding water to the area (it is close for a water softener).

As for the heat... here it comes... I was going to continue to use propane. I know there are topics covering the dangers of using propane indoors, but with the adequate (I tend to overkill) ventilation, a CO detector, and a fire extinguisher... how is this different than the propane used in most rural homes?

Thanks for the thoughts!!! I will get more pics as they come!

PS-

A crawl space (as the name suggests) is a type of basement in which one cannot stand up.

HAHA, you are correct, I guess someone was going to call me on my "crawlspace" definition! I call it that because it has a dirt floor and can only be accessed from outside (unlike an unfinished basement) but if it makes you feel better, when you come over we will get down on our knees and crawl around!!! :cross:

 

[lschiavo]

I am going to have an electrician add a breaker and run a separate line down to the space for me to build from.

I would consider having a subpanel installed. Then you will have room to add circuits and even go electric with the brewery if you want.

 

[Yukon_Skiers]

interesting.

 

[ColonelPanic]

This whole idea gives me an uneasy feeling. There's lots of pitfalls to watch out for. Have you considered going electric? There would be less excess heat and moisture and less chance of burning down your house or getting CO poisoning. Since you are going to have electric service installed down there anyway, you could go a little bigger than planned to handle electric heating elements.

For the AC unit you mentioned -- are you going to vent it into the rest of the crawlspace? I don't know about yours, but my crawlspace already has lots of moisture in it and an AC exhaust would put even more moisture into it.

Have you considered building or buying a "brew shed" instead? It seams like you would have less problems and more flexibility to go that route.

 

[beernardo]

A dirt floor actually gives you some advantages in flexibility. I'm assuming that you're going to pour concrete in there. Think of putting in a floor drain if you can connect it to your waste line. That would be huge. If you're using propane indoors, I'd wager that you'd have to find restaurant grade ventilation. Your burners will be on the order of a commercial burner, so don't get cheap and install a bathroom fan. A vent system with a hood is on order.

A big issue with propane is tank storage - will you be installing a large, residential tank outside and getting it filled by a service? Or are you thinking of storing the leaky, used and abused, trade-in tanks inside your house? (The latter is a bad idea.) I had one that *looked* brand-new run a slow leak that filled my outdoor shed with propane. I nearly passed out when I opened the door... It's a good thing I'm not a smoker. (And yes, the tanks was closed tight, just the seal must have gone bad.)

Don't vent an AC to an inside room unless you like the look of mold growing on your walls and ceilings.

 

[beernardo]

Oh - and on the propane thing - if your house has NG, there are burners available, and it's not terribly difficult to run the plumbing. I know that people are scared of it, and you need to be extremely cautious, but it's just a matter of being methodical. Since you're in a big project, it might even be worth it to pay a plumber to come in and run the lines if you're unwilling or unable to tackle it (some states actually ban homeowners from installing NG line).

 

[ConiferAles]

As for the heat... here it comes... I was going to continue to use propane. I know there are topics covering the dangers of using propane indoors, but with the adequate (I tend to overkill) ventilation, a CO detector, and a fire extinguisher... how is this different than the propane used in most rural homes?

Well, for one those stove tops have usually something like an 8,000, x2 10,000, and maybe a 12,000 btu burner(s). Total if all burners are running at once = 40,000 btu

A banjo burner is capable of about 210,000 btu, and you might have 2 going at the same time.

That's 5 times the btu output of one of those propane stovetops with all burners on full blast at once. Also, without knowing the specifics of how and why, they re MADE for indoor use, there's likely some safeguards in place.

Those banjo-type burners are MADE for outdoor use. Even when I use my bayou burner in the opening of my garage if there's any wind or the windows/doors are allowing ventilation into the house, I can feel lightheadedness.

I'm saying this as a precaution, that you really need to consider what you're getting into with your space limitations, and you might actually consider going electric, I think this is a great situation for it. Especially if you're about to have an electrician go in there, have a subpanel installed as was earlier suggested. CO poisoning is REAL! Even with the best ventilation down there, it will still be inundating the space...

Safety first!

 

[EarthBound]

HAHA, you are correct, I guess someone was going to call me on my "crawlspace" definition! I call it that because it has a dirt floor and can only be accessed from outside (unlike an unfinished basement) but if it makes you feel better, when you come over we will get down on our knees and crawl around!!! :cross:

Someone had to do it. Apparently, I've been appointed. I'm glad you laughed because I wasn't trying to criticize. I suppose if you drank enough, it would become a crawlspace!

 

[quigsnshad]

I end up with a scab on my 3rd or 4th vertebrae everytime I use my crawlspace. That joint looks like a cathedral.

 

[imreallycrazy]

Well, for one those stove tops have usually something like an 8,000, x2 10,000, and maybe a 12,000 btu burner(s). Total if all burners are running at once = 40,000 btu

A banjo burner is capable of about 210,000 btu, and you might have 2 going at the same time.

That's 5 times the btu output of one of those propane stovetops with all burners on full blast at once. Also, without knowing the specifics of how and why, they re MADE for indoor use, there's likely some safeguards in place.

Those banjo-type burners are MADE for outdoor use. Even when I use my bayou burner in the opening of my garage if there's any wind or the windows/doors are allowing ventilation into the house, I can feel lightheadedness.

I'm saying this as a precaution, that you really need to consider what you're getting into with your space limitations, and you might actually consider going electric, I think this is a great situation for it. Especially if you're about to have an electrician go in there, have a subpanel installed as was earlier suggested. CO poisoning is REAL! Even with the best ventilation down there, it will still be inundating the space...

Safety first!

Its been five years since I worked in the prpoane installation industry but these things I do remember; indoor propane heaters must pass strict quality tests as to efficiently burning all fuel at a rate that doesn't producers those gasses that are hazardous to inhale. They are also equipped with an oxygen sensitive pilot system that will shut the heater down if if oxygen levels drop. Burners such as the normally utilized "turkey dryer burner" are specifically designed for open air use, putting off much more hazardous gases because it is expected that abundant oxygen resources are available. By using a burner like that indoors, let alone inside your actual house is not only incredibly dangerous, but opens you up to all kinds of liabilities insurancewise. Also a note on propane tanks; one of the most important reasons to keep them outside is internal pressure. No they won't "explode" but they WILL vent. Propane is a gas by normal definition, and when you put it in a tank it is compressed to increase storage capacity. This causes the gas to turn to liquid in the tank normally not a big deal, but if you have your little 4 gallon tank filled on a nice cold winter afternoon you pull physics further into play. The colder the gas is before compression the denser it is. Thus you have a greater internal capacity, but if that compressed liquid goes up in temperature, say you took it into a warmer area like part of you house, the density goes down creating MUCH higher pressure. Now propane tank valves are designed with this problem in mind by way of a pressure release valve facing away from the tank, which vents ALL that excess pressure, and propane being heavier than air will seek out the lowest areas and "puddle" there causing a terrible fire hazard.

All of this to say, be VERY careful! Many is the man killed by his "simple" solution.

Sorry for all the doom and gloom, but I'd hate to hear you'd hurt yourself in some way.

Ben

 

[dixon52]

I would consider having a subpanel installed. Then you will have room to add circuits and even go electric with the brewery if you want.

Done, thanks! I like the ability to have flexibility and this seems like a perfect solution. Any specifications that I need to set up ahead of time to leave me open to an electric system? Should I have him dedicate a breaker to a single outlet to build from etc?

For the AC unit you mentioned -- are you going to vent it into the rest of the crawlspace? I don't know about yours, but my crawlspace already has lots of moisture in it and an AC exhaust would put even more moisture into it.

Have you considered building or buying a "brew shed" instead? It seams like you would have less problems and more flexibility to go that route.

The A/C is an interesting point... probably a long enough discussion for its own thread. I have always thought that the A/C unit using its condenser will dehumidify the air and put out dry air on both sides. Which is why it would have to be drained (or hooked up to a drain). I still believe this is true, but have been reading about the nightmares of venting anything into a crawlspace / attic and seems like it would be a better idea to vent out an exterior wall. Done.

A Brew shed would be the much preferred solution, but my HOA would not be thrilled. (Maybe I can convince them to donate a common area for a few HBs?)

A dirt floor actually gives you some advantages in flexibility. I'm assuming that you're going to pour concrete in there. Think of putting in a floor drain if you can connect it to your waste line. That would be huge. If you're using propane indoors, I'd wager that you'd have to find restaurant grade ventilation. Your burners will be on the order of a commercial burner, so don't get cheap and install a bathroom fan. A vent system with a hood is on order.

Interesting! I had been planning on doing a plywood floor with linoleum for spills (and ease of construction), but I will have to look into the concrete. Either way, I think a floor drain would be put to more use than I would like to admit.

Also, I appreciate the thoughts on the propane. Short of getting a pet canary to keep down there with me, hopefully I will arrive at a safe option through the next month or so while I build! I do have NG, so that would be 1 way, and then the obvious, electric (for some reason I am still resistant...maybe I will come around!). Either way... a BIG fan is in order to suck out that steam!

 

[trevor_b]

subscribed

 

[lschiavo]

Done, thanks! I like the ability to have flexibility and this seems like a perfect solution. Any specifications that I need to set up ahead of time to leave me open to an electric system? Should I have him dedicate a breaker to a single outlet to build from etc?

The A/C is an interesting point... probably a long enough discussion for its own thread. I have always thought that the A/C unit using its condenser will dehumidify the air and put out dry air on both sides. Which is why it would have to be drained (or hooked up to a drain). I still believe this is true, but have been reading about the nightmares of venting anything into a crawlspace / attic and seems like it would be a better idea to vent out an exterior wall. Done.

A Brew shed would be the much preferred solution, but my HOA would not be thrilled. (Maybe I can convince them to donate a common area for a few HBs?)

Interesting! I had been planning on doing a plywood floor with linoleum for spills (and ease of construction), but I will have to look into the concrete. Either way, I think a floor drain would be put to more use than I would like to admit.

Also, I appreciate the thoughts on the propane. Short of getting a pet canary to keep down there with me, hopefully I will arrive at a safe option through the next month or so while I build! I do have NG, so that would be 1 way, and then the obvious, electric (for some reason I am still resistant...maybe I will come around!). Either way... a BIG fan is in order to suck out that steam!

Breaker panels are not that expensive. I would get a 100a 20 circuit main lug panel.

Run a 50a feed from your main panel to a 50a gfi spa panel, then feed the 20 circuit panel from the spa panel. Now your entire brewery is gfi protected and you should have plenty of power for at least a 10 gallon electric system. Any outlets you will need can be set up when you get your electric system planned. It will be especially easy if you keep your panel surface mounted so no wires need to be fished through walls.

 

[bruin_ale]

It will be especially easy if you keep your panel surface mounted so no wires need to be fished through walls.

He doesn't have walls yet.. so no worries there.

 

[HItransplant]

awww man.. I got all excited. I thought it was ACTUALLY in a crawlspace... you know, like one you have to crawl in.

looks cool anyway.. wish I had a space like that. 'cept Id use it for cellaring and fermentation.

good luck.

subscribed.

 

[lschiavo]

He doesn't have walls yet.. so no worries there.

Right. But he did mention finishing the walls with plywood. Just saying surface mount might be easier.

 

[The_Dog_42]

Based on your dimensions, it looks like you can probably run a little cleaner install if you rearrange a bit. Right now when you enter from the workshop you will have ~4' of space to your shelving from the face of one of the columns. Assuming your doors swing the way you show, this would be enough space to actually brew in.

If you have a subfloor, and can run the water lines under it, you can set your sink up with a swing arm, and may be able to even fill your kettles.

Also, you won't have to move as far for the beer in the fridge then. The only other thing I would add would be some sort of piping from the kettles under the floor to the fermentation area. That way, if you add a chamber, you can also add a pump and pump directly from your kettles into the carboy / conical in the chamber. YAY FOR LAZINESS!

 

[The_Dog_42]

One other thing as well, with the installation of a sink, I think you'll need to identify and tie into the vent stack as well. Someone with more plumbing knowledge than me would be better to ask, but it is something to be considered.

 

[dixon52]

One other thing as well, with the installation of a sink, I think you'll need to identify and tie into the vent stack as well. Someone with more plumbing knowledge than me would be better to ask, but it is something to be considered.

Good point - I will double check that.

Based on your dimensions, it looks like you can probably run a little cleaner install if you rearrange a bit. Right now when you enter from the workshop you will have ~4' of space to your shelving from the face of one of the columns. Assuming your doors swing the way you show, this would be enough space to actually brew in.

If you have a subfloor, and can run the water lines under it, you can set your sink up with a swing arm, and may be able to even fill your kettles.

Also, you won't have to move as far for the beer in the fridge then. The only other thing I would add would be some sort of piping from the kettles under the floor to the fermentation area. That way, if you add a chamber, you can also add a pump and pump directly from your kettles into the carboy / conical in the chamber. YAY FOR LAZINESS!

Fun layout ideas. I like the improved design with 1 downside. The center wall that sticks out (red in your pic) is the base of my chimney; so it is solid brick, with no way to vent through it, unless I went around it. I think I would like the vent to go straight out, which may keep the kettles against a different wall. As for the plumbing ideas, I am with you! Laziness to you looks like a time saver (and back saver) for me! I will be installing water above the kettles somehow so they can be filled directly. Also, I will be adding in a spigot or 2 on the wall to have a little flexibilty. As for the plumbing straight to the fermenter- wow. Now we are really in the big time! I will have to think about that one. I like the premise, but I also like being able to see the tubing, so I may just run a hose above the floor when I need to transfer.

Other fun ideas I have come up with are installing a permanent air compressor system (I am also building a shop through this project too... that is what you would walk through to get to the brewery) so that I can blow out tubing/ strainers to make sure they are dry before putting them away.

Anyone have other fun "time savers" that they can't live without now? :fro: