craftbeerpi + 50amp control panel

[harry-wang]

I'm novice when it comes to electrical stuff, but i can follow instructions well .
My thoughts are to make a control panel for a 30 gallon H.E.R.M.S. I believe I want it 50a so I can heat two kettles at once or double batch. Ive scoured the internet searching for resources. the best I can find is theelectricbrewery.com but nothing showing how to tie craftbeerpi to a 50a setup. I would love any input/suggestions or a guide showing me what to buy and how to wire it.

 

[d3track]

There’s a bit to sort out, like how many pumps, AC/DC for them, fans, lights, flow meters, etc.

I know you’re planning on CBPi, but BruControl has some great info and documentation as well.

And if you can give your requirements, I’m sure you’ll get plenty of help.

 

[harry-wang]

I'm not set on cbp however I do have the raspberrypi and shield.

Pumps: x2
Heating element: x2
Fans: Not sure
Lights: I would like to know when everything is running
Switches: pumps/elements off, emergency shut off switch
Sensors: 3 temperature.

 

[dbayub]

I have a 50a system run by Strangebrew Elsinore. Not really any different, still run by a Raspberry pi. Just has a beefed-up contactor, heat sync, wiring, GFCI, etc.

 

[harry-wang]

I've looked into that. The biggest problem is he discontinued selling them for now.

 

[dbayub]

I've looked into that. The biggest problem is he discontinued selling them for now.

Strangebrew is just the software, and it is opensource. You're thinking of Hosehead, which used SBE.

If you build your own, you end up with the same functionality.

 

[harry-wang]

Does anyone have the parts list/wiring diagram for hosehead 50amp build?

 

[augiedoggy]

I Cant help you but I have built a couple Brucontrol panels now and those can be built using everything you have but your pi which can be used for taplist.io or raspberry pints if you have a keg/tap setup...

Brucontrol only required an arduino like a mega which can be found for about $12 along with all the same relay boards and hardware that you would need for CBPI.. the difference is that you need windows 7 or higher computer to interface with it which sounds like more cost but any old computer is powerful enough and the results are more stable then the Pi where your likely be fighting corrupt images on the SD cards. There is also much more support from both here and Brundog on brucontrol.com .... You may want to just check out the website which has the manual as well as examples of hardware and wiring diagrams which what I think your looking for with CBPI I have no experience with CBPI but it seems that brucontrol is way more versatile I use it to control multiple brewery setups and the same software can control multiple panels at once, for example I run my 120a 3bbl brewpub hot side panel off it and at the same time its networked to my fermenter panel in the basement which controls my chiller and heat for my 4 conicals.. it even works with my tilt device and shows the gravity in the fermenter graph. you can also write script if you want to get into automating things.

 

[golfindia]

The Pi corrupt SD card thing is a non issue. Unfortunately it just keeps getting parroted.... I've been using the same SBE installation for several years with no problems. I've been using CBPi on a fermenter for a long time. I have a ham radio Pi DMR hotspot that's been running continuously for years. I have some Pi media servers that runs continuously.

Don't run a display directly from the SBE or CBPi brewing computer. Access it over the network (as intended). The display taxes the CPU unnecessarily. Also, power it down correctly every time.....

I might have uploaded a wiring diagram of boxes I've made a while back, can't find it now. Parts - 3v optoisolated relays, ssrs, a contactor, some DS18B20 temp probes, a resistor, a 5v PS, a heat sink.... Making a Pi brew controller is cheaper and easier than making a PID box, I don't know why more people don't do it.

Windows has more drawbacks than linux in this application, primarily cost and complexity. If money is no object, you run a commercial operation, and you have extra PCs and Windows OS licenses to burn, brucontrol might be for you.

CBPi and SBE are free and open source. If you have complaints about support, ask for your money back. ;^)

 

[augiedoggy]

If you look at the hosehead threads you will find members who have actually had the system crash and needed the cards reimaged "parroting" this so... and ive had to reflash sd card on my pis a couple times now even though they are only running taplist.io scripts.

heres some quotes of the parroting I've just found here with a quick search and theres tons more if you google pi corrupt sd card..

They seem to be first hand experiences for the most part. I will say most of the crashes appear to happen when the power to the unit is disturbed without proper shutdown which coincidently would happen any time the os locks up for other reasons.

I've never had a hardware issue with a pi - and I've got at least a dozen of them (A new PI zero-w sits here ready to be played with)

I've all sorts of issues with software freezing up.

I have an issue with my Brewpi once or twice a year with the SD corrupting or failing. (I have an image I can rewrite to a new sd card and be running within minutes)

I've never had issues with hardware on the PID's except for a loose connection on an element, which could happen to a pi.

If I were to upgrade from PID's, I'd do something like a BCS

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I've had my brewpi controlling a chamber for at least three years and have replaced the SD card 4 times.

SD Cards have a finite number of write cycles they can take. (Somewhere around 10,000 times IIRC)

Pi's run on Linux and have a swap file that is constantly being written to and read on the SD card.

I assert that once the card has been written too many times it gets unstable and the Pi crashes. On the Brewpi, this isn't a big deal, even in the middle of a fermentation. The Arduino takes over and you still have control of temperatures. When the Pi dies, you loose web server ability and temperature step capability, but you don't loose a batch. (This happened to me on my latest batch)

The Pi crashing in the middle of a brew day, if you're not ready to fix it quickly, could result in a bad day.

Each to their own - I'll stick with PID's

The SD card was corrupted; I got sent a link by another user to a pre-configured hosehead image, reflashed, and installed (he thankfully included instructions on which screws to undo) the new SD card and got it working again. Thankfully, the new image also included other files (namely the hoseheadbackup folder) missing from the one I had purchased.

Yeah I emailed him a couple of days ago and haven't heard anything back. I'm not under warranty, but my RaspberryPi OS install has clearly poopy the bed, so I'm sure I can get it back working eventually, but this is going to be quite a pain to do, so it would've been really nice if he had some easy restoration process / guide.

Do you by chance still have that link or a copy of it?

A friend bought a hosehead last year on my recommendation and has had nothing but issues, and now finally what he believes is a bad install. (files missing).

Corey, like with most, has stopped responding.

I know this thread is daunting, but it has been covered. As well as on the official BrewPi forum. The arduino is much more stable than the Raspberry Pi and will continue to control the chamber, even if the Pi crashes or freezes up. If you are interested in eliminating the arduino, you would want to use the Brewpiless branch that @pocketmon created.

Edit: Actually, I think BrewPiLess was created to run completely on an ESP8266, without the Pi or the Arduino. But i believe there is a Pi only version somewhere.

Donnie,

thanks for the quick reply. I can confirm that the RaspberryPi is not stable although I do not have any experience with the arduino.
But it makes sense now for me!

Regards,

Wim DM

Yep, that. It’s tough to kill the Arduino. The Pi, not so tough.

Not what you want to hear, but I've never successfully resurrected an SD card that refused to boot to the desktop.
I've always had to either restore the card from a backup image (most of the time) or clone it from another RPi (the other times)...

Sorry...

I had that same thing about a month ago. You have a borked SD card. Time to find out if your back up process is solid...

I should have been a bit clearer. My SD card was fine, it was just the files that were corrupted. The Pi doesn't like having the power cut without properly shutting down. Just reformat the card and restore from a backup. It shouldn't take more than the amount of time to write an SD card image from your computer. Easy peasy.

I'm willing to bet your reset procedure involved pulling the power and plugging it back in, which will inevitably corrupt the SD card. As @CadiBrewer mentioned, a proper shutdown command should always be used.

Yeah I get that. But I only have done this once and that was in response to brewpi hanging.

I can't recall the countless times I have hard reset windows over the years. never have I had a file system failure.

A Windows OS running on a HDD is a far cry from Raspbian running on an SD card. I'm guilty of hard resets on both systems. Sometimes it is unavoidable. But, as you've found out with the Pi, once is all it takes.

A corrupted SD card is one of the reasons I moved my BrewPi server over to an old laptop running Debian Wheezy.

 

[augiedoggy]

and of course theres articles like this to try to address that "non issue"

https://reprage.com/post/how-to-improve-the-stability-of-a-raspberry-pi

https://ownyourbits.com/2019/02/02/whats-wrong-with-the-raspberry-pi/

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=127512

 

[golfindia]

LOL meaningless drivel, but thanks.

Here are some windows complaints for good measure

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...ery-much/d0efdd45-1fca-4c74-b0cb-cc4d7669ae7e

You forgot to cutand paste all the times you repeated this nonsense.

You're a staunch brucontrol marketing force no doubt. ;^)

 

[augiedoggy]

LOL meaningless drivel, but thanks.

Here are some windows complaints for good measure

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...ery-much/d0efdd45-1fca-4c74-b0cb-cc4d7669ae7e

You forgot to cutand paste all the times you repeated this nonsense.

You're a staunch brucontrol marketing force no doubt. ;^)

Yeah I am just suggesting what im using like I do with everything I use and found worth recommending.. just like I do with mypin pids or the tan dc pumps.. I repeat it because im replying to different people and different questions.. I could honestly say the same of you and your quest to defend the raspberry pi against all who have complained of issues. your comments popped up over and over following a lot those comments.. In any case I made my point and I think readers can make thier own minds up, im going to refrain this time around from responding further to your typical personal attacks to defer from the subject.

 

[golfindia]

Nothing personal. But thanks for elucidating the difference here, which is the fact that I'm not plugging anything.

The single solution to every perceived or real problem with any computerized brewing controller is not just "buy brewcontrol".

 

[augiedoggy]

Nothing personal. But thanks for elucidating the difference here, which is the fact that I'm not plugging anything.

The single solution to every perceived or real problem with any computerized brewing controller is not just "buy brewcontrol".

Ok well you might want to correct these folks for both saying and doing the exact same thing as I did today here..

Hosehead Brewery

 

[harry-wang]

As the brucontrol visually looks great the price tag for the software seems steep for me, I'm trying to do this on a budget. I would also need to purchase a laptop which i don't have.

 

[augiedoggy]

As the brucontrol visually looks great the price tag for the software seems steep for me, I'm trying to do this on a budget. I would also need to purchase a laptop which i don't have.

how were you planning on using it with CBPI? you need a monitor and keyboard right?
I bought a refubished windows 10 mini pc for my touchscreen monitor which im using on my setup. something like this would work well too. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Pc-Be...971825?hash=item5d9868ed31:g:lnMAAOSw8V9d7GRO
honestly you can get a used win 10 pc for the same cost as a rasberry pi 4..

I believe the software is still around $100 for the basic version which I have at home. same functionality as the deluxe I believe except the ability to connect to devices through the network on the deluxe. basic requires a USB connection. This might have changed though since I dont use the automated features of Brucontrol like a lot of people do and I havent upgraded either of my setups in quite a while Contrary to what Golfinda thinks I really have no affiliation with it other than being a beta tester who found it useful enough to also use it at home and later my brewpub and I recommend it every chance I get as an alternative to hardware pids which easily cost more once you get into multiple element controls and such. CBpi has this same advantage of being more versatile if you want to reconfigure or upgrade down the road vs hardware pids. I would at least ask some of the folks who used both cbpi and brucontrol as there are quite a few folks that went from one to the other. It very might be that CBpi does everything you need better but more knowledge of both options can only help to not regret anything a short time later is all im saying.

 

[swimIan]

I have used both. Both are flexible and both worked well. Cbpi’s advantage is it is free. I tinkered with the coding more in Cbpi. Brucontrol and Arduino had analog abilities and Cbpi did not when I switched. I tinker less with Brucontrol scripting. Personally I am a fan of the support Brucontrol provides for a PAID product. In the end Brucontrol wins for me. Others may have different opinions.

 

[golfindia]

how were you planning on using it with CBPI? you need a monitor and keyboard right?

Wrong.

You don't need a keyboard or a monitor.

 

[doug293cz]

Wrong.

Please explain.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[LBussy]

Please explain.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

I don't run a monitor, keyboard or mouse on any of my Pi's. As a matter of fact, you don't even need it to set them up the first time. Here's an article explaining.

As far as the stability of a computer versus a controller: A computer is made to run a lot of different things. A controller is made to run one program. When that controller fails, it resets and a few seconds later it runs that one program again. The hardware surrounding the controller is all geared towards the stability of the controller, as well as resetting that controller automatically if it hangs (called a "watchdog.")

You can put many of these features on a computer, and with a small amount of time invested in a Google search you will find a good number of people who will claim to have come up with the perfect way to do so. These are academic successes, not anything that will change the industry. For one, the computer (be it a Pi or other) is more expensive than a controller. I bought my last Uno for ~$5 on AliExpress. Second, it's not just about perfecting YOUR program or YOUR work-arounds to make a computer somehow as stable as a controller. Other people's work is running on your computer all the time and they could be the source of instability.

There is a LARGE difference between using a Raspberry Pi for a brew session, versus leaving it for weeks unattended protecting your fermenting beer. The Raspberry Pi is intended to allow automation obviously which is why it has all those pins exposed. For a brew day, it's fine. You're not going to click a button while on vacation and come back to beer. You're going to be somewhere around it and it only needs to run correctly for a few hours. For something that needs to run all the time, every time, survive power outages, etc., you are best served by a controller.

And finally, if you do not believe the SD card on a Raspberry Pi is eventually going to fail, you are absolutely kidding yourself. If you are using a Pi for anything, make sure you back it up. This is NO different than your home computer. If what's on there is important (any computer) do not trust it to never fail. The Pi has a backup program that will clone the card. There are other ways too but use something. For that matter if your home computer is not backed up I suggest you do that too.

 

[augiedoggy]

The point I was trying to make may have been missed here which would be without a monitor how do you use CBpi? even when using another pcs monitor over the newtwork as an interface (same setup as brucontrol btw) you still need that pc or tablet or even if you but a small single color lcd screen its some sort of interface. My response to the op about needing a monitor was because he stated he needed to have a laptop for BC (which I assume means he drags his brewing system out and needs it to be portable and theres no pc where hes brewing.

It seems we are looking past each other here just to prove points.. im just trying to stay on topic here by weight the pros and cons in relation to what the OP actually wants to do and what he will need with either setup to accomplish this.

 

[LBussy]

I’m not trying to prove a point, just to share information. I was only looking at the last couple of posts so I apologize if I missed the context.

I own monitors. Laptops, RPi’s and controllers. Love them all.

 

[harry-wang]

So whats the cost of building a Brucontroller?

 

[golfindia]

So whats the cost of building a Brucontroller?

Bump for an answer to this......

 

[LBussy]

I think that the answer is sort of the same as asking how much it costs to brew your own beer.

 

[d3track]

The control panel build cost will be pretty even whether you go BC or CBPi, but you need the license for BC (when I did my build I broke that to a separate line item).

If you go the eBay route and scrounge a bit, you can build the controller for $200-$300.

For the interface, you can use a tablet or phone too, while I have a PC in my workshop I use, I do have a tablet there too Incase I want to control while walking around.

 

[harry-wang]

You're saying I could build a brucontrol for $300 in parts/ $100 for software/ $85 for the mini computer.

 

[golfindia]

You're saying I could build a brucontrol for $300 in parts/ $100 for software/ $85 for the mini computer.

Basic software is $119.

 

[d3track]

You're saying I could build a brucontrol for $300 in parts/ $100 for software/ $85 for the mini computer.

I’d say that’s a reasonable assumption, with the software price adjustment mentioned

 

[rfinley]

If you look at the hosehead threads you will find members who have actually had the system crash and needed the cards reimaged "parroting" this so... and ive had to reflash sd card on my pis a couple times now even though they are only running taplist.io scripts.

heres some quotes of the parroting I've just found here with a quick search and theres tons more if you google pi corrupt sd card..

They seem to be first hand experiences for the most part. I will say most of the crashes appear to happen when the power to the unit is disturbed without proper shutdown which coincidently would happen any time the os locks up for other reasons.

This fixes the SD card issues...... Converted my Brew-Pi fermentation cooler control and it has been rock solid !!

https://blog.mivia.dk/solved-sd-card-corrupted-raspberry-pi/

 

[LBussy]

This fixes the SD card issues

I've also had good luck using standard USB storage. Here is a 128GB USB 3.1 flash drive that's pretty small for $18.99 on sale.

 

[golfindia]

I’d say that’s a reasonable assumption, with the software price adjustment mentioned

My entire Pi controller cost less than $120 to build. Using this adjustment rationale, it was actually free......

 

[LBussy]

I’m not a fan one way or the other. I will point out however that the $120 for software is not so much for obtaining the software but for the support you might need. Your time is worth something, and you need to figure out what it is worth. Then you need to determine if this (or any make/buy decision) is worth it for you.

It’s a personal decision everyone needs to make for themselves.

Still, $120 is really not that much in the scheme of things. I’ve wasted more than that trying to save money.

 

[golfindia]

No doubt $120 is nominal for what they probably have to provide support for. Flashing arduino firmware is harder than imaging a Pi SD card with github.....

 

[augiedoggy]

Theres an app with instructions for flashing the arduino with a regular usb cable.. its not hard instructions are avaliable on the website to look over.
The only special hardware required over any other control solution is an arduino and a pc to use as an interface... a mega costs about $12 shipped... you can build the whole panel for far less than $300 but it really depends on how many plugs and removable connectors you want and how complex of a build it would be.

 

[GParkins]

I looked hard at Kal clones, CBPi, and BruControl when I was getting started.

All systems need an enclosure of some kind to house both the power devices like breakers, SSRs, and contactors, as well as the sensors and relays that are used on the low-voltage side of the system. Right out of the gate, there is a substantial financial commitment required to build a safe, reliable system. A UL-listed enclosure, UL-listed power equipment, DIN rail, mid-level wiring devices like terminal blocks, tray, breakers, fuses, relays, power supplies, SSRs, heat sinks, etc., etc. will get the enclosure north of $1,000 in a frightful hurry. Arguments that an automated electric brewery control panel can be built in a safe, reliable manner for $300 do not seem realistic to me.

Kal is a self-admitted semi-Luddite, and doesn't have any interest in microcontrollers or automation, and his reasons for sticking to PID controllers and mechanical switches work well for him.

The more I dug into it, the more I found the automation side appealing, so I cut Kal clones from my list. When evaluating the two remaining choices, what settled the argument was the number of posts here and on Reddit and other forums that went on and on about the various builds on GitHub for the RPi solution that were mostly howls of anguish from frustrated brewers whose RPi system had just bricked because of a problem with the code for some new feature that some unknown person had posted. It's kind of the story of open source in general. Yes, some fantastic open source stuff has been developed (Torvalds is a frickin' genius), but at the expense of a lot of very tedious debugging along the way. I wanted to brew, not debug.

I opted for BruControl for several reasons:

• Arduino hardware is stable, cheap, and plentiful
• I don't have to do any programming
• I can configure an incredible amount of capability (e.g. @Die_Beerery's rig)
• I can develop a script that will automate more than I care to think about (again, see Die_Beerery's rig)
• @BrunDog provides fantastic support
• It does NOT require a dedicated computer (I ran it for over a year on the MacBook issued by my employer)

The ability to add another microcontroller and integrate it into the BruControl environment without so much as a burp gives me the flexibility I was looking for. As my system and my skills grow, it's easy to add on without having to break budgets. Without any question, I feel like I made the right choice, even after having lived and brewed with it for almost two years.

 

[augiedoggy]

A sub $300 "safe" brewing panel is indeed very feesable.. especially considering the DC voltage stuff is not ul listed anyway nor would it need to be... all you have a a handful of contactors and relays (if you decide to even use contactors in conjunction with ssrs as most commercially sold panels actually dont so save costs and maximize profit) ssrs and wire... the connectors on the bottom of the panel are completely optional and not even useful in situations where the panel is stationary and there are plugs at the element ends..
As for the panel itself you can get a large variety used on places like ebay or even buy a $35 carlon electrical box at the home depot for $36... Keep in mind unless your sending this somewhere and paying mucho $$ for ul listing testing and certification, the panel will NOT be UL listed or have any official safety advantage over a panel using European counterparts for less $ it's just for the builder piece of mind. Other creature comfort things like din rail components are more for convenience and asthetics, also not needed for safety. A $9 dual pole non din contactor like one used in HVAC applications will perform just as well and is ul listed as well. Also a non UL but CE certified SSR from auberins or even $5 off branded "berme" from the same manufacturer (MGR) will work just as safely as a $40 Crydom. (The same cannot be said for the counterfeit foteks all over ebay though which have numerous reports of violent failures)

Will it be as "nice" as a $1000 panel? no but one of the great things about a software screen based GUI controlled system is the user experience wont suffer due to the aesthetics of the control box.