CPF - Where did all my hops go?

[Smellyglove]

I just tasted an IPA i used a CPF to fill a bottle with.

I'm ashamed. I can't give away this to friends. It tastes like it's been bottle carbonated.

I pay extreme attention o2 pickup during transfer to keg. Closed loop into a keg which has been full of star san then emptied with pressure. "No" o2 in the keg before transfer. I CPF'd it two days ago. I can't even recognize my own beer.

CPF'd it, straight to the fridge, not always capping on foam as it doesnt always foam up unless I give it one last hard push before I cap it.

I'm stunned. What on earth happened here? In the keg it was juicy as well... juice. Now its like I said, tastes like it's been bottle carbonated.

I've been CPF'ing other beers, mostly with phenols, and they are as good as I expect them to be. But this? Absolutely rubbish.

Any input?


As a final edit. I must say that i kept it in front of the oven for a few minutes, just to heat it quickly up to serving temperature, instead of fridge temperature. The malt is more pronounced, but the hops are dead.

 

[billl]

If you are leaving a headspace full of O2, that's likely your issue. The impact of O2 is much, much greater on an IPA than other styles.

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

I'm confused. What's a CPF?

 

[gromitdj]

I'm confused. What's a CPF?

I'm guessing "Counter Pressure Filler".

 

[MagicMatt]

Put it in front of the oven?!?!? I don't know about you but most fridges are set to about 35°F. By the time you take the beer out, pop the cap, and pour it into a freshly rinsed glass, the beer will be at serving temp (~40°F). No need to heat the beer lol.

 

[Smellyglove]

The beer was totally crap comparing to how it was in the keg. My guess is oxidation, which seems pretty obvious. I'm still refining my CPF-bottling technique, and after filling some more bottles I realized I should bottle them under a way higher pressure than the serving-pressure out of the keg.

 

[MagicMatt]

I'm not sure that's correct. When I bottle carbonated beer from a keg, the only way it works properly is to get the keg and bottle as close to 32°F as possible, purge the keg completely of pressure, then apply only 1-3psi (just enough to get the beer moving). The faster you push, the more CO2 will come out of solution and besides creating a mess and wasting beer you'll be undercarbed a bit. Pushing even at serving temps creates excess foam.

 

[billl]

The problem seems to be "no foam", not "excess foam".

Obviously, everyone's system is going to be slightly different, but the goal is the same. You want carbonated beer in the bottle and any O2 pushed out. The easiest way to do that for most people is to keep the keg and bottle cold and fill at a rate that leaves just enough foam to fill the headspace without creating a foaming mess. If your system is such that you have to fill very slowly to get that balance, then fill slowly. If your system is such that you have to speed it up a bit of give it a final blast to create enough foam, then do that.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm not sure that's correct. When I bottle carbonated beer from a keg, the only way it works properly is to get the keg and bottle as close to 32°F as possible, purge the keg completely of pressure, then apply only 1-3psi (just enough to get the beer moving). The faster you push, the more CO2 will come out of solution and besides creating a mess and wasting beer you'll be undercarbed a bit. Pushing even at serving temps creates excess foam.

This sounds like you're using a beer-gun?

With higher pressure in the bottle, the co2 will not come out of solution as easy. It would rather go into solution than coming out of it, due to the higher "atmospheric" pressure of co2 inside the bottle, given an even flow and not shaking things up. As far as I understand it at least.

 

[MagicMatt]

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by beer gun, but I'm not using the Blichmann gun. I'm using a homemade counter-pressure bottle filler.

The pressure applied to the bottle should be almost the same as the line pressure pushing the beer. If the pressure you're applying to the bottle is greater than that of the pressure pushing the beer, it's not going to "go into solution" like you mentioned; instead the beer will not flow into the bottle at all due to the higher applied pressure. Otherwise that would be like the liquid flowing up-hill. With a CPBF, you can indeed use your serving pressure to fill bottles, but I have not had great success with that.

The easiest, most fool-proof method is what I described previously. The pressure you use to push the beer has no role other than pushing the beer. No need to use more pressure than is necessary. All of the pressure applied to the bottle is lost as soon as you remove the filler. The idea is to flush the bottle to scrub as much O2 as possible and then maintain a steady stream of CO2 while it's filling.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by beer gun, but I'm not using the Blichmann gun. I'm using a homemade counter-pressure bottle filler.

The pressure applied to the bottle should be almost the same as the line pressure pushing the beer. If the pressure you're applying to the bottle is greater than that of the pressure pushing the beer, it's not going to "go into solution" like you mentioned; instead the beer will not flow into the bottle at all due to the higher applied pressure. Otherwise that would be like the liquid flowing up-hill. With a CPBF, you can indeed use your serving pressure to fill bottles, but I have not had great success with that.

The easiest, most fool-proof method is what I described previously. The pressure you use to push the beer has no role other than pushing the beer. No need to use more pressure than is necessary. All of the pressure applied to the bottle is lost as soon as you remove the filler. The idea is to flush the bottle to scrub as much O2 as possible and then maintain a steady stream of CO2 while it's filling.

I mean bumping the pressure in both the keg, and bottle. So I'm operating at a higher pressure than the carbonation pressure. This way I can fill bottles faster, and with less foaming while the bottle fills up, it will also naturally give a nice push of foam out of the neck when i remove the filler.

I don't see why you would dump the pressure when using a CPF. If you'd use a beer-gun style filler I'd understand, but not with a CPF. If you lower the pressure then co2 will come out of solution (would alsmost be like opening a bottle), and that should give more foaming while filling.

 

[slym2none]

"It tastes like it was bottle carbonated."

So, good? I re-ferment in bottles for all my beers. None have any sort of off-flavour. So, I don't have any idea of what you're talking about.

Rude.

 

[Smellyglove]

Didn't mean to be rude. But the freshness in kegs vs bottlecarbed is pretty big, especially when it comes to hoppy beers because of oxygen and temperature. And the sugar for carbonation does also give a taste I dont like. Its possible to add speise though, but you still have to have it warm for carbonation to occur.

My friends who have tasted my beers have tasted them from keg at my house, so the bottled version would be sort of lacking.

 

[slym2none]

The sugar is eaten for carbing. It doesn't add any taste.

The small amount of headspace has a little oxygen it it yes -that gets used by the yeast in the refermentation.

I reject those two arguments, sorry.

 

[Smellyglove]

Fine. But I don't, that's why I wrote what I wrote.

 

[theowlman16]

Real beer IS bottle carbonated.

 

[rawlus]

i dont know the defect description "takes like it is bottle carbonated"... there are a variety of beers bottle carbonated so maybe you meant instead "all hop aroma is gone" or "beer tastes oxidized" or something along those lines?

not capping on foam could be an issue with your process, introducing a bit of hesdspace O2 that is hurting the hop aromas. But it is hard to diagnose based upon what you've written - perhaps start with what you expected to happen - what kind of beer is this? was it heavily dry hopped? what are the specific things missing when you taste the keg against the bottle?

 

[Smellyglove]

Yeah I'm guessing bad bottling technique. Well it was dull, not as clean, and hops were just faded, and didn't taste as fresh like my kegged IPAs do. Just one day after.

 

[slym2none]

Just don't blame your poor practices on a widely-cast aspersion about bottling. That's all I'm saying.

 

[woo_pig]

Man takes his bottling seriously.

 

[Smellyglove]

Just don't blame your poor practices on a widely-cast aspersion about bottling. That's all I'm saying.

When I started kegging, I realized the difference when it comes to hoppy beers. Homebrewers are not a big beer-factory like Sierra Nevada or something like that. The difference between being able to cut out the temperature, heat, and sugar is very noticable. I'm not trying to be an a-hole, it's just (to me at least) an accurate description of what I tasted. It tasted like my IPA's when I bottle carbonated them. I've purged bottles, carbonating warm for a shorter time, carbonating cool for a longer time etc, I've tried. But now I can say that I will not bottle carbonate hoppy beers, because I love the freshness of a kegged one which has not seen any warmer temperatures, oxygen or sugar. One of my favorite styles has for years been IPA's, and I've brewed a lot of hoppy beers and dialing in my procedure to make me being able to drink them as tasty as I possibly can, I've experimented a lot to preserve the hoppiness, and I found my procedure, so it was quite dissapointing that I couldn't share my vision of the beer, with my friends through a bottle.

And, I'm in fact blaming my poor CPF practice.

 

[billl]

"and, I'm in fact blaming my poor CPF practice."

Good, because that is the easy thing to fix. Cap on foam. That should get rid of 99% of your problem. The only way hops degrade in a day is if they are exposed to O2.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm not sure what you mean specifically by beer gun, but I'm not using the Blichmann gun. I'm using a homemade counter-pressure bottle filler.

The pressure applied to the bottle should be almost the same as the line pressure pushing the beer. If the pressure you're applying to the bottle is greater than that of the pressure pushing the beer, it's not going to "go into solution" like you mentioned; instead the beer will not flow into the bottle at all due to the higher applied pressure. Otherwise that would be like the liquid flowing up-hill. With a CPBF, you can indeed use your serving pressure to fill bottles, but I have not had great success with that.

The easiest, most fool-proof method is what I described previously. The pressure you use to push the beer has no role other than pushing the beer. No need to use more pressure than is necessary. All of the pressure applied to the bottle is lost as soon as you remove the filler. The idea is to flush the bottle to scrub as much O2 as possible and then maintain a steady stream of CO2 while it's filling.

Just an update. I just tried CPF'ing with 2.5bar of pressure. Man that went fast! and foam free! No foam during filling what so ever, and it rose nicely for me to cap on. But, this was just one bottle, the keg got empty..

 

[Smellyglove]

The sugar is eaten for carbing. It doesn't add any taste.

The small amount of headspace has a little oxygen it it yes -that gets used by the yeast in the refermentation.

I reject those two arguments, sorry.

I'm pulling this one up.

I've always meant that sugar (for carbonation) adds a peculiar taste. I've described it as "dull" and "round". A taste which takes the edge of a good beer. But I have never been able to coin it

Today my GF got served a beer which was primed with sugar. She said "this tastes bad, it tastes like fat". We've been mostly drinking either force carbed beers or speised beers from my homebrewery, and the occasional big brewery-beer.

I did one split batch with sugar and speise. She got one which was primed with sugar. When she said it tastes like "fat" (umami) the pieces fell into place. I've never been able to coin that taste, but she did it the second she tasted the beer, and I must say I agree, but I have never been able to describe the taste very good.

 

[BeerAddikt]

I'm pulling this one up.

I've always meant that sugar (for carbonation) adds a peculiar taste. I've described it as "dull" and "round". A taste which takes the edge of a good beer. But I have never been able to coin it

Today my GF got served a beer which was primed with sugar. She said "this tastes bad, it tastes like fat". We've been mostly drinking either force carbed beers or speised beers from my homebrewery, and the occasional big brewery-beer.

I did one split batch with sugar and speise. She got one which was primed with sugar. When she said it tastes like "fat" (umami) the pieces fell into place. I've never been able to coin that taste, but she did it the second she tasted the beer, and I must say I agree, but I have never been able to describe the taste very good.

Not to be rude or anything but have you ever considered that your bottlling/carbing with sugar technique is a bit lacking?

I've never heard anyone say anything remotely close to what you're describing. Oxygenated, yes and that can be partially cured with proper technique...but tastes like fat? That's a new one to me.

 

[Smellyglove]

Not to be rude or anything but have you ever considered that your bottlling/carbing with sugar technique is a bit lacking?

I've never heard anyone say anything remotely close to what you're describing. Oxygenated, yes and that can be partially cured with proper technique...but tastes like fat? That's a new one to me.

I've done triagular tests on myself. Same batch, same ****, just a split at priming. I can pick out the sugar carbed beers every time. Even though you haven't heard about it, the difference is real, i just might be describing it poorly. I use a dosage syringe and add the sugar solution to the beer. I don't see how that can be lacking. The beers primes with speise are absolutely fine, done with the same technique.

 

[MagicMatt]

Could it be the type of sugar you are using? I've also never heard of umami describe as tasting like "fat", so not sure what you mean there.

I'm actually about to rack a batch right now. I can CPBF a couple of bottles and naturally carb a couple and do some blind taste tests with my beer buddies. I'll report back, but I'm not holding my breath that there's going to be much of a difference.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

The sugar is eaten for carbing. It doesn't add any taste.

The small amount of headspace has a little oxygen it it yes -that gets used by the yeast in the refermentation.

I reject those two arguments, sorry.

I would not bottle carb a NEIPA ever. The effect of O2 exposure combined with sitting at warmer temps so the yeast can work wreaks havoc on those beers. The issues are well documented here.

Some beers do fine bottle carbing. Some styles do not.

 

[Kjay]

This is an awesome argument. Me being a NEIPA nut I concur with force carbing and drinking the beer young. As far as bottling for buddies or taking up a couple of growlers to the cottage I use a blichmann beer gun for this and it generally works well, and is similar to if you showed up to your favourite craft brewery with growler and had them fill from the teet. With that being said it's not meant to sit in someone's fridge for a week it's meant to be consumed right away. I know nothing about this CPF craziness and have had success naturally carbing beers in the past just not IPA's. By no means do I go as far as dosing each bottle with a syringe.

Anyway wish I had popcorn for this but I got a beer and just put ten gallons in the fermenter (NEIPA, will be force carbed).Love coming on here after a brewday to relax after cleaning up the brewery.

 

[Smellyglove]

Could it be the type of sugar you are using? I've also never heard of umami describe as tasting like "fat", so not sure what you mean there.

I'm actually about to rack a batch right now. I can CPBF a couple of bottles and naturally carb a couple and do some blind taste tests with my beer buddies. I'll report back, but I'm not holding my breath that there's going to be much of a difference.

Do a pretty clean cold-fermented beer. Like a german pilsner, or vienna, or a czech or helles or such. If you get "enough" oxygen into it you'll have tro try again without the oxygen though, to taste that difference obviously clear enough. I haven't done one of those kind of beers myself and splitted at priming though, But If I can pick up the taste in Hefes and IPA's I bet it would be easier in a clean lager. And carb it at room temp. I bet you'd be able to taste the difference if your procedure is up to par.
Bye bye cripsness and that pretty pure malt-taste. If you have a pretty clean no-o2-pickup procedure you'll be able to pick out the nuances in a beer. I'm working on nuances.

 

[Smellyglove]

I would not bottle carb a NEIPA ever. The effect of O2 exposure combined with sitting at warmer temps so the yeast can work wreaks havoc on those beers. The issues are well documented here.

Some beers do fine bottle carbing. Some styles do not.

You problably read the entire thread with my points mirroring yours. I bet that most of the people who "argue" that bottle carbing a hoppy beer is fine, haven't tried a homebrewed low o2 pickup hoppy beer from a fresh keg where the beer has been held cold for the entire time after packaging. If they've had such beers, I guess they just haven't thought much about why it tastes like it does and just continued to bottle carb, and maybe adding more hops to get to the goal, which actually ruins the beer more since more hops = more stuff that can go bad.

I might have strong opinions, but I'm just sharing my harvested experiences with others. If they don't want to listen to me it's fine, it's not my beer.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

This is an awesome argument. Me being a NEIPA nut I concur with force carbing and drinking the beer young. As far as bottling for buddies or taking up a couple of growlers to the cottage I use a blichmann beer gun for this and it generally works well, and is similar to if you showed up to your favourite craft brewery with growler and had them fill from the teet. With that being said it's not meant to sit in someone's fridge for a week it's meant to be consumed right away. I know nothing about this CPF craziness and have had success naturally carbing beers in the past just not IPA's. By no means do I go as far as dosing each bottle with a syringe.

Anyway wish I had popcorn for this but I got a beer and just put ten gallons in the fermenter (NEIPA, will be force carbed).Love coming on here after a brewday to relax after cleaning up the brewery.

The "CPF craziness" is actually a pretty cool way to fill bottles from a keg. There's a sticky somewhere here and it's what I do. Connect a straight portion of racking cane to a plastic picnic tap. Slide a bottle opening sized stopper on the length of cane so that it seals the bottle as the cane just reaches the bottom of the bottle. Then connect it to a keg, run about 2 psi CO2.

To fill, open the valve on the picnic tap and the beer will flow until the pressure matches the pressure in the bottle. Then just pinch the stopper to let out some pressure to control the fill speed. It keeps the beer in the bottle under pressure as it's filled.

When I do it, I set the cap on top, hold it with my thumb and invert the bottle briefly. Turn it back upright, it foams enough to raise the cap. Then seal the cap.

I've had great results and took best of show at a local home brew competition with bottles of NEIPA filled that way. They were, of course, fresh (filled the night before from a week old keg).

 

[BeerAddikt]

I bet that most of the people who "argue" that bottle carbing a hoppy beer is fine, haven't tried a homebrewed low o2 pickup hoppy beer from a fresh keg where the beer has been held cold for the entire time after packaging.

I find this argument asinine. When people bottle they tend to sample their beer straight from the fermenter before it picks up any O2. I ALWAYS sample my beer when bottling and drink the hydro sample as well. This literally happens seconds after the fermenter is opened and introduced to oxygen. To assume that those that bottle carb don't know what a fresh hopped beer tastes like and don't detect the deterioration of hop flavors is short sighted and pompous.

I get it...you're a fan of kegging. But your argument is way off. Those that bottle carb do it out of necessity. No need to belittle us.

 

[kh54s10]

I haven't done a NEIPA, but I bottle and keg. I have not done a side by side taste test, but my bottled beers are every bit as good as a beer from the keg. I have bottled from the keg with a faucet adapter tube, not a CPF. I have given those away and have never tasted one, but my friends give very praise for those beers.

I thing it is individual process that is the problem not bottle conditioning versus kegging as a whole.

 

[Smellyglove]

I haven't done a NEIPA, but I bottle and keg. I have not done a side by side taste test, but my bottled beers are every bit as good as a beer from the keg. I have bottled from the keg with a faucet adapter tube, not a CPF. I have given those away and have never tasted one, but my friends give very praise for those beers.

I thing it is individual process that is the problem not bottle conditioning versus kegging as a whole.

the point is bottle carbing, bottling from a keg is almost as good as serving from the keg.

 

[Smellyglove]

I find this argument asinine. When people bottle they tend to sample their beer straight from the fermenter before it picks up any O2. I ALWAYS sample my beer when bottling and drink the hydro sample as well. This literally happens seconds after the fermenter is opened and introduced to oxygen. To assume that those that bottle carb don't know what a fresh hopped beer tastes like and don't detect the deterioration of hop flavors is short sighted and pompous.

I get it...you're a fan of kegging. But your argument is way off. Those that bottle carb do it out of necessity. No need to belittle us.

I think you didn't account for that I said "argue" that bottle carbing is on par with kegging. I do both, but for different kinds of beer.

My point was if you have an IPA, same recipe same everything, except for process, the bottle carbed version will never be as good as the kegged version.

 

[doug293cz]

Ok folks, you can disagree with and discuss different opinions, but you cannot demean another for their opinion.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[slym2none]

 

[65C]

It's poss the reason I no longer brew NEIPA, hoppy beers etc. - because I bottle.

The results are almost always underwhelming.

But my Porters absolutely smash it - so I brew darks / old ale type recipes with Maris Otter or really light fizzy Pils.

When I drink hop forward pints in great pubs like Smithfield Tavern I do often think I could never recreate this taste in a bottle.

 

[jwalk4]

It's poss the reason I no longer brew NEIPA, hoppy beers etc. - because I bottle.

The results are almost always underwhelming.

But my Porters absolutely smash it - so I brew darks / old ale type recipes with Maris Otter or really light fizzy Pils.

When I drink hop forward pints in great pubs like Smithfield Tavern I do often think I could never recreate this taste in a bottle.

Naturally carbonated beers are where pro-breweries and the home brewer are on the same level playing field. By bottling and carbonating via live active yeast, you are protecting your beerfrom oxidizing carbonyls, and capturing delicious hop volatiles that would otherwise be lost to the ever increasing head space of your kegs.

Im returning to bottles for exactly these reasons.

Bell's two-hearted ale, Amsterdam's bone shaker ipa, and others that will come to mind when i think hard enough, are naturally carbed. All have great hop flavor and aromas.