couple of questions regarding attenuation

[FreeLordBrewing]

I'm trying to formulate a recipe for an Imperial Black Kölsch. I am using the beer calculus from hopville. I did some online research/searching these forums and got some ideas but with the ingredients I have placed into the recipe calculator I got the OG at 1.078 and FG down to 1.019 making a 7.9% abv (which is where abouts I'd like to be or more is ok too lol). According to hopville the attenuation is set to 75% (average among most yeasts from what I read). Is that apparent, or actual attenuation?? I'd like to get the FG down to about 1.010-1.013 but will require the yeast to be at a minimal of 83% attenuation. and at current recipe at 83% I'll have a 8.7% beer!! thats still ok with me ha ha.

I just started keg'n and love it!! my last batch (kit from brewers best with extra hops i put in it) came out amazing!! it was my first Imperial, and first keg!! my first time using a 2 day starter, and yeast nutrient. (still using extract at this point) but according to a attenuation calculator I only achieved 75% apparent and 61% actual but I did hit the both the target OG (1.085) and just a tad bit off of the FG 1.021 (target was 1.017-1.020). coming in at 8.4%

for my last batch I used mrmalty to determine pitch rate, based my starter off of that and used a yeast nutrient in the boil, and in the starter, aerated the wort by pouring it heavily/fast through a wired colander producing a TON of wort foam!! (it was so much that I had a hard time reading OG) I use starstan as it breaks down into a yeast nutrient, and fermented at about 66-68 degrees.

how do I get more alcohol, keep the body light?? my only thought would be better attenuation....I attempted to put table sugar into the beer calculator off of hopville but found my Final gravity to be higher, than that of the same amount of light DME, which from what I read seems contradictory. Any help would be appreciated. thanks in advance - Shawn

 

[dbhokie]

Well 83% is lofty. WLP550 will get there, but won't taste that much like a Kolsch I wouldn't think. If you use a Kolsch yeast you'd be doing good to hit 75-77.

Fermentability of the wort will have a direct compounded effect on Yeast Attenuation.

If you mash at a bit lower temperature you can increase the fermentability of your wort, thus giving your yeast more "sugars" to convert.

What the manufacturers list is AA

 

[cmybeer]

Are you doing all-grain or extract because I'd say if you really want to get the attenuation up there you need to mash at a really low temp and probably add some sugar in there too. Finishing out the fermentation at higher temps while rousing the yeast three times a day will help as well.

What's your recipe for an Imperial Black Kolsch by the way?

 

[dcp27]

how do I get more alcohol, keep the body light?? my only thought would be better attenuation....I attempted to put table sugar into the beer calculator off of hopville but found my Final gravity to be higher, than that of the same amount of light DME, which from what I read seems contradictory. Any help would be appreciated. thanks in advance - Shawn

most calculators do not compensate for where the sugars are coming from. it'll give you the same FG whether you use lactose (unfermentable) or sucrose (100% fermentable). I kno Briess only lists its extract as 75% fermentable, so you'll definitely need some sugar in there if thats accurate.

FWIW, I got 82% and 84% attenuation the last time I used WLP029, but those were AG (149F mash)

 

[dbhokie]

Are you doing all-grain or extract because I'd say if you really want to get the attenuation up there you need to mash at a really low temp and probably add some sugar in there too. Finishing out the fermentation at higher temps while rousing the yeast three times a day will help as well.

What's your recipe for an Imperial Black Kolsch by the way?

I calculate with a spreadsheet. First I take the grain points and get my potential points per gallon, approximate my actual using my estimated mash efficiency.

I do a separate calculation for saccharide additions, many programs will pit your efficiency (estimated) against all additions. Truly when you add a lb of Sucrose to a gallon of water, you end up with 46 points added. You get your full potential, because there is no conversion.

So a grain with a potential of 36 points, at 80% efficiency will yield an actual 28.8 points (although now you also have fermentability questions that relate to mash temperature as well to further factor in).

Whereas the sugar will be 46 period. (well 1lb/1gal).

Most programs I have found do not account for all of those variables, plus it is nice to be able to calculate out your saccharide additions separately, because most calculators will throw those into your PreBoil SG and freak you out as well.

DCP got 80+% with a Kolsch yeast so you may do it. I would add sugars for sure. Maybe try honey 3 days into fermentation. I love that result. White labs themselves though give you an AA of 74-78% with their Kolsch yeast though. I would think your wort would have to be incredibly fermentable to go beyond (like DCP said a mash in the upper 140's)
EDIT: I just realized you werent doing AG..so guess no mash considerations.

 

[duboman]

Just adding plain table sugar will raise the ABV and not add any body at all

 

[FreeLordBrewing]

I'm currently doing extract recipes.

Do I not go off hopvilles calculator when adding table sugar? I got my final gravity lower using light DME vs. table sugar based off of their calculator that is where I am confused.

my formula for an Imperial Kölsch (not set in stone yet) comes in like this
(Not sure if my home brew shop carries exact same manufactureres/companies as whats available from hopville selection box, but they do carry Brewers Best for sure and I'm sure it's close in numbers to coopers, and so on)

this is what's placed in the hopville calculator:
6.6 lbs coopers light LME
1 lbs Wheat dry extract
1 lbs Muntons plain extra light DME
1 lbs caramel/crystal malt 10L
1 lbs debittered black malt
1 lbs table sugar
8 oz. cara-pils/dextrine

Wyeast 2565 liquid Kölsch yeast. (did not check mrmalty.com yet, and haven't decided on hops yet)

based off of this recipe hopville calculator is giving me these results.

OG = 1.084 FG = 1.021 8.4% ABV

I originally had the debittered black at 1/2 lbs but only ended up with 26 SRM, and a OG of 1.081 and a ABV of 8.1%) by bumping it to 1 lbs got the SRM to 40 (final gravity did not change reguardless but ABV went up along with OG)

I wanted to get the FG down closer to 1.010-1.013 should I just deal with the 1.020??
should I replace the plain extra light DME with table sugar?? if so according to hopville I get OG 1.086 and FG 1.022

with 3 lbs of sugar and no plain extra light DME I get OG 1.095 FG 1.024.

I'm still playing with ingredients and numbers...Even thinking of replacing the coopers light LME with Pilsner LME. Like I said this isn't set in stone yet. Thanks again for all the replies.

 

[dcp27]

ditch the carapils, its in all extract already. id drop the DME for a 2nd lb of sugar to help with your attenuation.

hopville just uses an average attenuation, so your FG went up cuz your OG went up. you'll be below 1.02

 

[FreeLordBrewing]

DCP27 you mean like this??

6.6 lbs coopers light LME
2 lbs table sugar
1 lbs Wheat dry extract
1 lbs caramel/crystal malt 10L
1 lbs debittered black malt

 

[dcp27]

looks good. its more sugar than id want in a kolsch, but may be necessary with extract to get your desired FG.

 

[FreeLordBrewing]

so is it safe to say that table sugar has a 100% attenuation??

 

[duboman]

so is it safe to say that table sugar has a 100% attenuation??

Attenuation has to do with yeast, table sugar is a 100% fermentable adjunct.

 

[FreeLordBrewing]

so just for example lets say with one gallon of water I add 1 lbs of sugar.

I would end up with an OG of 1.046. With no other additions, using a liquid Kölsch yeast, the proper amount of yeast required (say per mrmalty.com with a 2 day starter) and decent aeration, and a yeast nutrient, what could i expect the final gravity to be?? 1.000??

would the yeast consume all of the sugar??

 

[duboman]

Assuming you made the simple sugar syrup with table sugar and no other fermentables, yes, the sugar is 100% fermentable but you are also assuming the yeast has 100% attenuation and that is rarely the case as stated on your package of yeast.

My assumption is that if the only sugar available to the yeast is the simple sugar and no other you would fully attenuate and consume all the sugar.

I am not a scientist so perhaps someone else may chime in if I'm wrong. but I'm pretty sure this is the case.

 

[dcp27]

With no other additions, using a liquid Kölsch yeast, the proper amount of yeast required (say per mrmalty.com with a 2 day starter) and decent aeration, and a yeast nutrient, what could i expect the final gravity to be?? 1.000??

actually, it might be even below 1.000, like 0.997

 

[Yooper]

actually, it might be even below 1.000, like 0.997

Correct. In a wine, reaching FGs of .990 are routine due to the simple sugar being fermentable and alcohol being "lighter" than water.

 

[FreeLordBrewing]

ok I see

I've been reading "the joy of home brewing" by Charlie Papazian and can't seem to get a clear answer. Also used search on here.

at what point would I add the table sugar to increase the alcohol/lower the body and get a lower FG?? at boil?? flame out?? after yeast is pitched??

why is corn sugar used more often in home brewing than table sugar??

and Why is it boiled?? the reason I ask is because I am confused.

I'm under the impression (and could be wrong) that table sugar is boiled in water and added to beer prior to bottling. The boiling in water is done to break the table sugar molecules (which are disaccharides and beer yeast can not convert easily) into two monosaccharides which the yeast can convert very easily!! is this correct??

I've also read that the only purpose for boiling the table sugar is to sanitize it. Is it boiled for both reasons?? I read on here some people putting corn sugar/table sugar into the beer (with out adding it to boiling water prior on accident) and other members on here say that it is okay and the beer will still carbonate.

are both table sugar and corn sugar disaccharides?? I'm so confused at this point my head is hurting.

 

[dcp27]

dextrose is a monosaccharide

sugar can be added at any point. if its under 2lbs i add at flameout. i do at least a portion of it while krausened if its more tho. its boiled to sanitize mainly, but yes there is some inversion.

 

[Yooper]

I very rarely use sugar in my beer, but there are a couple of great uses for it. One is making a Belgian tripel. A tripel is a very high ABV but thinner bodied beer. Using 12 pounds of liquid extract would get you to the correct OG, but it would be a "thicker" maltier beer. Using 2 pounds of corn sugar (or table sugar, or honey or Belgian candi sugar) would give the same ABV but a thinner drier crisper finish. That's commonly done in tripels.

Another example would be an IIPA (imperial IPA) for the same reasons. It needs to be quaffable and not full bodied like a big old barleywine.

Otherwise, using sugar to boost fermentables in many beers is a mistake. Most beer styles taste better as all-malt beers, so it really depends on what you're making and the goals of the beer.

Using sugar to prime the beer for carbonation is done to bottle condition beers. That small amount of sugar/honey/molasses/whatever is insignificant and doesn't affect the body or flavor of the finished beer.

The only reason I know of to boil priming solution is to sanitize it and make sure the sugar is dissolved in the liquid.

 

[duboman]

Another conversation I've been involved in discusses the concept that I there is too much dextrose in the wort at the wrong time can hinder the yeast in consuming and properly converting the more complex sugars because they attacked the simple sugars first and kind of "filled themselves" up.

Haven't really experienced this but I'm assuming that it's a possibility if one gets carried away with the simple sugar amounts.

 

[FreeLordBrewing]

dextrose is a monosaccharide

sugar can be added at any point. if its under 2lbs i add at flameout. i do at least a portion of it while krausened if its more tho. its boiled to sanitize mainly, but yes there is some inversion.

thank you!

and thanks yooper that is exactly why I will be using it for my Imperial Kölsch as most Kölschs have a lighter body but I wanted to make an "Imperial" or high alcohol content.

I currently keg so I won't be bottle conditioning/carbonating, I wanted to make sure if I used table sugar if I needed to boil the sugar in water before adding it just so the yeast could consume it, either way boiling it for sanitation purposes is good practice and I will prob take that route.

how ever here comes another questions..... if I plan on adding 1-2 lbs of sugar how much water should I boil it in to sanitize it?? seems like the addition of sugar is just a can of worms that just keeps opening up more and more questions lol