Could Someone Please Explain the Benefits of a Stir Plate?

[fosaisu]

You also mentioned you pitch at high krausen. That means you're adding a lot of extra liquid to your wort, which could effect flavor and color, among other things. That extra liquid is just really bad beer.

My concern as well. Even if it's not "bad beer" (which I question given the intentional oxygenation plus high fermentation temp) it's not going to be the type of beer I'm brewing, so why would I want to add a couple of liters of it to my brew if I could avoid it? I'd be interested to see some blind taste tests of high krausen pitch vs. ferment to completion/cold crash/decant/pitch.

Also, am I missing something or is the debate getting muddled between hand shake vs. stir plate and high krausen pitch vs. cold crash/decant? Even if pitching at high krausen produces the best tasting beer (which again seems counter-intuitive to me but I'm open to being proven wrong), couldn't you use a stir plate to get to high krausen faster than by shaking alone?

 

[fosaisu]

I never said that I did drink my starter, but I do taste and smell it for off flavors. Seems that if I am pitching a yeast that made an off starter, I am trying to make off beer as well. While it is not the best tasting drink I have ever had, I do know the difference between a yeastie, un-hopped, un-balanced beer, and a bad starter....and I refuse to pitch a bad starter

Fair enough -- I agree that it would be nuts to pitch a starter (at high krausen or after chill/decant) that smells (or tastes) like band aids. I had one of those once, and was happy to make the discovery at the starter stage rather than in my fermenter.

 

[rhys333]

I've never been able to catch it at high krausen due to doing other things, so I do what's practical for me... prepare a few days ahead, shaka-shaka, refrigerate, decant, pitch. Using a stir plate or pitching at high krausen isn't changing the quality of my beer.

 

[MX1]

I've never met a starter that even smelled remotely drinkable.

Starters....You're doing them wrong.....

Really I am just kidding, kinda.

I am at work, and do not have the info at my finger tips, and I do not get on my computer at home, so I am really not going to beable to articulate, defend, or cite my information.

So I guess, I will leave it as...

It works for me.

T

 

[MX1]

I will leave you guys with a request, please read the entire thread I linked in my first post. Page 2 and 3 is where the science gets talked.

thanks

T

 

[TheMadKing]

I will leave you guys with a request, please read the entire thread I linked in my first post. Page 2 and 3 is where the science gets talked.

thanks

T

I did read it and I have problems with the experiment.

I'm not knocking your methods man, I'm sure you make great beer.

I'm just pointing out that a stir plate is a more efficient tool for making healthier starters with less volume and more cells. If that's not a concern then by all means take your time and do it your way, and I'll do likewise. No need to bunch our britches over this, just a difference of opinion.

Op asked what the benefits were, so we told him/her. Bottom line they are more efficient + coolness factor + more resilient yeast. That's all I've got.

Cheers man, I've got my HB already down the hatch and #2 is in the gates!

 

[rhys333]

I did read it and I have problems with the experiment.

I'm not knocking your methods man, I'm sure you make great beer.

I'm just pointing out that a stir plate is a more efficient tool for making healthier starters with less volume and more cells. If that's not a concern then by all means take your time and do it your way, and I'll do likewise. No need to bunch our britches over this, just a difference of opinion.

Op asked what the benefits were, so we told him/her. Bottom line they are more efficient + coolness factor + more resilient yeast. That's all I've got.

Cheers man, I've got my HB already down the hatch and #2 is in the gates!

I agree with part of what you say here. Stir plates indeed produce more yeast cells with less volume than the shake method. I disagree that they produce more resilient yeast. The benefit of a stir plate is convenience, and of course the cool factor if that's your thing.

 

[MagicMatt]

Correct. They are just different methods of achieving the same result, albeit with differences in efficiency. It's like using a pair of scissors to cut your lawn versus using a mower; in the end the yard will look the same, but the benefits of one method over the other cannot be denied.

If you have the time and patience to clip your grass by hand, then more power to you. I'll use the mower. It doesn't, however, mean either method is wrong.

 

[rhys333]

Correct. They are just different methods of achieving the same result, albeit with differences in efficiency. It's like using a pair of scissors to cut your lawn versus using a mower; in the end the yard will look the same, but the benefits of one method over the other cannot be denied.

If you have the time and patience to clip your grass by hand, then more power to you. I'll use the mower. It doesn't, however, mean either method is wrong.

Shaking a starter once in a while is close to zero extra effort. Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be using a push mower vs a ride-on mower. And its a small lawn you're mowing too.

Now, if you're brewing a large beer or a lager, stir plates are really handy. You're mowing a half acre now instead of the back yard so there's a clear advantage to breaking out that bad boy ride-on mower.

 

[Beerswimmer]

I haven't bought/built a stir plate because I haven't needed one. I brew mostly high gravity beers that need big starters, and haven't had a problem with my method. I use a growler, or a plastic soda bottle. I pour in the starter wort, pitch the yearst, put the lid on and shake for a solid minute. Then put on an airlock and let it go for a day or 2 like a normal beer, cold crash, decant, repeat. Twice usually. Works great.

BTW, my Chimay starters are a tasty treat

 

[djonesax]

I built mine in an afternoon for the price of a stir bar. Everything else I scavenged from old computers, old projects, and the charger of a dead cell phone.

I knew I kept all this old junk for some reason.

 

[TheMadKing]

Also a decanter. I rarely pitch more than ~300ml of yeast slurry with barely any starter beer left. With super sized starters and lots of yeast, the amount will go up, though.

Also, foil and foam do not provide optimal gas transfer, to 2L starer in 2L flask does NOT produce optimal growth unless you inject air. And then, even with Fermcap, it'll probably overflow the starter. If it's not overflowing, you're probably not getting the activity and growth you think you are.

Braukaiser did a study on this, and since then, I always inject air into my starters. I've started doing any starters greater than ~1.5L in a 5L flask (still with injected air).

I'm kind of confused about what you're saying, or whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me haha. That's pretty much exactly what I said, I think .

I use my stir plate to increase gas exchange, I usually use a blowoff tube because they do overflow a bit, but I don't lose more than 2-5% of my starters. I'm not sure what you mean by inject air though.

 

[rhys333]

I just did a 4 stage starter with dregs built up from a single bottle of saison. Pretty minimal effort even without the stir plate. I now have 4 jars of the slurry harvested from the main fermentation and i'll just direct pitch those.

 

[Peruvian802]

I'm sure they are used in microbiology labs all the time, but for me - personally - I am not on a timeline, like I'm guessing they are. And, admittedly, I'm not "handy" so even if it's "simple" for some, I'd probably just get angry and frustrated. So, for now anyway, I'll just make my starter a day or two earlier tha stir plate users, swirl it when I walk by, cold crash, decant and pitch at room temp and enjoy my solid fermentations. I wish I was handier, but hey - I'm not. I can live with that.

Can you use glue?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing...o_build_a_stir_plate_plate_for_12_dollars_in/

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm kind of confused about what you're saying, or whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me haha. That's pretty much exactly what I said, I think .

I use my stir plate to increase gas exchange, I usually use a blowoff tube because they do overflow a bit, but I don't lose more than 2-5% of my starters. I'm not sure what you mean by inject air though.

I'll link Kai's experiment when i get home. Basically airlock <foil <uncovered<injected air when it comes to cell count. The foil allows some air transfer but not a lot. Once the starter consumes all available oxygen in the flask all the stirring in thr world does nothing. With large head space in the flask it's not a huge impact. When doing a 2L starter in a 2L flask the heaspace is small and the foil can't let enough through to keep up.

What i do is use an aquarium air pump (that many use for aeraring thr wort, as i did before upgrading to pure O2) and using a foam stopper (others use a bung) and tubimg i inject filtered air into the flask headspace above the starter.

I'll post a pic when i get home as well.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Not sure why the app won't let me edit, but he did uncovered as a data point, that's obviously not good for beer due to thr contamination risk.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'll link Kai's experiment when i get home. Basically airlock <foil <uncovered<injected air when it comes to cell count. The foil allows some air transfer but not a lot. Once the starter consumes all available oxygen in the flask all the stirring in thr world does nothing. With large head space in the flask it's not a huge impact. When doing a 2L starter in a 2L flask the heaspace is small and the foil can't let enough through to keep up.

What i do is use an aquarium air pump (that many use for aeraring thr wort, as i did before upgrading to pure O2) and using a foam stopper (others use a bung) and tubimg i inject filtered air into the flask headspace above the starter.

I'll post a pic when i get home as well.

gotcha, that makes sense. I'm surprised the vortex from a stir bar doesn't provide enough suction to draw fresh air in through foil or foam though.

Sorry if we are getting a bit off topic!

 

[JonM]

I grew this in about three days. I started with the dregs from one bottle of Bell's Oberon. Two steps (150 ml to 1.2 L) No way would that have worked in that amount of time without a stir plate.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1437757005.743316.jpg

 

[rhys333]

I grew this in about three days. I started with the dregs from one bottle of Bell's Oberon. Two steps (150 ml to 1.2 L) No way would that have worked in that amount of time without a stir plate.
View attachment 292077

It would have worked in that amount of time without a stir plate. It would just require more volume to do so. How did it work out for you btw? I intentionally did 4 baby step starters to reduce stress (1.020, 1.030, 1.040x2). Results were very strong yeast cells. If you're having the same success with just 2 steps, I may do that next time.

 

[Qhrumphf]

gotcha, that makes sense. I'm surprised the vortex from a stir bar doesn't provide enough suction to draw fresh air in through foil or foam though.

Sorry if we are getting a bit off topic!

Here's Kai's expirement: http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/19/access-to-air-and-its-effect-on-yeast-growth-in-starters/

And this is my set up:

 

[RLinNH]

No, you should only be leaving your starters for 24 to 48 hours no matter which method you use.

There is a given saturation level of yeast cells in a starter for the amount of dissolved oxygen, nutrients, and sugars available. A shaken starter will always produce less cells than a stir plate starter of the same volume, no matter how long you leave it because you just cant maintain the oxygen levels in the liquid, so the saturation limit is lower.

If you decide not to use a stir plate, you can achieve the same results by making a slightly larger starter (~30-60% larger depending on what you're making). That way there's more liquid for the oxygen to be dissolved in and it will be less of a limiting factor.

So, let;s say that Ron makes a starter on Weds. Evening for a Sunday morning batch. Your telling me that Ron is doing a bad thing by letting the starter sit for 4 days to do it's thing and settle out. Ron always decants his starters and pitches only the yeast. BTW, Ron is wicked Pissah Cool...

 

[MagicMatt]

So, let;s say that Ron makes a starter on Weds. Evening for a Sunday morning batch. Your telling me that Ron is doing a bad thing by letting the starter sit for 4 days to do it's thing and settle out. Ron always decants his starters and pitches only the yeast. BTW, Ron is wicked Pissah Cool...

I would say that technically you couldn't call Ron's method 'wrong', but you could definitely say it's not optimal. While sitting at room temps for 4 days shouldn't necessarily hurt anything, there's no way that a starter will settle out enough in those conditions. And actually it's more like 2 days of settling out, as the yeast are still doing their thing for the first 24-48 hours.

Even when I cold crash my starters, some take 2-3 days to fully clear. If you're decanting while it's still cloudy (which I'd have to imagine you are with only a 2 day room temp rest), then you're losing a significant amount of yeast IMO. Now this isn't a deal breaker or anything, as you could just easily overbuild the starter to account for this. But a factor nonetheless.

 

[jahdub]

Shaking a starter once in a while is close to zero extra effort. Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be using a push mower vs a ride-on mower. And its a small lawn you're mowing too.

Now, if you're brewing a large beer or a lager, stir plates are really handy. You're mowing a half acre now instead of the back yard so there's a clear advantage to breaking out that bad boy ride-on mower.

A more accurate comparison would be a push mower vs having someone just come mow your lawn for you while you're at work.

I'd rather pay $50 for a stir plate and not have to do any maintenance on my starter until it is time to crash it.

 

[rhys333]

A more accurate comparison would be a push mower vs having someone just come mow your lawn for you while you're at work.

I'd rather pay $50 for a stir plate and not have to do any maintenance on my starter until it is time to crash it.

Most folks don't wanna pay a lot though, so they'll cheap out and have some troubled loner mow the lawn who may or may not cause damage while you're away. Worse yet, burn the house down while you're sleeping.

I'd rather pay 30-50 cents (< 1 cent/beer) extra in DME than $50-100 for a commercial unit or risk an old jerry-rigged computer fan setting my house on fire. If I had to stand there swirling the starter by hand for 24 hours I would probably reconsider.

 

[MagicMatt]

Most folks don't wanna pay a lot though, so they'll cheap out and have some troubled loner mow the lawn who may or may not cause damage while you're away. Worse yet, burn the house down while you're sleeping.

I'd rather pay 30-50 cents (< 1 cent/beer) extra in DME than $50-100 for a commercial unit or risk an old jerry-rigged computer fan setting my house on fire. If I had to stand there swirling the starter by hand for 24 hours I would probably reconsider.

I don't know where you get your DME, but it's likely closer to $1/starter extra. And if you've been following along, you will have seen several posts referencing the $12 "plug-and-play" computer fan on Amazon. It's not "jerry-rigged", nor $50-100. You plug it into the wall, as intended, and use the built-in knob to control the speed, as intended.

Add up the cost of that DME over the years. Let's say 15 brews a year for just 5 years, and that's already $75 extra you've spent.

Trust me, I get where you're coming from. I once debated the cost effectiveness of getting a R/O system just for brewing. Told poeple they were nuts and that it couldn't be justified. Until I did the math, and realized I'd be saving ~$5/brew on water (since I bought distilled). Doesn't take long for the cost to recoup itself in savings. No different with the stir plate IMO. The longer you wait to get one, the more money goes down the drain. Sure it may seem negligible, but money is money. Why waste it if you don't have to.

 

[Gavin C]

So, with my recent starter debacle, I have started thinking about MAYBE getting a Stir Plate. All I know about a stir plate is that it add very much needed oxygen to the starter. Also, it speeds up the starter time. That is all I could get from people that use them in my Home Brew Club. I do my starters the JZ way and I go big. I get good results with my way, and I don't need to speed things up when it comes to starters. But, if anyone here can tell me that it also helps with the yeast being healthier, then I would take the plunge and learn a new way. What say ye?

The benefits have been explained in some detail by many a reputable source. If you place any importance on the application of sound scientific data to your brewing practices this would be the primary reason to employ the use of a stir plate and appropriately sized starters.

If you see no validity to, or see flaws in the aforementioned scientific data or see no problems with the science but place no importance on applying sound multi-sourced data to your brewing practices; these would be reasons not to make use of one.

Bad reasons not to use a starter.

• They are expensive. This is a relative term. Is $20 expensive?
• The data supporting their use is equivocal or wrong. I would disagree with this based on every piece of data I have ever read pertaining to yeast growth rates in wort.
• "I don't use one and see no need to use one." The fact that any method is used (non-stirred) is not reason to use that method.

One of the many pieces of data flogging this dead horse of a debate topic

 

[rhys333]

I don't know where you get your DME, but it's likely closer to $1/starter extra. And if you've been following along, you will have seen several posts referencing the $12 "plug-and-play" computer fan on Amazon. It's not "jerry-rigged", nor $50-100. You plug it into the wall, as intended, and use the built-in knob to control the speed, as intended.

Add up the cost of that DME over the years. Let's say 15 brews a year for just 5 years, and that's already $75 extra you've spent.

Trust me, I get where you're coming from. I once debated the cost effectiveness of getting a R/O system just for brewing. Told poeple they were nuts and that it couldn't be justified. Until I did the math, and realized I'd be saving ~$5/brew on water (since I bought distilled). Doesn't take long for the cost to recoup itself in savings. No different with the stir plate IMO. The longer you wait to get one, the more money goes down the drain. Sure it may seem negligible, but money is money. Why waste it if you don't have to.

I feel I'd be wasting money on unnecessary equipment if I were to purchase a stir plate. I'm unaware of the $12 device you mention, but its a computer fan I'm assuming by your description and not an actual stir plate. If I'm right, this requires jerry rigging as its intended purpose is something other than running 24-48 hours with 2L of liquid perched on top. I know its probably fine, but i just dont want to leave something like that going unattended.

As for DME costs, here's a comparison using the Brewers Friend Calculator:

5.5 gal 1.050 wort, 1 fresh pack @ 100B cells for simplicity. We need to get to 200B cells.
- Stir plate requires 0.75 L with 75g DME.
- Shake method requires 1L with 100g DME.

Difference is 25g, or just under 2 oz. Staying with metric, I pay $13.00/1kg (2.2lb) Muntons DME at the LHBS = 33 cents extra DME. I pay less when purchasing online. I'm also not paying power to run the stir plate.

 

[jahdub]

If you enjoy periodically shaking your starter, go for it.

I built my stir plate for the cost of a stir bar w/ spare parts. It may be ghetto, but it isn't any more dangerous than the several computers I leave running at my house or my keezer.

My time and effort is worth far more than $50 it would cost to buy a pre-built stir plate.

 

[rhys333]

If you enjoy periodically shaking your starter, go for it.

Will I go blind if I keep doing it?

 

[Yesfan]

I didn't build mine, I bought it from stirstarters.com. The debate can continue whether there is more growth with less wort, but the less time it takes to get the amount of cells makes them worth it to me.


I don't have to have a stir plate, but do I regret getting one? Absolutely not.