Cost vs. Labor - Before I do anything!

[AnOldUR]

labor shouldn't be factored in if you enjoy brewing . . .

Using that logic, if you enjoyed your job you'd work for free. All well and good until the rent comes due. :cross:

 

[monk420]

Using that logic, if you enjoyed your job you'd work for free. All well and good until the rent comes due. :cross:

If I enjoyed my job it wouldnt be called work. It's called work because you don't enjoy it

def.
la·bor
   /ˈleɪbər/ Show Spelled[ley-ber] Show IPA
–noun
1.
productive activity, esp. for the sake of economic gain.
2.
the body of persons engaged in such activity, esp. those working for wages.

 

[olllllo]

If I enjoyed my job it wouldnt be called work. It's called work because you don't enjoy it

def.
la·bor
   /ˈleɪbər/ Show Spelled[ley-ber] Show IPA
–noun
1.
productive activity, esp. for the sake of economic gain.
2.
the body of persons engaged in such activity, esp. those working for wages.

Soooo, as I understand it, you're able to make beer for economic gain (ie saving money) without labor by doing some magical incantation, called "It's a hobby"'

Why not make all labor a hobby?

 

[aa_atw]

As Mark Twain said when Tom Sawyer got all his friends to white wash the fence, "Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do. Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do." You can save considerable money if you belive that brewing is play and not work.

 

[Bacchus]

...and I thought I was the only one.

You only need an excuse if you care about what anyone else thinks. I learned to stop caring about that when I was about 30. LOL!!!

 

[BBKing]

Do you consider this Kit overkill for a newb like myself or about the best start I can get for the money?

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/everything-a-carboy-complete-brewing-package-equipment-kit-2.html

First off, I havent read through all 11+ pages of this thread. I apologize if I'm repeating what someone has already said.

Second, I LOVE Midwest Supplies.

I'm still stuck in the low world of extract brewing and I've yet to find a place that has lower prices on their products and ships for a decent price. Plus if I remember right, if your order is over 70 pounds, you only pay for 70 pounds when it comes to shipping.

I ordered 3 kits from them last week and the guy I spoke with was very knowledgeable and willing to answer questions. Some may find this annoying, but he also gave me an opinion on yeasts that I've been thinking about.

A few things I'd say about the equpiment set you're looking at:

12 oz bottles are nice to have for the higher ABV brews that you may do (in my opinion that means Mead). Otherwise, you're just asking for more work and find more space to store bottles.

Some may argue with this (it seems to be an ongoing argument with brewers in one of two camps) but the secondary fermenter isnt needed. Just use it as a primary and let it sit awhile longer.

Again, I love Midwest and HIGHLY recommend them.

Also, they do give away a lot of free/reduced price stuff when you order.

Get to brewing man. Do one batch and I guarantee you dont care if you save money or not

 

[BBKing]

Using that logic, if you enjoyed your job you'd work for free. All well and good until the rent comes due. :cross:

Jobs usually come with days off.

Days off are for brewing.

(Just messing around half pinted, I see what you're saying)

 

[Synovia]

What you're all saying is that you can't possibly fathom being a beer drinker that does NOT enjoy the process of brewing as hobby. As soon as your argument even resembles "but it's a hobby", you're not understanding that in a pure make vs. buy equation, enjoyment doesn't play into it. In order to understand the premise of make vs buy as a pure economics problem, you have to imagine the process as dreadful and boring as hard as that is to do.

Example. You probably all know that you can raise chicken/hens in the yard and eat the eggs and turn the crap into fertilizer for the garden right? What if you freaking hate the idea of having a chicken coop? You'd probably just rather go buy the eggs and fertilizer right? Why? It's a hobby.

Again, none of that is relevant ON THIS WEBSITE,.

 

[Synovia]

Sleeping and eating are basic necessities that we work for. Video games and beer aren't.

So, by your logic, it still costs me $400 to sleep, adn I could stay up all night and get that money back.


A human being can not live without leisure. If you were to work during all your free time, you'd pay for it with poor health.

 

[Dynachrome]

I am out of beer (eccept the two New Glarus - Unplugged, which aren't pallatable to me).

The economics.... Hmmn, I've so far been amazed at the quality of the home brews I've done. I bought enough materials, not including equipment, to make about 40 gallons for about $100. zthtz about what, 40*128 ~ 5000 ozs of beer. Rwich isz roughly 416 12 oz bottles.

Seriously, all the IPAs and Stouts etc. down at the grocery store run about $8~$10 per six pack. That $100 would only bring me home about 15 six packs. Even at case prices I think we're ahead.

Doesn't change the fact that I'm out of beer though....

I'm going to have to wash up some bottles though. My first All Grain is coming due.

 

[djt17]

I'm going to have to wash up some bottles though. My first All Grain is coming due.

Careful...that sounds like labor, it's going to cost you money.

 

[monk420]

Soooo, as I understand it, you're able to make beer for economic gain (ie saving money) without labor by doing some magical incantation, called "It's a hobby"'

Why not make all labor a hobby?

SO then i guess your job would be a hobby then

def.
hob·by 1 (hb)
n. pl. hob·bies
An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

 

[Bobby_M]

Again, none of that is relevant ON THIS WEBSITE,.

So every person that has ever posted here is already obsessed with brewing as a hobby? The OP is not even a homebrewer yet.

 

[oceanselv]

It is unbelievable that most people figure you can save money when you home brew your own. I buy my hops in bulk and my base grains in bulk as well. Having just spent $40 for supplies on an IPA I figure my end result will be 50 bottles of beer. This works out to be $0.80 per bottle or $4.80 per 6 pack. This cost does not include the cost of the bottle which I got for free, the cost of the water, the propane, cleaning chemicals, equipment or any consideration for my time. When you figure a 3 year amortization schedule on the equipment, a monthly batch and an all grain equipment cost of approximately $750 for a kettle, wort chiller, grain mill, 2 glass carboys, bottling equipment,cooler mash tun, burner, temperature controller and other extraneous equipment, the equipment adds proximately $20 per batch on a straight amortization. In other words the cost of my beer is actually $60 for a 5 gallon batch. At $60 per batch this works out to $1.20 per bottle and $7.20 for a 6 pack. When I can go to the store and buy a premium beer for roughly the same amount of money, I did not get into the hobby to save money on the cost of my beer. I got into the hobby because I enjoy hand crafted beers of various styles that are not available locally and I wanted to take pride in creating my own recipes, my own brewery and to be able to show off my skills to family and friends alike when I can serve them my beer and say I made this.

Don't justify your interest in the hobby as a cost savings. Get into the hobby because you enjoy hand crafted beer and want to create your own. Because once you get in the hobby it will be just like owning a boat. When you own a boat you always want a bigger boat. In home brewing you alway want that next gadget or a bigger fridge or a bigger brew pot and pretty soon you are investing not hundreds of dollars in the hobby but thousands. Brewing is a great hobby to have and you can brew as a solo pursuit or brew with a group of friends. But in the end it does become a communal hobby as you can't wait to show off your latest creation with your family and friends.

 

[h4rdluck]

I dunno I order my extract and hops online. to make a 5-6% beer costs me about 25$.

~20$ in extract (6-7 pounds)
~2$ in hops (2-4 ounces)
~1.50$ in yeast (I buy whitelabs but reuse a yeast cake 3-4 times)
~1-2$ in steeping grains or partial mash grains
~1$ in bottle caps

So that is like 12.50 a case for some amazing beer. You can get a case of budlight for 12 dollars around here...and that is what..3.5-4% and taste like watered down piss? I mean highlife often costs 3$ a sixer and thats what my oatmeal chocolate stout is costing me a 6 pack. I can't think of any 6 pack of oatmeal chocolate stout that cost 3$ or even 6$...9$ is the going price honestly...

I can make an awesome india pale ale in basically 90minutes start to finish cleaning included for 22$. I can make an imperial pale ale of about 8-9% for 35$. 35$ for two cases of an IMPERIAL PALE ALE?!? You can't find those prices anywhere. They usually cost 4-7$ for a single 22oz.

And whats even funnier is I am an extract brewer...I do the partial mash stuff but I only need 1-2 pounds of grains at a time to do that.

All grain brewers can make the same beers I make for a good 10$ cheaper at least because they can get their grains for ~1lb, whereas I am paying $2.50 pound but they need to use a little extra..

Anyway If you buy all your stuff online from the right places brewing your own beer is super cheap.

I'd buy from your LHBS for your first 5-10 brews...but after that you should have the hang of things and need to start ordering in bulk online.

Btw i live in an apartment so i can really get into all grain. And at this time i'm not quite sure i want to. I can't invest the money for the necessary equipment...and honestly I'm not to sure I want to deal with the extra work...

If anything in the future I want to get a turkey fryer kit so that I can make 10gallon extract brews (That would cut my effort put in by half because I would be getting twice the beer for basically the same amount of work...and I could brew less often)

 

[Bobby_M]

So you're paying $2.50 a pound for grains but also say that you spend ~$2 a batch on steeping/partial mash grains? Less than a pound then? For hops I assume you're buying by the pound to get them under $1 an ounce.

 

[h4rdluck]

By 2.50$ a pound for grains thats 2.50lb for extract.

yea the steeping grains are mostly roasted barley, blackpatent, chocolate malt, and crystal. Those are each about 1.50 per pound at the LHBS I may end up trying to purchase them along with my extract in the future but right now i use so little at a time. Its usually 1/3 pound to 1/2 pound of each for my stouts.

Then i buy a pound of pale malt or so to mash with oatmeal when I make my oatmeal stouts.

And yes I buy my hops from hops direct by the pound. I mean 1 oz of cascade is 2$ an oz at the lhbs. 1oz of amarillo if 3.75. I guy a 16oz of cascade for 9$ and 16oz of amarillo for 11.50$ from hops direct. Both pelleted.

You can literally save A LOT buy shopping in bulk online. And given I like making single hop india pale ales My constant supply of chinook, cascade, amarillo, and fuggles are plenty to switch between India PA, Imperial PA, American Stouts, and More english tasting Stouts...

My trappists are a bit mre expensive. I usually use a fresh vial of white labs chimay or trappist and have to buy the hops from my LHBS and then the damn candied sugar.. but I make them once in a blue moon.

 

[akramer]

As someone who is not yet a homebrewer (I've been on a work trip since I discovered this forum and I'm dying to get back home and try my hand at it) this discussion is similar to something that crops up on motorcycle forums

Every so often someone will post on motorcycle forums saying essentially "I don't have much money, can I save money commuting by motorcycle?"

The answer is usually as heated as this debate is. The cheapest way to get around is to buy a 10 year old corolla/civic. Motorcycles require more maintenance, tires are more expensive, you need to buy gear, and you really need to love it in order to not mind riding when it's cold/hot/raining/etc. However, if you both love riding *and* are willing to skimp and do things halfassed, you can manage to get it cheaper. (buy a 125cc scooter and a used helmet, don't buy good gear, things like that.) If you really love riding, you'll want nice things. Nice things cost money, and then it becomes more than just "cheap commuting", and as we all know, hobbies are expensive unless your hobby is seeing how cheaply you can do things.

It seems like this discussion is similar. If you just want to get drunk, malt liquor or cheap vodka is much less expensive than brewing beer. If you just want to drink beer, a case of decent beer at costco will get the per-bottle cost down to $1 per, without involving hours of work.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to brewing, I think I'm going to love it. I don't think I'll ever break even over what I'd pay per-bottle for deschutes or alaskan - I like gadgets too much.

 

[AirBronto]

As someone who is not yet a homebrewer (I've been on a work trip since I discovered this forum and I'm dying to get back home and try my hand at it) this discussion is similar to something that crops up on motorcycle forums

Every so often someone will post on motorcycle forums saying essentially "I don't have much money, can I save money commuting by motorcycle?"

The answer is usually as heated as this debate is. The cheapest way to get around is to buy a 10 year old corolla/civic. Motorcycles require more maintenance, tires are more expensive, you need to buy gear, and you really need to love it in order to not mind riding when it's cold/hot/raining/etc. However, if you both love riding *and* are willing to skimp and do things halfassed, you can manage to get it cheaper. (buy a 125cc scooter and a used helmet, don't buy good gear, things like that.) If you really love riding, you'll want nice things. Nice things cost money, and then it becomes more than just "cheap commuting", and as we all know, hobbies are expensive unless your hobby is seeing how cheaply you can do things.

It seems like this discussion is similar. If you just want to get drunk, malt liquor or cheap vodka is much less expensive than brewing beer. If you just want to drink beer, a case of decent beer at costco will get the per-bottle cost down to $1 per, without involving hours of work.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to brewing, I think I'm going to love it. I don't think I'll ever break even over what I'd pay per-bottle for deschutes or alaskan - I like gadgets too much.

You get it. That is the way I felt right before I started. I feel it is the only way to go into it. Passion is what makes good beer. If it wasn't, no one would do all grain as it is much easier to drop a bag a malt into your pot.

 

[monk420]

You get it. That is the way I felt right before I started. I feel it is the only way to go into it. Passion is what makes good beer. If it wasn't, no one would do all grain as it is much easier to drop a bag a malt into your pot.

So would it be far to say some ppl get into to brewing their own beer because they love doing it and some ppl get into to save money. But in the end if you like doing it your prob going to upgrade gadgets products etc. In the end it's prob. more expensive inless all you buy is 120 min dogfish head with is $160 a case . Witch is ok to do once in a while. But I still don't think you factor in labor as a cost.

 

[scorchingice]

*Moved my post to a new thread*

 

[AirBronto]

So would it be far to say some ppl get into to brewing their own beer because they love doing it and some ppl get into to save money. But in the end if you like doing it your prob going to upgrade gadgets products etc. In the end it's prob. more expensive inless all you buy is 120 min dogfish head with is $160 a case . Witch is ok to do once in a while. But I still don't think you factor in labor as a cost.

Factoring in labor as a cost is silly. If you dont enjoy the process then dont do it.

 

[Bobby_M]

That last post is self contradictory. You think factoring in labor is silly, but you agree that if you don't enjoy the process, you shouldn't brew. Well, if the labor is free, there would be no reason to discount the process as a way to get cheaper beer.

I agree with your second sentence. "because you enjoy it" is the only real reason to homebrew.

 

[monk420]

well if some one asked how much it cost to go fishing.I would add up equip/ gas/ I wouldnt count casting and realing in the line and fighting a fish. If i was fishing for 4 hours should i consider that in the cost. No because i enjoy doing it, same as brewing add up equip. and
ingredients but not the time of brewing it

 

[olllllo]

Depends. If you caught no fish in 4 hours, would it still be cheaper than buying them on the store?

Which brings another point, "present value". I'd love some blended 1, 2 and 3 year old lambic. Sure I could brew it, but you have to agree, it's cheaper to buy and more practical... Three years from now, I might want a porter.

 

[Bobby_M]

well if some one asked how much it cost to go fishing.I would add up equip/ gas/ I would count casting and realing in the line and fighting a fish. If i was fishing for 4 hours should i consider that in the cost. No because i enjoy doing it, same as brewing add up equip. and
ingredients but not the time of brewing it

What if they asked what the cheapest way to get fish was?

 

[Atvar]

Flipping burgers for $ to purchase commercial beer might be the "cheapest" way to get beer, but find me a job where I can work any 5 hours/month of my choosing with no recurring commitments.

 

[remilard]

What if they asked what the cheapest way to get fish was?

Duh, just buy a boat and then it is a sunk cost. Booyah, free fish. I bet you feel stupid paying $15/lb at Whole Foods for Salmon now punk.

 

[h4rdluck]

woah this thread went wrong.

 

[cimirie]

What if they asked what the cheapest way to get fish was?

Fly fishing from a stream in your backyard with a pole made from a branch blown off of a tree using butterflies that land on your head as bait.

Hey, you asked.