Cost of 240v 30a outlet

[Owly055]

same boat here... I have grand plans for a brewery/basement barroom with space for my projector setup.

Projector?? Is this a beer projector? I'm unfamiliar with the concept, except as regards human "reverse circulation"...... The result of too much beer too fast ;-)

H.W.

 

[h22lude]

So finding a 30A inline GFCI cord is harder than I thought. The ones I have found cost almost as much as having an electrician install the 30A GFCI breaker and outlet.

Anyone know of a good place that sells 30A inline GFCI cords? Probably need 6 feet at least.

 

[Owly055]

So finding a 30A inline GFCI cord is harder than I thought. The ones I have found cost almost as much as having an electrician install the 30A GFCI breaker and outlet.

Anyone know of a good place that sells 30A inline GFCI cords? Probably need 6 feet at least.

GFCI is wonderful technology that protects us from carelessness and stupidity......but it's a new technology. We survived very well before it came around, and I'd wager that your water heater, clothes dryer, and electric range are NOT connected to GFCI breakers unless you live in a very new house.

The grounded outlet not so many years ago was an "innovation"...... There are probably millions of homes in the US that have 3 prong outlets that aren't connected to ground even. I've seen it in numerous cases. The truth is that if you do your wiring properly, and make sure everything is grounded, chances of electrocution are extremely remote. I work with 480 and water all summer long (center pivot irrigation)... There are no electronic devices to protect you...... only a bit of common sense.

Being safe is always smart, but we can be a bit over the top and unrealistic with it. Remember that your hot water heater is 220 volt, and connected to the bathtub with copper pipes........ It uses the same kind of element, and it is NOT ground fault protected. There is no big national campaign to install ground fault protection to put a stop the the rash of bathtub deaths......... In fact, I can't recollect reading of a single such instance! Take the precautions you can............ good grounding of everything....If GFCI breakers are too expensive, you can live and brew without them......... Millions of Americans DO. My local microbrewer has no ground fault protection on anything, except in his commercial kitchen in the brew pub....... Yet he walks around in rubber boots on a concrete floor that is almost always wet, and no inspector has ever even hinted that he should change anything. Industrial workers are constantly around high voltage equipment....It's grounded, but there is no GFCI. I think perhaps we should be just a tad realistic here...... To me it's a non-issue...........If I could buy a GFCI breaker reasonably for the high voltage I use brewing....... I would........but I have never let the lack of a GFCI stop me from doing anything. Just yesterday I was working inches away from live 10KV....... carefully...... and I'm here to tell about it as always. I'll be 60 this year, and I can't credit GFCI for my longevity.

H.W.

 

[podz]

So finding a 30A inline GFCI cord is harder than I thought. The ones I have found cost almost as much as having an electrician install the 30A GFCI breaker and outlet.

Anyone know of a good place that sells 30A inline GFCI cords? Probably need 6 feet at least.

What is an inline GFCI cord?

Do you mean something that you can plug into an ungrounded outlet that has a built-in GFCI and provides an outlet into which grounded plugs can be inserted? Those can be had from my local "cheap" hardware store for 80 EUR. Plug an extension cord into them if you need it.

 

[h22lude]

What is an inline GFCI cord?

Do you mean something that you can plug into an ungrounded outlet that has a built-in GFCI and provides an outlet into which grounded plugs can be inserted? Those can be had from my local "cheap" hardware store for 80 EUR. Plug an extension cord into them if you need it.

It doesn't have to do with grounded or ungrounded plugs. It is an extension cord that has GFCI protection in it. They do sell just adapters that plug into the outlet that make it GFCI but I don't think they make 30A ones.

These are expensive. The 30A 240V GFCI inline cords I have found are up in the $200 range which is about 170EUR. The less expensive ones aren't for 30A 240V.

 

[augiedoggy]

I imagine that's a power strip with a surge protector that was mentioned above but if the 220v gfci was going to be found cheap it would be in a country where 220v is the norm like Europe (you would need to replace the outlet type with us nema versions) I did a quick search on eBay for a 220-240v 30a gfci and they start about 200 bucks.... You could always go with a homemade extension using spa panel like mentioned earlier.

 

[podz]

It doesn't have to do with grounded or ungrounded plugs. It is an extension cord that has GFCI protection in it. They do sell just adapters that plug into the outlet that make it GFCI but I don't think they make 30A ones.

These are expensive. The 30A 240V GFCI inline cords I have found are up in the $200 range which is about 170EUR. The less expensive ones aren't for 30A 240V.

So you mean a power strip with a built-in GFCI?

Just cut the cord and wire it in yourself, problem solved.

I can get one like this, but since it has 1.5mm wires then that means that it's intended for 10A loads. Run 30A through those wires and you're liable to start a fire.

http://www.taloon.com/jatkojohto-2m-4133840-vskb-3x1-5s/S-3260530/dp?openGroup=4252

30A is quite heavy - we don't allow 30A single-phase household circuits in Europe. That's why we use 3-phase household power. All of the GFCI that I can find are either 16A (2 pole) or 40A (4 pole). The 2 pole obviously being for a single phase circuit and the 4 pole for a three phase circuit.

 

[Bobby_M]

GFCI is wonderful technology that protects us from carelessness and stupidity......but it's a new technology. We survived very well before it came around, and I'd wager that your water heater, clothes dryer, and electric range are NOT connected to GFCI breakers unless you live in a very new house.

Airbags are pretty new too, but I'm not putting my wife in a car without one. Ok, pretty distant analogy. The water heater and range, and all those other appliances you mentioned are also engineered and installed by professionals, more often than not getting UL certifications. On the other hand, the devices and systems that we're using GFCI as a last resort safety net for are amateur one-off systems built following plans found on the internet. I think "apples and oranges" is a vast under exaggeration.

Take the cord you were going to run from the outlet to your controller and splice in a $50 Midwest spa panel as the inline GFCI. If you can't spend $50 for insurance, don't brew electric.

 

[podz]

Take the cord you were going to run from the outlet to your controller and splice in a $50 Midwest spa panel as the inline GFCI. If you can't spend $50 for insurance, don't brew electric.

This. And make sure the cord you are using has fat enough wires to handle 30 amps of current without catching on fire.

 

[TWAL]

Have you thought about a 10/3 extension cord?
They aren't cheap but it's less than hiring an electrician and/or re-wiring your house.
I use them for my floor sanding equipment as the sanders are 240v.
You can buy the rubber coated cords and ends at home depot or you could probably find a 100 ft cord from a flooring tools supplier for $200-250.

 

[augiedoggy]

You cant compare a hot water tank to an electric brewery... First off the copper plumbing is grounded in you house so the breaker would likely pop in your panel if the water tank element somehow shorts out. and was grounding out long before you actually touch the faucet..

In a brewery you have many electric components you handle , The whole control panel for example (often homemade at that) You also have chords with multiple plugs which may not be waterproof. and spills and boil overs into the outside of the pots and wiring boxes of the elements in much more likely to occur than with a water tank, a person is more likely to come in contact with this spilled liquid and electrified pots or spoons.. You are also using all this in a steamy environment in many cases. you need something that will sense and trip the breaker as quickly as possible.

While you could get away without it it cheap insurance and a very smart idea to use one for the same reasons they are required in the kitchen or bathroom for appliances...In a nutshell there were enough accidents and electrocution deaths to warrant their implementation and the codes requiring them....

 

[Owly055]

Airbags are pretty new too, but I'm not putting my wife in a car without one. Ok, pretty distant analogy. The water heater and range, and all those other appliances you mentioned are also engineered and installed by professionals, more often than not getting UL certifications. On the other hand, the devices and systems that we're using GFCI as a last resort safety net for are amateur one-off systems built following plans found on the internet. I think "apples and oranges" is a vast under exaggeration.

Take the cord you were going to run from the outlet to your controller and splice in a $50 Midwest spa panel as the inline GFCI. If you can't spend $50 for insurance, don't brew electric.

If you are suggesting that somehow a water heater or range is "safe" simply because it was "engineered", I suggest that you open one up and take a look........... Then ask yourself how it's "better engineered" or safer...... You will if you are even slightly intellectually honest conclude that the ONLY difference between it and your electric brew stand if properly wired is that UL sticker that they pay many thousands of dollars for. You still have live 220 inches away from a metal surface........... which of course is grounded in both cases. You have exactly the same kinds of elements. I get really tired of hearing that something is "engineered".......... The things I build are also engineered....... I just don't have a huge college debt to pay off, and a degree to hang on the wall that says I know what I'm doing. The truth is that many "engineered" products are quite inferior to things I build in my own shop.

This obsession with GFCI is absurd unless you are completely incompetent were wiring is concerned, or extremely careless. It's intended for situations where electrical appliances can be knocked into the bathtub with you or in the dish water. If your electric brew kettle is sitting next to the hot tub so you can have a drunken hot tub party while merely standing up while your "junk" swings in the wind to stir once in awhile........ You defiinitely NEED GFCI. If you brew in the garage or on the driveway like normal folks, and have things grounded properly, spending $300 for a 30 amp GFCI breaker is a total waste of money.
Personally I wire things properly, and make sure everything is properly grounded, and would never even remotely consider wasting $300 for a GFCI breaker. Cheap GFCI 120 outlets are another matter.......... They are cheap and can be connected in series so one will GFCI will protect a number of others............. Cheap insurance. Your kids don't have the knowledge and experience you do.

The comparison with air bags is extremely lame........... By the way I assume you are aware of the exploding air bag cannister issue that has caused numerous serious injuries from shrapnel and provoked a huge recall??? Or were you not paying attention? Has it ever occurred that an air bag will deploy in an otherwise minor incident and often cause serious loss of control and a total? I've seen a number of these in my area where nearly all accidents are single car, and a large percentage involve deer hits. Can YOU maintain control after being punched in the face by an explosive device, nose bloodied, glasses broken, disoriented, etc? I don't own anything with operational air bags for this reason, and frankly don't give a rat's ass what the law says about it.

H.W.

 

[podz]

It's intended for situations where electrical appliances can be knocked into the bathtub with you or in the dish water.

And even then, with the advent of PVC for sewage and PEX for supply, it's not that easy to find a path to ground.

 

[Owly055]

And even then, with the advent of PVC for sewage and PEX for supply, it's not that easy to find a path to ground.

Obviously electric water heaters, stoves, etc were around long before PVC and PEX were widely used................ and these problems did NOT exist even then. Exactly how do folks expect to get electrocuted from an electric brew stand? What is the ground path from you to ground when the equipment is grounded? The argument you presented really supports the lack of need for GFCI. If you are working with ungrounded equipment, and bare wires all over the place, standing in a pool of water with a cast iron drain pipe.... I'd be worried. Otherwise this obsession with GFCI is pretty pointless.

My shop has quite a few pieces of equipment that run on 220 single and three phase. I handle them and work with them daily and have for over 30 years. They are ALL properly grounded, and ....... Not a single one is GFCI protected.

I'm 100% in favor of safety, but things were perfectly safe long before we had GFCI. I for one wouldn't even consider spending the hundreds of dollars a GFCI breaker for 30 amps 220 costs. It amounts to simply throwing money away as far as I'm concerned. Making mountains out of molehills..............

H.W.

 

[bbohanon]

Obviously electric water heaters, stoves, etc were around long before PVC and PEX were widely used................ and these problems did NOT exist even then. Exactly how do folks expect to get electrocuted from an electric brew stand? What is the ground path from you to ground when the equipment is grounded? The argument you presented really supports the lack of need for GFCI. If you are working with ungrounded equipment, and bare wires all over the place, standing in a pool of water with a cast iron drain pipe.... I'd be worried. Otherwise this obsession with GFCI is pretty pointless.

My shop has quite a few pieces of equipment that run on 220 single and three phase. I handle them and work with them daily and have for over 30 years. They are ALL properly grounded, and ....... Not a single one is GFCI protected.

I'm 100% in favor of safety, but things were perfectly safe long before we had GFCI. I for one wouldn't even consider spending the hundreds of dollars a GFCI breaker for 30 amps 220 costs. It amounts to simply throwing money away as far as I'm concerned. Making mountains out of molehills..............

H.W.

Honestly I can see both sides of this. I remember riding in my parents station wagon in a seat that faced out the back window with zero seat belts. I also remember riding in the back bed of a truck to the store(again, no protection at all)..Did I die. Nope. Could I have? Yup. Would I do all of that now knowing what I know now safety wise? Maybe, maybe not...Depends on how badly I want to get to the store I reckon.

Putting in GFCI protection is 100% a choice..It will not give your life a guarantee against electrocution. It does give some of us the piece of mind that is can help reduce that risk in the right(or wrong depending on how you look at it) situation.

The way my luck runs, that situation is more likely to occur just because my life is a Murphys Law madcap affair.

I choose GFCI. Does not make it right or wrong. Just a choice.

 

[Owly055]

Honestly I can see both sides of this. I remember riding in my parents station wagon in a seat that faced out the back window with zero seat belts. I also remember riding in the back bed of a truck to the store(again, no protection at all)..Did I die. Nope. Could I have? Yup. Would I do all of that now knowing what I know now safety wise? Maybe, maybe not...Depends on how badly I want to get to the store I reckon.

Putting in GFCI protection is 100% a choice..It will not give your life a guarantee against electrocution. It does give some of us the piece of mind that is can help reduce that risk in the right(or wrong depending on how you look at it) situation.

The way my luck runs, that situation is more likely to occur just because my life is a Murphys Law madcap affair.

I choose GFCI. Does not make it right or wrong. Just a choice.

It is 100% a personal choice as you say.............

The cost of a project like this can easily be doubled or more by a choice like this.

My only issue with this discussion is the pressure factor suggesting that somehow it is irresponsible or dangerous NOT to have GFCI. It is in no way comparable to seat belts and air bags. Folks are killed every day in car crashes. People are not electrocuted by properly designed, wired, and grounded electrical equipment. We are not talking about a frequent occurrance........... In fact would someone please relate an instance of someone being electrocuted by an electric brew stand.

Nobody suggests that I should have GFCI on my 5 HP air compressor, or any of my welders, on my lathe, or mill......... What's the difference?


H.W.

 

[reynolds5520]

People are not electrocuted by properly designed, wired, and grounded electrical equipment.


.


Nobody suggests that I should have GFCI on my 5 HP air compressor, or any of my welders, on my lathe, or mill......... What's the difference?

While I agree with much of what H.W. is saying about properly built and maintained equipment being relatively safe even without GFCI protection, there is a difference.

Fixed location equipment like water heaters are rarely connected through a cord and plug. In theory the hard wired grounding is very reliable and thus safe without GFCI.

Equipment that is connected by cord and plug has more ways for a ground fault to occur and since brewing equipment also involves working around water, GFCI protection is prudent.

The other examples are equipment that's not normally used around water. If you're using your cord connected lathe while standing in a puddle, then GFCI would be prudent there too, even if not required.

 

[augiedoggy]

It is 100% a personal choice as you say.............

The cost of a project like this can easily be doubled or more by a choice like this.

My only issue with this discussion is the pressure factor suggesting that somehow it is irresponsible or dangerous NOT to have GFCI. It is in no way comparable to seat belts and air bags. Folks are killed every day in car crashes. People are not electrocuted by properly designed, wired, and grounded electrical equipment. We are not talking about a frequent occurrance........... In fact would someone please relate an instance of someone being electrocuted by an electric brew stand.

Nobody suggests that I should have GFCI on my 5 HP air compressor, or any of my welders, on my lathe, or mill......... What's the difference?


H.W.

Who says we are only talking about properly designed, wired and grounded electrical equipment? I thought we were talking about electric homebrew rigs Usually build DIY method by non electricians or at the very least built and sold by a homebrew supply company as a non CE certified or UL listed DIY kit that may or may not meet the proper safety standards (like high gravities kits) so they accept no liability for any accidents... (VERY unlike a commercially build and sold stove or hot water tank...)

Honestly I'd say the mixed bag of skill levels and wiring "preferences of these non standard non inspected devices that may not meet safety codes is all the more reason why a gfci should be used and is strongly recommended...
Your right its a choice... doesn't mean either choice is an equally smart one..... Going with a gfci is safer period. just as some prefer to not update old outlets and bring them up to code with grounds or gfci units... And I would guess the the majority of the related accidents are from those people paying for it...And I believe this is what Bobby meant with his airbag comment...

 

[Beek]

I just can't believe someone would suggest not using gfci to save some money. I guess my life is just more valuable to me than the sixty bucks it would take to buy a spa panel. Not using gfci is your choice and it's an opinion, I just don't think it's an opinion that should be stated here when it's such a safety issue.

 

[h22lude]

So you mean a power strip with a built-in GFCI?

Just cut the cord and wire it in yourself, problem solved.

I can get one like this, but since it has 1.5mm wires then that means that it's intended for 10A loads. Run 30A through those wires and you're liable to start a fire.

http://www.taloon.com/jatkojohto-2m-4133840-vskb-3x1-5s/S-3260530/dp?openGroup=4252

30A is quite heavy - we don't allow 30A single-phase household circuits in Europe. That's why we use 3-phase household power. All of the GFCI that I can find are either 16A (2 pole) or 40A (4 pole). The 2 pole obviously being for a single phase circuit and the 4 pole for a three phase circuit.

I'm not really understanding what you are saying. The inline cord I'm talking about is an extension cord with built in GFCI. For 30A 240V, they cost close to $200.

I can't take any GFCI cord and wire it to 10 gauge wire. It seems like you understand that is not the way to do it but you are telling me to do it. I'm very confused

Airbags are pretty new too, but I'm not putting my wife in a car without one. Ok, pretty distant analogy. The water heater and range, and all those other appliances you mentioned are also engineered and installed by professionals, more often than not getting UL certifications. On the other hand, the devices and systems that we're using GFCI as a last resort safety net for are amateur one-off systems built following plans found on the internet. I think "apples and oranges" is a vast under exaggeration.

Take the cord you were going to run from the outlet to your controller and splice in a $50 Midwest spa panel as the inline GFCI. If you can't spend $50 for insurance, don't brew electric.

Let me see if I understand what you mean...

Take the 3 wires from the brew system and plug those into the line out of a 50A spa panel (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Midwest-...el-Disconnect-with-GFI-UG412RMW250P/100686230) and then take a 3 wire dryer plug, that I need to buy anyway, (http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-3-Prong-30-Amp-Dryer-Cord-WX9X4GDS/202214665) and plug those into the line in on the spa panel. Then the system is hardwired to a spa panel with a plug.

The correct?

Have you thought about a 10/3 extension cord?
They aren't cheap but it's less than hiring an electrician and/or re-wiring your house.
I use them for my floor sanding equipment as the sanders are 240v.
You can buy the rubber coated cords and ends at home depot or you could probably find a 100 ft cord from a flooring tools supplier for $200-250.

An extension cord doesn't solve the issue of GFCI or no GFCI. An extension cord just extends the power cable. The inline GFCI cord is what I would need and that is almost as much as installing an outlet.

I just can't believe someone would suggest not using gfci to save some money. I guess my life is just more valuable to me than the sixty bucks it would take to buy a spa panel. Not using gfci is your choice and it's an opinion, I just don't think it's an opinion that should be stated here when it's such a safety issue.

Honestly, the reason I ask is because a lot of electricians say it isn't needed. If it was required or absolutely needed to prevent an accident, I wouldn't even ask. I've actually been hearing more people say not to use GFCI because there really isn't a point.

 

[augiedoggy]

you can make a heavy duty extension cord with the proper rated 30A soow or even sjoow cord (appliance style twisted cwire cord ) and just put the spa panel anywhere inline in that extension cord if you like... or do it the way you suggested.

 

[h22lude]

you can make a heavy duty extension cord with the proper rated 30A soow or even sjoow cord (appliance style twisted cwire cord ) and just put the spa panel anywhere inline in that extension cord if you like... or do it the way you suggested.

So basically it is like making an inline GFCO extension cord but the GFCI is a big spa panel box.

This may be a stupid question but does the box need to be grounded to anything or can I just lay it anywhere when I brew? The outlet is behind my dryer so I would probably lay the spa panel on the dryer.

 

[augiedoggy]

So basically it is like making an inline GFCO extension cord but the GFCI is a big spa panel box.

This may be a stupid question but does the box need to be grounded to anything or can I just lay it anywhere when I brew? The outlet is behind my dryer so I would probably lay the spa panel on the dryer.

box gets its ground from the ground in your wiring... so no not externally.

 

[Owly055]

I just can't believe someone would suggest not using gfci to save some money. I guess my life is just more valuable to me than the sixty bucks it would take to buy a spa panel. Not using gfci is your choice and it's an opinion, I just don't think it's an opinion that should be stated here when it's such a safety issue.

Believe it......... I consider GFCI on a brew stand a total waste of $300........... I've been working with electricity, often much higher voltages than this for a lifetime. A properly wired system has no need of a GFCI..... It's hardly a matter of what your life is worth. It isn't going to save your life...... It's merely going to lighten your pocket book.

I'd love to see a list of people who have been electrocuted while brewing........... I suspect that you would not find a single name on that list. If you are so nervous about electricity that you are afraid of having a 220 powered heating element without GFCI..... Perhaps you shouldn't be working with electricity at all......... A good ground provides more than adequate protection for this.

Believe it or not........ I actually fly without a parachute............. Light planes, ultralights, and even as a passenger on commercial jets!!

H.W.

 

[h22lude]

box gets its ground from the ground in your wiring... so no not externally.

Even on a 3 wire set up? Does the neutral act as the ground?

This is sort of unrelated but figured I'd ask since we are talking about electrical stuff. The element is grounded to the pot. What does that do? Wouldn't that mean if the element shorts out, the electricity would go to the metal pot?

 

[Bobby_M]

Believe it......... I consider GFCI on a brew stand a total waste of $300........... I've been working with electricity, often much higher voltages than this for a lifetime. A properly wired system has no need of a GFCI..... It's hardly a matter of what your life is worth. It isn't going to save your life...... It's merely going to lighten your pocket book.

I'd love to see a list of people who have been electrocuted while brewing........... I suspect that you would not find a single name on that list. If you are so nervous about electricity that you are afraid of having a 220 powered heating element without GFCI..... Perhaps you shouldn't be working with electricity at all......... A good ground provides more than adequate protection for this.

Believe it or not........ I actually fly without a parachute............. Light planes, ultralights, and even as a passenger on commercial jets!!

H.W.

Let's just agree at least that $300 isn't the actual cost of GFCI. It's $57 plus a couple of cord grips for the entry and exit of the SJOOW cord you already need to buy.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-50-Amp-BR-Type-Spa-Panel-BR50SPA/100206043?keyword=BR50SPA

Another thing we can probably all agree on is that people that get killed while messing with home built electrical devices usually don't post on the internet about it.

The choice to spend or not spend $57 is on the individual. My opinion is that it is a relatively small percentage of the overall cost of an electric brewery build and having GFCI certainly can't be viewed as a detriment in any way. On the other hand, chicks really dig a guy who lives on the edge and sticks it to the man so it's kind of a tough decision.

 

[BigFloppy]

Another thing we can probably all agree on is that people that get killed while messing with home built electrical devices usually don't post on the internet about it.

but we can always check Darwin Awards to see if they are a member here...

KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS so you don't end up on Darwin Awards

 

[TinTurtle]

I just finished wiring a 50 amp and 30 amp 220v outlet 6 feet from my breaker box. Below is the rough costs. Keep in mind I ran everything inside metal conduit.


30 amp only costs
Outlet Box $5
Outlet $10
6 feet of 10 guage, 3 strands $10
Conduit and fittings $20
GFCI Breaker $80
Wall Plate $2

 

[h22lude]

I think I have done too much research and now am confusing myself.

Taking the GFI out of this equation, plugging the 3 wire (hot, hot, ground) element into the 3 prong dryer outlet (hot, hot, neutral); where does the grounding come from? Again taking the GFI out of this, would plugging the element in the dryer outlet be safe and grounded?


A second question that I should probably revisit in the morning after I get sleep is, if I wanted to hook up a spa panel to my dryer outlet so I could unplug my dryer and plug in the spa panel and then have an outlet in the spa panel to plug the 3 prong element into, how would I do that? I found this diagram from P_J that has the 3 wires going in but has 4 going out. I need hot, hot, neutral going in and hot, hot, ground going out.

Ok I'm going to bed and hopefully to think tomorrow. Thanks all

 

[TinTurtle]

Delete is beyond my skill level.