copper/nickel wort chiller?

[frontiercdk]

I have a friend who has access to machinery that will convolute pipe. I want to make a wort chiller with his help. The problem is the machine only uses "copronickel". Does anybody know if that is ok to use?

 

[WayFrae]

I don't know if I would risk using it. If nickel comes into contact with carbon monoxide at moderate temperatures (like boiling) it will create nickel carbonyl which is a very toxic carcinogen. I wouldn't risk it.

EDIT: We now know this to be a non-issue.

 

[frontiercdk]

Well that's out!

Thanks for the heads up!

I will stick to copper.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

So, you couldn't supply him with the proper O.D. copper tubing, and feed that to the machine?

Does this machine make condenser tubes and the like?

WayFrae: Did ya' mean "C O" or "C O2"?



Edit: WayFrae..........Where did ya' find that info on the toxicity, as that's a new one on me.
CuproNickel has been around a long time, in lots of everyday uses, ( coins for one).

 

[WayFrae]

I meant what I said: carbon monoxide (CO). If he is using a propane burner there is a high chance of his chiller being exposed to CO, so I wouldn't risk it.

Edit: Here is a link to the CDC about nickel carbonyl. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0444.html

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Awesome!
I see nothing in there about "CuproNickel".


I see "Nickel Carbonyl, colorless to yellow liquid with a musty odor".

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I found only this, using the search on that site :http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?q=copper+nickel&spell=1&ie=utf8&subset=npguide

Only warns about the reaction with oxidizers.

frontiercdk...............Wanna' get 2 of those chillers made while he's at it?.........

 

[cantrell00]

Cupronickel is typically a 90/10 ratio (Cu/Ni) but can be as high as 70/30.

As a side note, plate chillers are typically a alternating copper & then 304 SS lamination.

Both are very commonly used in heat exchanges, boilers, etc... Some associated with food product processing & water treatment.

I wouldn't lose sleep using it as a chilling medium.

 

[WayFrae]

I realize it doesn't say anything about cupronickel. I linked it to show the dangers of nickel carbonyl. I don't know that cupronickel and CO would create nickel carbonyl. I do know that nickel carbonyl can be formed with impure nickel and CO. At work, we wear respirators when melting anything with 30%+ nickel because of this. I realize melting and boiling in water are completely different but I prefer to err on the safe side of things.

 

[cantrell00]

If heated to the point of fuming, I'd completely agree with you....

 

[mattd2]

I realize it doesn't say anything about cupronickel. I linked it to show the dangers of nickel carbonyl. I don't know that cupronickel and CO would create nickel carbonyl. I do know that nickel carbonyl can be formed with impure nickel and CO. At work, we wear respirators when melting anything with 30%+ nickel because of this. I realize melting and boiling in water are completely different but I prefer to err on the safe side of things.

but how is the op getting co in his wort - I can see it in the air around his boil kettle if he is using a gas burner, but not actually in the wort which will be touching the nickel.
OP is this going to be for a CFC or IC?
CFC I would say the risk of nickel carbonyl in the wort is negligible, IC very very low (it would have to form on the portion of IC sticking out of the pot, then drip into the wort)

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I realize it doesn't say anything about cupronickel. I linked it to show the dangers of nickel carbonyl. I don't know that cupronickel and CO would create nickel carbonyl. I do know that nickel carbonyl can be formed with impure nickel and CO. At work, we wear respirators when melting anything with 30%+ nickel because of this. I realize melting and boiling in water are completely different but I prefer to err on the safe side of things.

Noted..........W A Y on the safe side here!

I wear a respirator @ work as well, when melting metals, ( trade name "Kirksite"), but in this instance, I would implement a nice, convoluted chiller in a heartbeat!

 

[WayFrae]

but how is the op getting co in his wort - I can see it in the air around his boil kettle if he is using a gas burner, but not actually in the wort which will be touching the nickel.
OP is this going to be for a CFC or IC?
CFC I would say the risk of nickel carbonyl in the wort is negligible, IC very very low (it would have to form on the portion of IC sticking out of the pot, then drip into the wort)

Right, but the chiller isn't in the wort the whole time. I usually have mine sitting next to the burner which I'm sure comes into contact with CO. I agree that the risk of any nickel carbonyl getting in the wort with a CFC is negligible.

Noted..........W A Y on the safe side here!

I wear a respirator @ work as well, when melting metals, ( trade name "Kirksite"), but in this instance, I would implement a nice, convoluted chiller in a heartbeat!

Here is a wiki page about nickel carbonyl. To quote the wiki:

At 323 K (50 °C (122 °F)), carbon monoxide is passed over impure nickel. The optimal rate occurs at 130 °C.

This is wayyy below melting point. I understand this is just a wiki article but the article is well cited. Knowing that impure nickel in contact with CO creates nickel carbonyl as low as 122°F is enough to steer me away from using a nickel bearing wort chiller that will be sitting next to my burner before use.

Edit: I am no expert on these things but I would much rather steer someone away from something that, to my understanding, is potentially dangerous, than to blindly say "Yeah, go for it."

 

[mattd2]

Right, but the chiller isn't in the wort the whole time. I usually have mine sitting next to the burner which I'm sure comes into contact with CO. I agree that the risk of any nickel carbonyl getting in the wort with a CFC is negligible.



Here is a wiki page about nickel carbonyl. To quote the wiki:
This is wayyy below melting point. I understand this is just a wiki article but the article is well cited. Knowing that impure nickel in contact with CO creates nickel carbonyl as low as 122°F is enough to steer me away from using a nickel bearing wort chiller that will be sitting next to my burner before use.

Edit: I am no expert on these things but I would much rather steer someone away from something that, to my understanding, is potentially dangerous, than to blindly say "Yeah, go for it."

Its boiling point is also 43°C - so any Ni(CO)4 produced will evaporate immediately, and given the likely small area of Ni exposed to the CO and generally good ventilation when using a gas burner the concentration in the air would again be negligible. How hot is your IC when you go to put it in the kettle - 50°C is getting to the point of too hot to touch and will cause tissue damage, so if you can pick it up with your bare hands it will not be over 50°C.

 

[cantrell00]

Inhalation of haxavalient chromium is a bigger concern when dealing with nickel (& chrome) based metals in my opinion.

That would require it to be molten with airborne fumes though.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Cool, WayFrae.......So ya' think that an alloy, would have an "impure" nickel in it?

And you pre-heat your chiller, before putting it in your Wort?.......

Not questioning YOUR fears or concerns, just don't want anyone to cry "wolf", if they don't actually see one...........

 

[mattd2]

Inhalation of haxavalient chromium is a bigger concern when dealing with nickel (& chrome) based metals in my opinion.

That would require it to be molten with airborne fumes though.

Can you explain how you get Chromium compounds from Nickel? I see no reference to chromium being a component of the common nickel-copper alloys.

 

[cantrell00]

Can you explain how you get Chromium compounds from Nickel? I see no reference to chromium being a component of the common nickel-copper alloys.

You are right. I should have been more specific.

 

[mattd2]

Cool, WayFrae.......So ya' think that an alloy, would have an "impure" nickel in it?

And you pre-heat your chiller, before putting it in your Wort?.......

Not questioning YOUR fears or concerns, just don't want anyone to cry "wolf", if they don't actually see one...........

No, no, no... he is getting confused by the process of purifying nickel I think. From what I understand passing CO over Ni at above 50°C will result in Ni(CO)4. But the Ni does not need to be pure, and therefore you can then take the Ni(CO)4 created from the impure Ni and heat it to above 220°C at which it will decompose to Ni and CO.

 

[mattd2]

You are right. I should have been more specific.

Can you be more specific then? Or delete your post as irrelevant to the thread?

 

[cantrell00]

Can you be more specific then? Or delete your post as irrelevant to the thread?

Jesus H dude... Is it really that important?

You are right.. 90/10, 80/20 or 70/30 CuNi does not contain chrome...

I was suggesting that using an IC of 304 SS could potentially pose more of a health concern because of the chrome.

That being said - neither are an issue assuming you don't have a practice of grinding portions of the chiller to an airborne dust, snorting it, while also immersing it into hot wort.

Better?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Noted, mattd2 !

 

[mattd2]

Jesus H dude... Is it really that important?

You are right.. 90/10, 80/20 or 70/30 CuNi does not contain chrome...

I was suggesting that using an IC of 304 SS could potentially pose more of a health concern because of the chrome.

That being said - neither are an issue assuming you don't have a practice of grinding portions of the chiller to an airborne dust, snorting it, while also immersing it into hot wort.

Better?

It sort of is, in a thread already full of misunderstanding and near-on fear mongering it is just adding more fuel to the fire.
It was a fair comment to ask for you to be more specific when you had accepted that you should have been more specific but did actually go on to be more specific.
The OP already thinks he is going to die from Ni(CO)4 if he makes the chiller, now he's going to get cancer too.

 

[mattd2]

Noted, mattd2 !

And I think it is more a case of "the sky is falling"

 

[dex0807]

Pretty much make the assumption that if you come on this board asking about using anything other than SS or copper you will be flamed for even thinking about it.
Now go say 9 Hail Mary's and you will be forgiven.

 

[WayFrae]

Its boiling point is also 43°C - so any Ni(CO)4 produced will evaporate immediately, and given the likely small area of Ni exposed to the CO and generally good ventilation when using a gas burner the concentration in the air would again be negligible. How hot is your IC when you go to put it in the kettle - 50°C is getting to the point of too hot to touch and will cause tissue damage, so if you can pick it up with your bare hands it will not be over 50°C.

Oooh that's a good point. I didn't catch that! Also, I never claimed to be an expert on this. I just remembered something about CO and Ni and thought I would warn the OP about it. However, it appears more knowledgeable people have pointed out that it should be safe to use it as a wort chiller. Brew on!