Copper equipment

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Chrisbrewbeers

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Any one have opinions on coppers effectiveness for chilling( and the safety of it plus any flavor impact) vs stainless. My 3 year old 3/8 inch 50 ft cooper chiller oxides so bad between brews that I just think it can't be good all that going into beer. I had it 2 brews ago develop a pea sized green spot that I had cleaned before but it keeps reappearing. I used it with the spot on there but it got me worried and got a 1/2 inch 50ft stainless which worked significantly better. I usually never got green blue, which I heard is bad, except that little spot on copper but black commonly and it comes out of wort shiny so it must get in my beer.
 
I'm going to go against the stainless fad, even though stainless is a perfectly wonderful material for brewing, with a few facts and thoughts without getting too technical...

Copper has been used in brewing and distilling longer than any of us have existed. It is still used today.

Copper provides a natural nutrient for yeasts and is naturally antibacterial.

Copper can essentially seal itself if properly used and cleaned.

Some of the chemicals used to clean stainless can NOT be used on copper. Nasty reactions can occur and create things you don't want in your beer or body.

Stainless is used for dairy and food processing where illness causing bacteria can not be tolerated or allowed to grow. Brewing is a much different thing. We don't have the same risk of bacteria's similar to dairy products. Proper sterilization prior to brewing is a must no matter what material touches your wort, to avoid souring, wild yeast and other contaminations. Proper cleaning afterwards is also a must with any material.

The thermal conductivity in copper simply cannot be beat. In BTU/(ft hr F), copper is rated at 232, stainless steel is rated at 9 (yes, nine). Gold is only 179. If you are choosing copper against stainless for a chiller or HERMS coil, that is a considerable cost and space savings simply due to the much shorter length required to achieve the same amount of heat exchange. It can also make a much more effective and efficient exchanger using similar size and length tubing. In my 15.5g Sanke HLT, I use 20 feet of copper. My temp differentials are identical and will hold just as well as my buddy's rig with 50 feet of SS tube, with the same pump and basic plumbing design.

Copper is wonderful. It's not as pretty (well, some dig the color). It is not as durable. You need to use the correct food safe solders. And, you need to use the correct stuff to clean it.

Good old oxyclean and starsan are great. Don't let it soak for days. run it through the system. Rinse and let it dry completely. If you want to bring back the shine or you got some green/blue yuckies, a table salt and vinegar solution is amazing. So is a mild lemon juice and salt solution. But again, clean it, rinse it and let it dry. Scrubbing should never be needed and will remove its natural protective coating.
 
And copper is a heavy metal which can be toxic if you get too much of it inside your body, too much in this case might be already very little . I would worry about oxidised spots disappearing in the Wort...
 
I feel like the few times I had the copper chiller perfectly bright clean when it went in the wort that those were better beers. I've also had a few batches that I dumped because 2 would give me a headache and nausea. I thought something the yeast did but after searching some on this it could have been the chiller. The stainless one I got kicks ass I can stir easily in the center of it too. It worked way better than I expected.
 
Copper is not used for fermenters for a reason... Think about it. Your leaving acidic wort exposed to a toxic heavy metal that dissolves in acidic liquids... while it may be ok for short term use on the hot side in brewing it has become basically outlawed in all other types of direct food contact use including wine making for this reason... even copper cooking pots all have to be lined with tin or some other form of protective coating...
Even most modern copper brewing equipment is lined and just copper for show on the outside.

Its just not the ideal choice for this application. The yeast can consume some amounts of it picked up in the hot end process which is why its allowed at all in beer making.

I toured a brewery in Belgium where the brew master was actually some sort of metallurgist or other professional in this feild and he said they were replacing the copper brewing equipment as most of the other brweries in Belgium have already done not only for sanitation reasons but for long term health concern reasons and the effects it has on the flavor of the beer.
 
-yet in the alps, in France, Switzerland and I believe Italy as well, they still use copper kettles to heat milk, inoculate it with culture and wait for the isoelectric point of casein to be reached and curd coagulation to begin. These cheeses are then cooked to encourage further expulsion of whey.

IMG_7150-2-e1502814864236.jpg


Used in cooking too, though most copper cookware is tin-lined.

I was an alpine cheesemaker and made in SS for convenience and for the same concern; and I hadn't seen enough data to warrant going with the traditional metal. That, plus it's pretty arduous cleanup - you MUST stay on top of verdigris, or you definitely are introducing toxins.
 
Copper before beer you're in the clear. Beer and copper liver stopper!

Note this is just my opinion. I say this because copper has been argued here 1 million times and has mixed opinions.

In a nutshell! Copper will start to corrode when the pH drops below 7. The lower the pH and the longer the exposure the more corrosion you will get. Now onto cooling wort, yes the pH below 7 (usually around 5) but the exposure time of 30-60 minutes is not long enough to leech to the toxic levels. Plus yeast will consume some copper and it increase their life expectancy.

Now again my opinion, I personally would not use copper to cool fermenting beer (wort yes). The pH is rapidly dropping and the exposure is longer (10-30 days depending on the beer). To me the price of copper vs SS is not worth the risk. For 5 bucks more buy the SS the worry is gone.

Now it's been posted here or on another board, I can't remember. One of the top metallurgist in brewing says copper coils for cooling fermenting beer is fine. The oxidation layer was sufficient enough to not leech copper.
 
In total agreement with LaMoe. Say an IC, it builds up an oxidation layer and its exposure is relatively limited. But in a low-pH beer, it's a problem. All the reasons LaMoeCur said.

My more serious concern is in maintaining copper. If for some reason you allow that greenish-hue to develop on the copper, you have verdigris, and this is seriously toxic. Imagine alpine cheesemakers and their huge vats, having to maintain those vats, direct fired over wood, with primitive means. You gotta wanna.
 
Gadjobrinus said:
In total agreement with LaMoe. Say an IC, it builds up an oxidation layer and its exposure is relatively limited. But in a low-pH beer, it's a problem. All the reasons LaMoeCur said.

My more serious concern is in maintaining copper. If for some reason you allow that greenish-hue to develop on the copper, you have verdigris, and this is seriously toxic. Imagine alpine cheesemakers and their huge vats, having to maintain those vats, direct fired over wood, with primitive means. You gotta wanna.
Click to expand...

Yes Verdigris is bad! A quick soak of your chiller in PBW or StarSan or even vinegar and water will work. You do not want the green stuff in your beer.
 
LarMoeCur said:
Copper before beer you're in the clear. Beer and copper liver stopper!

Note this is just my opinion. I say this because copper has been argued here 1 million times and has mixed opinions.

In a nutshell! Copper will start to corrode when the pH drops below 7. The lower the pH and the longer the exposure the more corrosion you will get. Now onto cooling wort, yes the pH below 7 (usually around 5) but the exposure time of 30-60 minutes is not long enough to leech to the toxic levels. Plus yeast will consume some copper and it increase their life expectancy.

Now again my opinion, I personally would not use copper to cool fermenting beer (wort yes). The pH is rapidly dropping and the exposure is longer (10-30 days depending on the beer). To me the price of copper vs SS is not worth the risk. For 5 bucks more buy the SS the worry is gone.

Now it's been posted here or on another board, I can't remember. One of the top metallurgist in brewing says copper coils for cooling fermenting beer is fine. The oxidation layer was sufficient enough to not leech copper.
Click to expand...
It Was John Palmer who said that in a podcast... (He is a metallurgist by profession) I just met him about a month ago.. pretty down to earth Guy...
First thing he said to me after shaking my hand.. "I gotta sparge, be right back" as he walked off to the mens room...
 
Maybe I'm wrong but seems there are much cheaper stainless options for all our brewing needs out there. I got a 50 ft stainless chiller for cheaper than my 25ft cooper chiller. Works much better too.
 
augiedoggy said:
It Was John Palmer who said that in a podcast... (He is a metallurgist by profession) I just met him about a month ago.. pretty down to earth Guy...
First thing he said to me after shaking my hand.. "I gotta sparge, be right back" as he walked off to the mens room...
Click to expand...

It was John Palmer!
 
My 50 ft 1/2 inch stainless was $100 it's way nicer than my old copper one. I should have upgraded sooner. More beer is where I got it. It's built very well.
 
augiedoggy said:
BTWE I bought 100 ft of 3/8" stainless coil on ebay for $50.. im sure they have some great deals on 1/2" too... you can bend it around a cornies keg to reshape it... if you fill it with sand it bends better im told.

there are lots of 50ft 3/8 and 1/2" stainless premade chillers on there starting at $60 shipped...
Click to expand...

Aggiedoggy is right. When I built my system, I got a 100 ft of 1/2" 316L stainless for $55 bucks shipped on EBAY. I used 50 ft for my HERMS coil and 50 ft for my chiller. It's still listed for $65 OBO! I'll bet if you offer him $55 or $60 you will get it. I'll tell you it's a ***** to coil!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2Dia-X-03...141196?hash=item25dff4a14c:g:d1YAAOSwcgNZLwrJ
 

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