Coors Banquet clone failure - thoughts??

[Mack]

5 gallon batch:

4 lb 6 oz Pilsen Malt(6-row)
2.5 lbs flaked corn
1 lb corn sugar
3 oz carapils

1 oz Saaz hops @ 60 mins

1 hour mash at 150, BIAB brew method. Good numbers with a FG of 1.001, 5.5%ABV.

But the taste - floral... I've tried this with 3 different styles of yeast (34/70, diamond lager, and a us-05 ale yeast).

Honestly, they all taste the same, flowery... nothing like a banquet does..

I've read the other banquet thread and have a "known" recipe saved for the next batch.

My question is does anyone else associate Saaz hops with a floral taste? Maybe it's semi citrusy.. but it almost taste to me like a perfumy after taste...

Its a very drinkable lawnmower beer, almost water clear, its crisp and goes down easy, but it ain't Coors and since all 3 batces I've done are so damn similar, its gotta be the hops...

Curious to hear others' thoughts...

 

[Snuffy]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/coors-banquet.728225/

Good discussion of this brew. Looks like they may use rice instead of corn.

 

[Mack]

@Snuffy That's the thread I was referring to, thanks. I've never really used rice, have considered doing a cereal mash, unless I use instant rice (I think that's how it works anyway).

I see saaz hops in a lot of macro clones, but it doesn't seem like it's the right choice to me. I'm gonna try hallertau next time.

 

[Pennine]

Saaz is very floral to me too.
I thought Coors was using Chinook?

 

[Pennine]

They are actually using hop extract.

 

[day_trippr]

 

[Pennine]

Here is from Coors. Corn Syrup, interesting rice must be in Coors light. I wonder if they make an extract of the 4 hops above?

 

[Yooper]

I'd probably ditch the saaz (although I personally love it in BoPils) and go with a super clean hop, like magnum or hallertauer, use the corn if you like it or corn syrup and keep fermentation temperature at the low end of the yeast's temperature. I would not use both that much corn and that much corn syrup, though. That's a pretty high percentage of corn. I'd go a bit lower- no more than 25% corn.

I remember making an all centennial beer, and then complaining it tasted like F*ing flowers, as I must be more sensitive to the floral qualities of some hops, so I'd change that even if it isn't totally authentic.

 

[Mack]

They are actually using hop extract.

If I'm spending $40 for 5 gallons of home brew, I'll just buy the real deal for the same price lol...

 

[Mack]

Come to think of it, I've always thought Bud light tasted like green apples and flowers, and that's the exact stuff I have now .. so I guess I managed to brew that... Thanks for all the great responses (and not bashing me for attempting a macro clone)!!

 

[An Ankoù]

Come to think of it, I've always thought Bud light tasted like green apples and flowers, and that's the exact stuff I have now .. so I guess I managed to brew that... Thanks for all the great responses (and not bashing me for attempting a macro clone)!!

I think macro clones are the hardest to get right because they're standardised down to the nth degree to get consistency of flavour and long shelf-life under adverse conditions.

I had always thought Heineken used Strisselspalt hops until I discovered they used hop extract!
Well, my beer tasted better, but, as a clone, it was a failure.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

I spoke with the head brewer last year. They use a German hefeweizen yeast at lower temps, hence it has a very subtle banana aroma.

 

[Bobby_M]

You'd be better off achieving the VERY low IBUs with a TINY amount of high alpha, low cohumulone hops. 1/4 oz of Warrior would do it or 1/2oz of Chinook. You didn't mention how much yeast you're pitching, at what temp, etc. Pitch a ton and keep it at 49F.

 

[Mack]

@Bobby_M I'm only pitching a single sachet of dry yeast, and technically I'm not "lagering" (fermenting under pressure at about 60°F). I know the mouth feel is definitely different with this pseudo-lager, is the flavor drastically different?

 

[seatazzz]

If you want to go a little bit cheaper on the hops, try using Crystal instead of Hallertau. Almost always on sale at YVH, and it's the American substitution for hallertau mittelfruh (closely related). It bitters well, and if you keep the late addition about 20-15 minutes before end of boil it isn't super flowery (at least in my experience).

 

[Mack]

@seatazzz I actually have a couple pounds of both in the freezer. I thought adding hops that late in the boil would be more flavor/aroma type adds... Where I'm pretty certain all I want is a smidge of bittering .. can't hurt to try on a batch I reckon.

 

[Pennine]

If I'm spending $40 for 5 gallons of home brew, I'll just buy the real deal for the same price lol...

I feel the same, I can get a 30 pack for $20 so it basically makes no sense for me to ever brew an American lager.

 

[Bobby_M]

I feel the same, I can get a 30 pack for $20 so it basically makes no sense for me to ever brew an American lager.

If you distill this logic, your reason for homebrewing comes down to getting a particular style of beer cheaper than retail? I thought it was the journey?

 

[Mack]

@Bobby_M The journey is definitely a major part of it, but I've never had any illusions of brewing perfect beer. Since my "journey" began in December, I've brewed several drinkable ales and pseudo-lagers. This project began as a way to save money and enjoy my drinking hobby... And has been successful to date. With a few exceptions, I haven't bought beer at the store since Thanksgiving of 2024. If the journey involves finessing my craft, that's a bonus - which I suppose is why I try to get closer to my desired target.

 

[mac_1103]

I thought it was the journey?

Since there are so many forks in the road, I guess it depends on which journey(s) you choose. Something really hard to get right but really cheap and easy to find isn't high on my list, but I can certainly appreciate the satisfaction that someone else might derive from the pursuit.

 

[Mack]

For what it's worth, it isn't my sole intention to make "Coors" at home, it's to find a style of beer that, before beginning homebrewing, was my absolute favorite, and to get something semi-close to it. Admittedly, after developing a palette for hops and "new" (to me) beer styles, tasting stuff in most cans is now pretty "bleh" and lacks both flavor and substance. But I have to say, after a hard hot day in the sun, it's hard to beat a "plain ol' yellow(ish) beer thats got a little fizz and a good flavor.

I don't see myself floating on the river drinking a stout, but I have brewed some damned good low-hop IPAs that keep the ABV in check and feel good on the tongue as well as a few lawnmower beers that even at 6%+ ABV were hard to not guzzle down. I think there's room for all of the styles, but since I've committed to the brew thing, and to keep the wife happy (and very supportive thus far), I'll keep experimenting with the ingredients that get me back to that Colorado kool-aid kick in kidneys that I've loved for the last 35 years.

 

[Snuffy]

The only way I save money by brewing is to brew beer that is expensive to buy locally. That means import and high-end craft clones. Cost is a factor, but not the most important factor. I enjoy the process and having lots of custom brew on hand. If I can brew something for 2 bucks a pint as good or better than what I would have to pay 7 bucks a pint for at a pub, then I’m saving money. Why would I brew something I can pick up at any quick mart?
Some people like to hunt. Factor in all the vehicles, licenses, ammo, weapons and gear and then how much do you think a pound of venison costs? Same with fishing. Some things are just satisfying to do and that is money well spent IMO. Brewing is way affordable by comparison.

 

[bwible]

Funny I just bought some Banquet. It a good beer. I usually have something like that or High Life. Landshark is a real good one when the weather gets hotter.

These are not beers you brew to save money. Yes, there is the challenge. The mountain to be climbed. And yes, its damn satisfying when you do it yourself. Did you ever find yourself having one of your beers and saying “Wow, I can’t believe I really made this.”

The beers you’re going to really save money on are the big beers like Barleywine, Old Ale, Imperial Stout and the like. Aside from being fun to brew, there’s also an opportunity to brew something you can’t find locally or try to re-create something from the past. I bought (4) 16oz cans of Imperial Stout from one of our local micros for $35. Its a great beer and I like supporting local. At case price, though, thats about $197. So while I’m not going to be buying a case I could sure make myself 3 gallons or about (30) 12 oz bottles for a whole lot less than that. And if 30 is too many you could dial back further. I’m working on dialing in volumes on some recipes now to try to be able to brew a 12 pack at a time. As the brewer you have total control.

 

[Broothru]

@Bobby_M I'm only pitching a single sachet of dry yeast, and technically I'm not "lagering" (fermenting under pressure at about 60°F). I know the mouth feel is definitely different with this pseudo-lager, is the flavor drastically different?

IIRC, all the Coors beers are fermented with Andechs strain yeast. I’m not sure any dry yeasts are sourced from Andechs, but there are a few liquid yeasts that are, White Labs WLP-835x being the one I go to (just finished a New Zealand Pilsner using it.

It’s very versatile, but is sometimes hard to get your hands on it. Imperial has one that I used once that one of their lab techs told me was ‘pure legit Andechs’ whatever that means. Andechs is one of my favorite lager strains.

 

[Broothru]

Imperial L26 “Pilgrimage” is the Andechs strain I was thinking of. Also there is Wyeast 2105-PC, which is one of their “private collection “ yeasts. Trouble is they haven’t released W2105-PC since before COVID, and don’t appear to be planning it any time soon.

 

[Mack]

I had some strain of yeast on order back in January, it was allegedly THE yeast, but the company wrote back and said they couldn't source it anymore (after covid). I gave up on it. I'm grateful for the suggestions in this thread and will definitely give them a shot!

 

[Pennine]

If you distill this logic, your reason for homebrewing comes down to getting a particular style of beer cheaper than retail? I thought it was the journey?

No not at all, home brewing is one of the most costly ways of enjoying beer. If anyone says otherwise they don't really value their time appropriately.

I am not a big fan of American Lager so I don't really have any interest in brewing it. If a friend asked me to, I would just buy them a case of Coors and save my time.

I actually started brewing because I lived in Europe and it was difficult to find an American IPA. It was easy access to German Lagers and Belgian Trappists so I never actually had a big push to brew them.

Then I moved to England and I never had any interest in brewing bitters or English IPAs. That was also around the time when the big brewers over there were growing up, brew york, Vocation, Verdant, Northern Monk. So there was access to American style hazies then. And of course every continental offering is readily available too. So I did tend brew various things, old school American IPA, richer beers like imperial stouts and some sours.

Now I am back in the states I can go to the local beer shop and I have easy access to all things American, Belgian and German. But oddly enough the British offerings are ****. So now all I seem to brew are poor attempts at British cask ale.

So I don't really brew for the cost or journey but for the nostalgia?

On another note, I have always wondered if the homebrewer who went pro is the reason home brewing is declining as a hobby. I do know my interest in it has waned as I can ride my bike less than 2 miles in any direction and be at a decent brewery. And I can pretty much get beer from any brewery in the US and a lot from the world at the local beer shop.

 

[Broothru]

Imperial L26 “Pilgrimage” is the Andechs strain I was thinking of. Also there is Wyeast 2105-PC, which is one of their “private collection “ yeasts. Trouble is they haven’t released W2105-PC since before COVID, and don’t appear to be planning it any time soon.

Edit: The Wyeast 2105-PC was called “Rocky Mountain Lager.” YMMV, assuming you can find it. My frozen yeast samples spreadsheet says that I have a few 1st Generation overbuilt propagation tubes ‘on ice.’ Maybe I should try reviving one of them, but they’ve at least 5-6 years old by now. Wish I’d made slants.

 

[Pennine]

IIRC, all the Coors beers are fermented with Andechs strain yeast. I’m not sure any dry yeasts are sourced from Andechs, but there are a few liquid yeasts that are, White Labs WLP-835x being the one I go to (just finished a New Zealand Pilsner using it.

It’s very versatile, but is sometimes hard to get your hands on it. Imperial has one that I used once that one of their lab techs told me was ‘pure legit Andechs’ whatever that means. Andechs is one of my favorite lager strains.

I think this one is actually the Coors strain as well, but I could be wrong. It's a hell of a yeast either way.

https://propagatelab.com/product/andechs-lager/

 

[Broothru]

Oh, yes. I’ve used that very yeast a couple of times, but I thought they were only releasing these days in brewery pitch sizes. It seems a bit “coincidental” that Propagation Labs is located within the shadow (so to speak) of a certain Colorado-based brewing company in Golden, CO.