Converting AG recipe to extract

[jmoney05]

well i will be keeping that project on the back burner for a bit then until I get an all grain setup

thanks for all the input guys

 

[freisste]

well i will be keeping that project on the back burner for a bit then until I get an all grain setup

thanks for all the input guys

I hope we answered at least your general question, even if specifics got REALLY specific. Anything else we can help you with?

 

[billl]

"To get a sour, you leave grains out in a bowl.......I am not sure that a bowl of extract would do the same thing. I don't think that this is an extract snob comment."

Ah - there is the disconnect. That really isn't the traditional way to make a sour. You make the wort as usual. Then you add yeast and critters and let them get to work. A year or so later, you've got a sour beer. You absolutely can do that with extract.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

" My statement was based on the fact that an all extract beer is generally not going to hold up as well over the long periods of time needed to make a good sour as a grain wort."

Yes, and that was why I asked why you would think that. Extract is literally the exact same ingredients of the same quality that you would use in your mash. It will "hold up" exactly as well as any other wort and will provide a perfectly fine environment for all the various critters to thrive. Obviously, mashing it yourself provides the ability to tweak your mash schedule as you see fit, but extract is perfectly stable and suitable for long aging periods.

Right, like I said, it can be done with extract. But since you can't run the proper mash with extract, it's not going to be the ideal environment for souring bacteria over the long term. You've been around here for awhile, Billl, I know that you know about malliard reactions, the instability of extract over the long term, the process in which extract is made (i.e. simple infusion mash), the amount of adjunct (i.e. unmalted grain) that goes into a traditional sour beer, and the process of mashing said adjuncts. Again, not saying you can't make a sour beer with extracts, just pointing out the limits in doing so. It's my opinion that a brewer would be best served making a beer like this from grain and not extract. Not trying to argue with ya man.

Oh, and cheezy, I really hope you're joking. I assume you are, but you're leading these n00bs astray.

 

[billl]

I'm not trying to argue, just provide some clarity for new brewers. Sours are becoming increasingly popular, so I'm sure lots of people will be around trying to brew them. May as well get some info to them about how to best accomplish that. Otherwise, you get misinformation flowing like "to get a sour, you leave the grains out in a bowl."

The grain bill for something like a traditional flander style sour is pretty simple. Pilsner, munich/vienna, corn, a little special b or other dark malt. Lots of unmalted wheat is common in some modern brews, but isn't particularly traditional. Since you can get munich and pilsner extract now and flaked maize is common, you are good to go.

For mash schedule - everyone has their preferences, but a "medium" fermentable wort is pretty standard. The critters are what really dry out the style anyway. Depending on the mix of critters you prefer, you might like more simple sugars to sour faster or more complex sugars to get more brett in the mix. That is more preference than requirement. With extract, that choice is made for you and you'll only be able to adjust the mix by varying the timing and amount of the various critters.

Malliard reactions are actually desired in many styles. Most of the commercial brewers are doing 2 hour boils to get that subtle kettle flavor.

Many sours are purposely unstable. I mean, you are dosing them with bacteria, right? They also are aged in barrels and exposed to o2. You don't want a ton of protein in the mix, but most malts and extracts are low protein already.

Honestly, the bacteria and "wild" yeast that make traditional sours are some of the toughest organisms on earth. We spend a ton of time cleaning and sanitizing just to keep them out of most of our beer. You really don't have to worry about them thriving in the wort. The only real "trick" is getting the balance of those various flavors to your liking. I've tasted some extract sours that did a great job of that (to me at least) and some AG sours that were just bad. There are no shortage of ways to make good, or bad, beer.

 

[jmoney05]

..and time and patience.

Or so we assume.

Actually there isn't any actual "barrier" to making an sour that I can see, except that we don't really do it much and it seems a little scary and misunderstood and so we usually shelf it into the corner and say it's an "advanced" topic.

I wouldn't recommend a sour to a novice for a combination of reasons (it takes to look, a sour is an exception and one's first beers should, for learning experience, be "typical"). But I think my *main* reason is one can't really predict how a sour will turn out. One can't say "if you do this and that it will result in how and why".

But I also hate telling a novice what he or she can't do.

I'd say this is an advanced beer because: i) It sour ages for a long time and that's unpredictable. Their web site indicates that each batch differs which indicates it's tempermental and the brewer fusses and tweaks with it using knowledge derived from experience. ii) It's oak barreled aged. This can be replicated by racking of oak chips. I've never done that but it might be easy. But again it's something you tweak with experience. iii) The recipe, a belgian dubbel is "advanced" for a first beer but a fast study can probably do it soon and it's certainly not impossible for a first beer

The main thing is it's a beer that requires tweaking and guidance that comes with experience.

You are pretty much on point. I just started brewing last december, I only have an extract setup, and I just finished my 4 tap keezer. Since we are leasing our new home for a year, I'm holding off buying a all grain system until we buy a house sometime next summer. I want to do it right and get a system like the sabco so that I can really control everything and start to tweak things. Holding off on that recipe till then just makes sense. I look to copying that beer as kind of a "grail" for me since it is unbelievably good, and nearly impossible to find. Getting that one nailed down would be fantastic.

I hope we answered at least your general question, even if specifics got REALLY specific. Anything else we can help you with?

You did, this site and community as always has put me on the right track. I'm hoping that together we can nail that brew down in a year or so and create something really awesome.

 

[woozy]

. I look to copying that beer as kind of a "grail" for me since it is unbelievably good, and nearly impossible to find. Getting that one nailed down would be fantastic.

There's nothing wrong with having a "grail" in mind as you master a craft. It *sounds* like a fantastic beer. I'm really sorry the recipe you found was an utterly different beer. You can still *do* that utterly different beer with extract but... well, it's an utterly different beer.

 

[TNGabe]

Shakes head and walks away....

 

[haberdasher]

woozy, that post was hilarious.

When I saw the OP's recipe, my heart fluttered and I thought it was this one..

Peticolas - Velvet Hammer
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/28520/79038

it's the Imperial Red from Texas woozy mentioned. In fact I'm going to a Peticolas brewery night at a local pub tonight...

 

[billl]

I guess I should have looked the beer up before posting so much about sour formulation

The website claims it is a dubbel base that they age for a year in gueuze-inoculated oak casks . The only description of the malt is "dark fruit".

Generic starting point for an extract based version:

8lbs pilsner DME
1 lb dark candi syrup
0.5 lb special b
1oz saaz @ 60
If there is any hop aroma to it, another 0.5oz @10

Never had the beer, so not sure how sour it is. The website says "moderate acidity" and "subtle". If so, wy3787 to start. 3 days in, add wy3278 or wy3763. Let it ferment out for at least 6 months or so. Once it gets to the sour level you want, toss in some oak cubes and continue to age until you get the level of oak you want.

Of course, if this is going to be an eventual "grail" recipe, it's a small enough brewery that they might give you some direct guidance.

 

[woozy]

Generic starting point for an extract based version:

8lbs pilsner DME
1 lb dark candi syrup
0.5 lb special b
1oz saaz @ 60
If there is any hop aroma to it, another 0.5oz @10

Never had the beer, so not sure how sour it is. The website says "moderate acidity" and "subtle". If so, wy3787 to start. 3 days in, add wy3278 or wy3763. Let it ferment out for at least 6 months or so. Once it gets to the sour level you want, toss in some oak cubes and continue to age until you get the level of oak you want.

Now, *that* is what I call service!