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Conversion in Less Than 1 Hour?

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bajaedition

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That is a challange right there - shortest AG brew
Heat strike water - 15-20 mins
BIAB Mash (with all the brewing water) until iodine test good - could be less than 5 - 15 mins
heat to boil - 15 mins
Boil with hop bursting to get IBUs in range - 15 mins
Cool - 15 mins

Total time = 1 hr 15 mins

Somebody do it! :D
not me, I want to get the most I can, not the least I can
BIAB, just do not seem to get the efficiency of a step infusion with a fly sparge
15 minute boil, you know, hops utilization comes with biol time, not for me, just want that clean boiled in hops taste
cool 15, I do that, good cold break there

I have seen a lot of different things sped up as fast as they can be, but it seems to me that with time comes quality, I will take my time.

What everyone else does is up to them. I applaud the efforts
 

mattd2

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not me, I want to get the most I can, not the least I can
BIAB, just do not seem to get the efficiency of a step infusion with a fly sparge
15 minute boil, you know, hops utilization comes with biol time, not for me, just want that clean boiled in hops taste
cool 15, I do that, good cold break there

I have seen a lot of different things sped up as fast as they can be, but it seems to me that with time comes quality, I will take my time.

What everyone else does is up to them. I applaud the efforts
I know what you are saying there - but it would be a challange :D
Anyway generally I use my hour long "wait" during the mash to weigh out my hops, get other things ready, etc. so If I personally tried to beat the clock I would have most likely just shifted a whole lot of things into the pre-planning stage and not really saved time :D
 

bajaedition

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sounds fun in a fast kind of way
the challenge would be to get everyone to start with the exact same recipe and see who makes the best beer
 

hilts

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I don't think I'll be participating in this "mash to primary in one hour" contest, but I think I might try some higher mash temps. I generally shoot for the middle ground, as I am fairly new to all-grain, but my beer has been finishing really dry. My last batch finished at 90%attenuation with a grain bill of 10%crystal 60 using Chico yeast. Mashed at 152f for 75 minutes. I aerate with a whisk and do a yeast starter from slurry.
1.064 OG 1.007 FG.
 

mattd2

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I don't think I'll be participating in this "mash to primary in one hour" contest, but I think I might try some higher mash temps. I generally shoot for the middle ground, as I am fairly new to all-grain, but my beer has been finishing really dry. My last batch finished at 90%attenuation with a grain bill of 10%crystal 60 using Chico yeast. Mashed at 152f for 75 minutes. I aerate with a whisk and do a yeast starter from slurry.
1.064 OG 1.007 FG.
Have you checked your thermometer is reading correctly? I know mine don't but I know how much they are out so I can adjust.
 

JohnSand

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I also find that you need to stir and check the temps about ten minutes apart to make sure it's steady. And if you use a glass thermometer, (I do) give it time, they read slowly.
 

hilts

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I've been struggling with that. I had a couple of the home cook thermometers that have the probe on a cord, and used them both out of curiosity, and they were almost ten degrees apart. I have since purchased a digital instant read thermometer that I can calibrate, so I don't think that is the issue. As far as stirring goes, I find that the more I stir, the more temp I lose. I have a rectangular cooler for a mash tun, and it seems if I open it and stir, I lose around two degrees. Still searching for a perfect solution.
I've also been wondering if my gravity reading is correct. I use a refractometer for un fermented wort, and hydrometer for beer. I wonder if one of those is false. They both say zero in water. Tasting my beer tells me that it's dry.
Thank you for your input.
 

masonsjax

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Ditto. I would never open my mash tun during the mash, that's a good way to lose all your heat. If you stirred enough to break up all the dough balls and get a stable uniform temp before closing it up, there should be no reason to open the tun until mash is finished.
 

JohnSand

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I don't suffer heat loss during the mash because I mash in a warm oven. But the stirring I suggested was to unify the temp in the mash before the clock starts. I do stir while mashing, but I'm not sure it helps. Opinions seem divided.
 

bajaedition

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I don't suffer heat loss during the mash because I mash in a warm oven. But the stirring I suggested was to unify the temp in the mash before the clock starts. I do stir while mashing, but I'm not sure it helps. Opinions seem divided.
if you look at professional setups, a lot of them stir.
Of course they have steam injection to keep temps the same etc.

they stir to keep from developing channels and have max efficiency.
What you have to realize is that if we as home brewers lose say 5 percent efficiency, we are bummed a bit, but if they lose 5 % in one mash. that can cost thousands of dollars. Most commercial (the big guys not the craft brewers) are at the cutting edge with technology, if they find a way to improve efficiency, they do it.

We as home brewers may not see the need to invest another $500 in a different mash tun. Would take years to recover the cost of say 1/2 a pound of grain in a 20 gallon batch, but ramp that up to thousands of barrels mashed.........

Yes Stirring helps, it helps enough for professionals to instal paddles in mash tuns.

Sorry for the rant,

relax, have a beer, we are just hobbyist after all
 

Gerhard

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Conversion time in a stirred mash vessel with the appropriate grind is < 5 minutes. I worked at a very large Craft Brewer where it was standard to only have a 5 minute hold at conversion temp prior to mash off.

Of course, if you start at 122 F, you need to also account for the ramp up time between 140 or so to your end conversion temp.
 

bajaedition

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THis post is not to change any ones ideas
it is simply an opinion of mine presented for discussion about mash times

please, no one get upset, I am just putting out some ideas about mash times and the reasons for such

Ideas we can all debate if we choose, I find nothing in the brewing hobby is concrete.

There are many factors involved in the conversion matter we need to consider also
equipment is one, what we use as home brewers for a mash tun is usually (not always) a pretty primitive system. using a simple pot or cooler is pretty caveman compared to say, what Miller uses. The systems of a mega brewery are engineered to deal with stuff we would never recover the cost of, or maybe even get working correctly at our amounts. Moving down the line to smaller and smaller commercial brewers the equipment starts to become simpler as the size becomes smaller, What a brew pup brews with may be a lot bigger than our systems but is it that much of better design? Just depends on what they wanted to spend.

Another factor is style of mash, and the procedures of a mash. again that goes into how much and time constraints.

Then factor in the grain bill, any adjuncts needing to be converted and other additive needs of ingredients in the mash. Flaked corn and rice take longer to convert than barley malt.

I have read articles from professional brewers about modern malt taking less than 20 minutes to convert and value that decision.

Do I do a conversion rest for an hour? depends on the mash style and the ingredients. My most common mashes do not. they are step infusions and are 4 30 minute rest, 95, 135, 145ish, 154ish. I find that scedule works best for me from experience and testing. However I use a simple single rest at 150 for a simple blonds Ale.

One of the joys I have had in this hobby is learning different things work for different beers, Mashing being a major example of that. I would encourage any brewer to break out of the mold of single infusion mashes and do the do. Go experiment and review the results.

This is a hobby to enjoy, if long mashes are not enjoyable, do not do them.

I can brew about 10 times a year and have plenty of beer for me and all my friends. 2 of those brews, my Xmas brew and my Oktoberfest beer are long term investments in time and aging. I enjoy them as much as I enjoy an extract American Lite brew.

Just a few thoughts
 

JohnSand

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I think this is a great discussion. There is more than one good way to do almost anything. I certainly try to learn from the experience of others. That is why I'm on this forum.
 

C-Rider

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I can't imagine a mash being finished in 20 minutes.
I've been doing 75 min mashes as per BeerSmith and for a while when I stirred (each 15 min) I took a temp and SG reading
Each time it increased. Almost doubled from 30 min to 75 min.
I'm doing BIAB in a round cooler.
 

RM-MN

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I can't imagine a mash being finished in 20 minutes.
I've been doing 75 min mashes as per BeerSmith and for a while when I stirred (each 15 min) I took a temp and SG reading
Each time it increased. Almost doubled from 30 min to 75 min.
I'm doing BIAB in a round cooler.
Yesterday I experimented with shorter mash time. 10 minutes from stirring in the grains to pulling the grain bag out. Software was set for 80% efficiency and I hit my projected OG. It's in the fermenter right now bubbling like mad. I'll report back with the results in about 2 weeks when I dry hop and again at 3 when I expect to bottle.
 

JohnSand

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Both posts are informative. RM-MN, I'll be interested to see your results.
I'm considering a test batch in which I put the grain in cool, warm steadily to 170, and mash out.
 

HopZombie99

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My mash is invariably 90 minutes. The base malts I am mostly using are MO, Golden Promise and NZ Pilsner. In my experience and with those base malts, I most definitely get better wort. Faster to begin fermentation, faster to complete and finish lower. I think what I take from this thread is the higher temp idea. I will try that on my next mash.

Thanks guys!

HZ99
 

RM-MN

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My mash is invariably 90 minutes. The base malts I am mostly using are MO, Golden Promise and NZ Pilsner. In my experience and with those base malts, I most definitely get better wort. Faster to begin fermentation, faster to complete and finish lower. I think what I take from this thread is the higher temp idea. I will try that on my next mash.

Thanks guys!

HZ99
I'm using pale malt from Rahr and I've been getting way too low FG and it doesn't seem to respond to higher mash temps. I'd like my beer to have a little maltiness left in it but lately all my beers have been finishing at 1.001 to 1.004 although they are predicted to finish 1.011 to 1.016 even with only a 30 minute mash. Basing some of my experimentation on a report (I think it was by Gordon Strong) that newer malts aren't responding to mash temp like they used to and on a thread started by Deathbrewer on controlling attentuation through mash times (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/controlling-attenuation-through-mash-times-60576/) I decided to try a 2 1/2 gallon batch with the 10 minute mash to try and limit the activity by beta amylase so I could get my beer to finish a little higher.
 

grathan

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I wonder if there is any benefit (flavor additions) with an incomplete conversion.

Mitch Steele's IPA has a recipe that calls for 25 minute mash at 159*F that I plan on trying.
 

hilts

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I mashed a couple days ago at 157f. We'll see the side by side results of a similar grain bill at 152f with similar ibu's.
 

Piratwolf

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hilts said:
I mashed a couple days ago at 157f. We'll see the side by side results of a similar grain bill at 152f with similar ibu's.
Hilts, was the base malt all domestic 2-row?
 

Piratwolf

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RM-MN said:
I'm using pale malt from Rahr and I've been getting way too low FG and it doesn't seem to respond to higher mash temps. I'd like my beer to have a little maltiness left in it but lately all my beers have been finishing at 1.001 to 1.004 although they are predicted to finish 1.011 to 1.016 even with only a 30 minute mash. Basing some of my experimentation on a report (I think it was by Gordon Strong) that newer malts aren't responding to mash temp like they used to and on a thread started by Deathbrewer on controlling attentuation through mash times (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/controlling-attenuation-through-mash-times-60576/) I decided to try a 2 1/2 gallon batch with the 10 minute mash to try and limit the activity by beta amylase so I could get my beer to finish a little higher.
RM-MN, if the higher, shorter mash times don't work, try mixing in 30-50% of an English or Continental malted barley. They appear to respond much better to mash temp so you can work your mash.

HopZombie99, the malts you are using are not overly modified like US 2-row, so I readily believe that a 90-min mash produces an excellent wort for you!
 

RM-MN

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I wonder if there is any benefit (flavor additions) with an incomplete conversion.

Mitch Steele's IPA has a recipe that calls for 25 minute mash at 159*F that I plan on trying.
I don't know if there are flavor benefits from incomplete conversion but I do know that you can get starch haze from that. Make a hefeweizen that clears completely. Oops, that isn't to style, it's supposed to be cloudy. Add a tablespoon of flour in the boil and you have a permanent starch haze. Perfect! :ban:
 

hilts

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Piratewolf; yea, I have been using American 2-row. It seems weird to me that everyone has problems with stuck fermentations, while I can't keep a beer from becoming dry. It doesn't seem to matter what base malt I use though. I had similar results with American pale ale malt.
 

GRBC

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That is a challange right there - shortest AG brew

Heat strike water - 15-20 mins

BIAB Mash (with all the brewing water) until iodine test good - could be less than 5 - 15 mins

heat to boil - 15 mins

Boil with hop bursting to get IBUs in range - 15 mins

Cool - 15 mins



Total time = 1 hr 15 mins



Somebody do it! :D

Well, I did something like this last weekend. My goal was to brew a low alcohol "session" beer that has a full APA-style flavor. Mashed for 30 minutes @ 160 and boiled for 30 minutes. All the hop additions were at 15 minutes and I whirlpool end for about 15 minutes after flame out. Transferred it to a keg today to carb up. Will let you know in a week or two how it turned out. Here's the revile in case anyone is interested:

Designated Driver Mild Pale Ale

Style: Mild
Type: All GrainCalories: 114.44
Rating: 0.0Boil Size: 7.11 Gals
IBU's: 32.23Batch Size: 5.50 Gals
Color: 6.7 SRM Boil Time: 30 minutes
Preboil OG: 1.031
EstimatedActual
Brew Date: - 01/12/2014
OG: 1.035 1.035
FG: 1.009 -
ABV: 3.45 % 4.65 %
Efficiency:65.00 % 65.72 %
Serve Date: 02/09/2014 -

Grains & Adjuncts
AmountPercentageNameTimeGravity
5.00 lbs 52.63 %Briess Pale Ale Malt60 mins1.036
2.00 lbs 21.05 %Vienna Malt60 mins1.036
1.00 lbs 10.53 %Briess Carapils60 mins1.034
8.00 ozs 5.26 %Victory Malt60 mins1.034
8.00 ozs 5.26 %Barley, Flaked60 mins1.032
8.00 ozs 5.26 %Melanoiden Malt60 mins1.037

Hops
AmountIBU'sNameTimeAA %
0.50 ozs 7.78Amarillo Gold15 mins 8.40
1.00 ozs 24.45Simcoe15 mins13.20
1.00 ozs 0.00Centennial3 days10.00
0.50 ozs 0.00Citra3 days13.20

Yeasts
AmountNameLaboratory / ID
1 vialsBell's Ale Yeast

Additions
AmountNameTimeStage
4.00 g Calcium Chloride 60 mins Mash
2.00 g Gypsum 60 mins Mash
1.00 each Whirlfloc Tablet 5 mins Boil
1.00 each Yeast Nutrient 5 mins Boil

Mash Profile
Profile Name: All Grain Profile 1

Grain Temp: 70.00 °FMash Tun Vol Loss: 0.50 Gals
Grain Absorption: 0.13 Gals/lbTun Temp Loss: 0.00 °F
Cooling Shrinkage: 4.00 %Kettle Trub Loss: 0.75 Gals
Hourly Boiloff: 1.20 Gals/hr

Mash Steps:
Infusion30 [email protected]°F
Add 36.00 qts water @ 164.8°F
Fly Sparge
Sparge 0.00 qts water @ 170.00 °F

Water Profile
(none)

Fermentation Steps
NameDays / TempEstimatedActual
Primary7 days @ 64.0°F01/12/201401/12/2014
Secondary7 days @ 60.0°F01/19/2014 -
Bottle/Keg14 days @ 45.0°F01/26/2014 -

Carbonation
Force Carbonation
Desired Vol of CO2: 2.40 Vols
Beer Temperature:42.00 °F
Required PSI:12.20
Required Bars:0.84

Notes
(none)
www.iBrewMaster.comVersion: 1.1.1
 

augiedoggy

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Was this pabst and coores?
FYI,
all jokes aside I'm pretty sure pabst is out of business so ive been told.... The pabst you see today is contract brewed by either miller or bud (cant remember which) and Ive been told pabst is no more than a few clerks and suites to handle the financials for the owners..
(rolling rock is on its way to the same situation if not already)
sorry for that off topic bit....
This is really an interesting thread... funny I purchsed my first 50lb sack of grain yesterday (rahr 2 row) since all my previous all grain batches have been from kits... the guy at the homebrew store told me basically 2 row is 2row ... Guess hes not keeping up with the latest news in brewing tech
 
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