Control Panel Troubleshooting Help?

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Sorry for the newb questions, I hired a professional electrician to handle the subpanel part, lol. Can you tell me exactly what I'm looking for to determine the subpanel's efficacy? Do I need to be checking out the main panel at all?
 
With a GFCI breaker, you need a four wire outlet with separate ground and neutral for the GFCI to work properly, if you have any 120V loads in the system. If the system is 240V only, then you don't need the neutral for the GFCI to work properly. Your earlier panel (one of my designs) is 240V only, so would work with a 3-wire plug. Your newer design, with 120V pumps, will not work with a 3-wire plug.

Brew on :mug:
 
Ozarks_Mountain_Brew said:
you need to check the main panel , see this panel where the ground and neutral wires are hooked together, this is what I call a 3 wire box, a 4 wire box will separate the copper and white bus bar and the copper will have a wire going into the earth

View attachment 580879
Click to expand...
I thought ground and neutral were normally bonded in the main service panel (as in the panel shown.)

Brew on :mug:
 
its a little tricky and in reality they do join at some point but on the post 1975 breaker boxes they have an isolated ground bar that grounds to earth as well as a neutral and ground to outlets, the above box is like mine and will only work with 3 wires, that 4th wire is that ground to earth in the breaker box and the ground fault and sub panel has to use it, you can also wire a ground fault to a 3 wire box but it's wired different
 
Ozarks_Mountain_Brew said:
its a little tricky and in reality they do join at some point but on the post 1975 breaker boxes they have an isolated ground bar that grounds to earth as well as a neutral and ground to outlets, the above box is like mine and will only work with 3 wires, that 4th wire is that ground to earth in the breaker box and the ground fault and sub panel has to use it, you can also wire a ground fault to a 3 wire box but it's wired different
Click to expand...
I disagree, I believe you can do a four wire, with or w/o GFCI, in that panel. For no GFCI, the ground and neutral wires both connect to the same bus in the panel. For a GFCI, the load side neutral connects to the neutral terminal on the GFCI breaker, and the GFCI pigtail connects to the common bus, as does the load side ground.

Brew on :mug:
 
So, if my main box inside the house has the bonded neutral and ground, and the same is true in the outdoor subpanel where we had a 30a GFCI installed to protect the receptacle we planned to use, that receptacle would properly power the previous appliance but throw the main indoor breaker if connected to the new appliance? If that's so, then would I be able to get the newly built appliance (the PJ design) to be compatible with the outdoor subpanel by driving a new ground pole and rewiring the GFCI accordingly?

For the record, I plan to hire an electrician for this, I just want to try to understand as much about it as I can so that I can meaningfully describe my needs to him.
 
So, you're saying I could just move the ground lug attached to the appliance enclosure off the ground supply wire and attach them to the line 2 supply wire instead? Am I understanding that right?

Are there advantages to adding an 8 foot ground pole inslead?
 
Ozarks_Mountain_Brew said:
for reference this is a box I made for someone recently, it works with the breaker box I showed above

View attachment 580894
Click to expand...
That design has a hard wired ground fault. It's not gonna work with a properly wired GFCI on the supply side of it. And if you modify the GFCI wiring so it will work, you might as well leave the GFCI out altogether, as it will not provide any ground fault protection.

Brew on :mug:
 
TheMerkle said:
So, you're saying I could just move the ground lug attached to the appliance enclosure off the ground supply wire and attach them to the line 2 supply wire instead? Am I understanding that right?

I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you are proposing, but if you are saying what I think you are saying, then NO.

Are there advantages to adding an 8 foot ground pole inslead?
Click to expand...

Ask you electrician whether or not code requires you to add a secondary ground. That issue is above my pay grade.

Brew on :mug:
 
I fully understand now that, with the ground and neutral bonded a second time in the outdoor subpanel, the GFCI installed there can't work properly. What I don't understand is why my original electrician would run 4 wires from the house to the garage, and not attach them to separate busses in the subpanel.

This weekend my new electrician should be able to tell me if separating the ground and neutral in the subpanel will require a new ground pole and a fourth bus bar installed outside, or if we just need the fourth bus bar and we can use the ground coming from the main panel.

That should have the GFCI operating correctly, and only then will any further efforts on the new appliance continue. That said, hopefully the GFCI is the only problem with the appliance in the first place :)
 
Let me see if I have your structure wiring correct:
  • Your main service panel (the one where the power comes in from the utility) has a 30A, non-GFCI breaker.
  • You had a sub-panel added in your brewing area that contains a 30A, GFCI breaker.
  • The wiring from your main panel to your sub-panel is 4-wire, fed from the 30A breaker in the main panel.
  • Neutral and ground are bonded (connected) together in your main panel.
  • Neutral and ground are isolated from each other in your sub-panel.
  • There is a 4-wire cable from your sub-panel to your 4-slot outlet.
Is all of the above correct? Is your sub-panel in a separate building from the main panel?

Note: I think I was confused earlier, and thought your first panel was plugged into a 3-slot outlet.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Let me see if I have your structure wiring correct:
  • Your main service panel (the one where the power comes in from the utility) has a 30A, non-GFCI breaker.
  • You had a sub-panel added in your brewing area that contains a 30A, GFCI breaker.
  • The wiring from your main panel to your sub-panel is 4-wire, fed from the 30A breaker in the main panel.
  • Neutral and ground are bonded (connected) together in your main panel.
  • Neutral and ground are isolated from each other in your sub-panel.
  • There is a 4-wire cable from your sub-panel to your 4-slot outlet.
Is all of the above correct? Is your sub-panel in a separate building from the main panel?

Note: I think I was confused earlier, and thought your first panel was plugged into a 3-slot outlet.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

Sorry if I was unclear, Doug. Let me see if I can answer all your bulletpoints in order:

  • My main service panel, and by "my" I mean my brew partner's, is a 100A service with a (I believe) 60A non GFCI breaker powering the subpanel in the garage, where the brewery is housed.
  • We had electrician add a 30A GFCI breaker to the subpanel outside to power the first appliance we built a few year's ago using your design.
  • The wire from the 60A breaker in the main panel feeding to the subpanel is four wire, including a bare copper ground.
  • With said brew partner out of country, I have access to the garage and brewery, but not to the house. I am assuming that the neutral and ground are bonded in the main panel. It is my understanding that this is required in residential panels where the service comes into the home.
  • Neutral and ground are NOT isolated in the subpanel outside. Neutral and ground are bonded at the same bus bar.
  • There is a four wire cable from the subpanel 30A GFCI to the 4-slot outlet we used for the previous appliance, and are trying to use again for the new appliance.
  • The main panel in the house, and the subpanel in the garage are in separate buildings.
  • When building the first appliance, I modified your design and used a 4-prong dryer plug and simply taped up the neutral supply wire and did not use it.
 
Thanks for the detailed answers. One thing I am still not sure of: when you turn on the main power switch, is it the 30A GFCI breaker in the sub-panel that is tripping, or the 60A standard breaker in the main panel?

Also, is there any chance that the 60A breaker in the main panel is a GFCI breaker? I ask because having the ground and neutral connected inside the sub-panel would most likely trigger a main panel GFCI to trip.

Since the sub-panel is in a separate building, code may require it to have it's own earth grounding rod. Here is where my knowledge runs out; I don't know exactly what situations require the secondary ground rod.

Brew on :mug:
 
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When I turn on the main power keyswitch on the appliance, the main panel 60A standard (it's definitely not GFCI) and the subpanel 30A GFCI BOTH trip.

I'm pretty certain that isolating the ground and neutral from one another in the subpanel will resolve my issues, and looking at the relatively low cost of driving a new ground pole, I think I may go ahead and do it whether its required by code or not.
 
I still think that there is something more than just the connected ground/neutral in the sub-panel. Isolating them will prevent the GFCI from tripping, but the GFCI tripping should not cause the 60A main panel breaker to trip (when you test a GFCI outlet, the associated panel breaker doesn't trip.)

I think you should test the voltages on your 4-slot, 240V outlet. I'll try to put together a quick drawing of what the voltages should be between each pair of slots.

Brew on :mug:
 
Since the new appliance uses separate 110 and 220 circuits, it needs neutral to return one circuit and ground to return the other. Since they are bonded in the subpanel, the main breaker seems this is a hot to hot short and throws the main breaker.
 
TheMerkle said:
Since the new appliance uses separate 110 and 220 circuits, it needs neutral to return one circuit and ground to return the other. Since they are bonded in the subpanel, the main breaker seems this is a hot to hot short and throws the main breaker.
Click to expand...
The 240V loads do not have any current flowing thru the neutral wire. The 120V load return current flows thru the neutral (unless you have balanced 120V loads running off of each hot.) None of the load current should flow thru the ground. The ground should only carry current if something is leaking to it, or shorted to it. The problem with connecting the ground and neutral in the sub-panel is that the 120V return current will get split between the ground and neutral connections back to the main panel. This isn't allowed by code, but the more that I think about it, it also shouldn't trip the GFCI in the sub-panel (if the GFCI is wired correctly.)

Do you have a locking (curved slots) or non-locking (straight slots) plug/receptacle combo?

Brew on :mug:
 
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Assuming you have a non-locking plug/receptacle, the voltages at the plug should read as below:

14-30 Receptacle Voltages.jpeg


Voltage between ground and neutral should be very close to zero, and voltage from ground to either hot should be 120V (just like for neutral.)

Brew on :mug:
 
I was thinking this ^^^^^ earlier when I inquired about a pinout diagram for his contactors/relays. Also if the coil voltage was 240VAC vs 120VAC as the wiring for both are different.
 
I attached a photo of the relays I've used. Are the relays sensitive to polarity? ...or do they just work like switches and close the circuit?
 

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Polarity as far as L1 L2 IN and L1 L2 OUT no, however these should be kept consistent as it is easier to do diagnostics when problems arise. The concern would be as @Ischiavo mentions if you have L1 IN and L2 IN (on the OUT pin) on the same side of the contactor/ relay then that is a problem.
One way to check would be remove the L1 L2 terminals OUT (which feed the other 2 contacors /relays) tape them off or otherwise isolate them and only leave what you figure is the IN L1 L2 connected and switch the keyed switch on. This isolates the 240V from the 120V side and leaves you with the 120V circuit as hot and of course the L1 L2 feeding IN to the relay as well as the coil if it is in fact 120VAC.
Also as @doug293cz mentions above if you have a mixup on the 4 wire receptacle you may be thinking you have L1 and L2 but could in fact have a neutral or ground swapped at the receptacle or plug .
 
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I had not considered that. For some reason I took one glance at this thing and I was certain I understood the pin out... though now it has just occurred to me that I'm not sure at all...
 
I had not considered that. For some reason I took one glance at this thing and I was certain I understood the pin out... though now it has just occurred to me that I'm not sure at all...
 
Yep, you've nailed it. I've wired the relays incorrectly, and I have no good excuse because I used the exact same relay on the previous appliance and apparently got it right that time. I will fix the wiring, and repair my GFCI then test and update you guys within a few days. Thanks again!
 
So, I rewired the panel using the correct pinout configuration on the relays and I had an electrician review the wiring in my panels and guarantee that the GFCI breaker is operating as intended. Everything fired right up and operated perfectly. Thanks for all of your help!
 
TheMerkle said:
So, I rewired the panel using the correct pinout configuration on the relays and I had an electrician review the wiring in my panels and guarantee that the GFCI breaker is operating as intended. Everything fired right up and operated perfectly. Thanks for all of your help!
Click to expand...
Happy brewing...or hoppy brewing what ever you like. Lol
 

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