Control Panel Design

[Summy]

Thanks P-J, I'll get one...or better yet I'll borrow one from neighbor who has every tool imaginable. Hopefully he can show me how to use it too.

 

[EarthBound]

I have all of the parts and have wired the 3-prong dryer outlet up. Now I am in the spa panel trying to wire it up. I am using a plain old 3 prong dryer cord, but am confused by the end with the wires... How do I know which wire is which? They are all the same and they all have a connector (circle) on the end. Your diagram shows yellow, red and blue. I have no colors or other markings on my dryer cord. Help!

Summy, you said you were attempting to wire up a spa panel, and you don't even have a multimeter. That is no good.

Do not depend on the people of this forum to ensure for you that you are doing this the correct/safe way. I suggest you physically find someone with the know-how to help you out.

 

[Summy]

Last question for the night P-J. In your wiring diagram on pg. 2 of this thread, you use the following colors: yellow=neutral (center wire for me) , red= ? (you have "Line 2" on diagram on pg. 1), and the third color I think is black (or blue)(which you have described as "Line 1" in diagram on pg.1) which = ? I would assume both are hot, but does red have a particular reading on the meter and black/blue a different?
AND... double-checking with my wiring of the 3-prong dryer outlet, it says to hook the "neutral (white) wire to silver colored terminal [which I had in my conduit wire], and the hot (black and red) wires, one to each copper colored terminal". I did have a black wire in the conduit, but not a red. I had a bare copper wire that was the same size as the other two (white and black). Am I correct in that that is the "red" wire?
Thanks again for everybody's help. I do have somebody locally who has gone electric and he is helping as best he can. He only has a two keggle system with a single element and is familiar with that setup. And I will be having an electrician checking up on all of my work before powering up.

 

[P-J]

Ok, An explanation. Typical 240v wiring is shown in 4 colors. White is the neutral (I show it as yellow because white does not show up on a white background). Line 1 is black and is 120V to neutral. Line 2 is red and is 120V to neutral with the phase oposite line 1. The potential between the black conductor (line 1) and the red conductor (line 2) is 240V (and each measures 120V to neutral). The grounding conductor is green or it can be a bare wire within a cable.

So, if you use the meter to measure voltage, you would see 120V between neutral (or ground) and line 1. The same when measuring between line 2 and neutral (or ground). When you measure between line 1 and line 2 you will see 240V.

Now comes a basic problem when SOME people do wiring. They choose a cable or wire that is not color coded for the installation being performed. Typically, a 3 wire cable (romex) has a black. white and bare conductor in it. A lot of times (that I've seen) the cable is simply hooked up to deliver 240V and that's it. To me that is patently wrong. They should have flagged the wires on both ends to represent the power being delivered. Black is black. Red tape on the white wire. The bare wire in this case would be either neutral or ground.

So: for your case I would strongly suspect that the black wire is line 1, the white is line 2 and the bare wire would be neutral.

You really NEED to get your hands on a volt meter.

Oh, and buy a package of colored electrical tape so that you can flag the wiring (on BOTH ends) as you go along. HD Link to tape This way there is no guess work for the next time or for the next person involved.

P-J

 

[Summy]

I think you're right P-J because looking at the way the wire was wired into the hot water heater (for the past 9 years +), it (the heater) has a red and black wire and the ground screw. The bare wire (from romex) had been attached to the ground screw and the white and black to the red and black wires in the hot water heater. Unfortunately I can't recall which red/black(water heater) was attached to which black/white(romex)? So I'm thinking I know that, at least, I'm gonna have to switch the wiring in my 3-prong dryer outlet--(bare wire[neutral/ground] to the silver colored terminal and the white to it's copper colored terminal). Does it matter which copper-colored terminal I connect my black and white romex wire to?
I will be going next door to borrow my neighbor's volt meter this AM.

 

[P-J]

Please buy some colored tape so that you can flag the wiring as appropriate before you button it up..

To answer you question: No it does not matter. The 2 "copper" colored (actually brass) terminals are the 240V input terminals.

 

[Summy]

I'm on it today. Will pick up the tape at my Hardware while I'm out. Also, while I was down there re-wiring the dryer outlet, I noticed in the hot water heater panel several wires connected in it's panel. There was yellow, black, red, and blue. I thought I could use them to wire up the recessed female outlet on the outgoing side of the spa panel? They all read "12AWG AWM STYLE 1015 OR 1230 105*C 600V VWI DIXIEWIRE (C)" Are they OK to use for that?
Also, don't know if I mentioned or not, but the control panel is going to be one of Marcus'. So, I won't be messing around with any of that wiring within the control panel, just the wiring to it.

 

[ekjohns]

digging up an old thread with a simple question. It seems a lot of people use 10 AWG 4/C wire for running 240V power to control panel. With a 5500W element that would be 23A. It seems that 10/3 wire is rated to 30A but 10/4 is only rated to 25A. I don't understand the difference but assume it is due to heat. If using 10/4 you are running the wire at 92% of max which is over the 80% recommended. Is this still safe or should I look at 8/4 ($$$$ OUCH!)

 

[P-J]

digging up an old thread with a simple question. It seems a lot of people use 10 AWG 4/C wire for running 240V power to control panel. With a 5500W element that would be 23A. It seems that 10/3 wire is rated to 30A but 10/4 is only rated to 25A. I don't understand the difference but assume it is due to heat. If using 10/4 you are running the wire at 92% of max which is over the 80% recommended. Is this still safe or should I look at 8/4 ($$$$ OUCH!)

How about posting links to the cables that you speak of? There are many, many different cables and the specks "depends". First one being: Power supplied to a single outlet is very different than a circuit providing power to multi outlets. Second being: The total distance between the power panel and the outlet + the current draw also effects the amp rating of the cable. Third being: What is the duty cycle of the load? An hour? 2? 3? That also effects the current carrying capability.

In your situation?? Is it the correct cable? I really think you are A-Ok.
But? Answer the questions first. (i.e. - Is the run a hundred feet ++?)

Another thing: The 80% rule? Please read deeper into the NEC code.

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So sorry. I apologize. I'm out of control with my mind spinning.
I'll post this anyway. Sorry.. (I really think you are A-Ok using that cable for a brewery setup.) Sigh!!

P-J

 

[ekjohns]

P-J thanks for the reply. Here is a link to the wire Lowes. length would be 30-40'. Run for 3 hrs. The way I plan to hook it up would be:

dryer outlet - dryer cord (6') - Spa panel - 10/4 wire (30-40') - control panel

 

[ekjohns]

Another thing: The 80% rule? Please read deeper into the NEC code.

I found this link where in note 4 they say 4 wires should not exceed 80% is this out of date or am I missing something (not meant to be rude in the slightest degree, just trying to get my ducks in line and safe as possible).

 

[P-J]

P-J thanks for the reply. Here is a link to the wire Lowes. length would be 30-40'. Run for 3 hrs. The way I plan to hook it up would be:

dryer outlet - dryer cord (6') - Spa panel - 10/4 wire (30-40') - control panel

I believe you will be A-Ok with that.

P-J

 

[porcupine73]

If the four wires were the three phases plus a neutral, then it becomes more than three current carrying conductors. But if it is the three phase conductors and a ground, that is only three current carrying conductors.

 

[ekjohns]

Cool. Thank you both for the help

 

[rack04]

P-J thanks for the reply. Here is a link to the wire Lowes. length would be 30-40'. Run for 3 hrs. The way I plan to hook it up would be:

dryer outlet - dryer cord (6') - Spa panel - 10/4 wire (30-40') - control panel

Are you sure this is 4 wire? In the picture there is black, white, and green.