control flavor progression and finish

[fingling5]

Did a search. Didnt come up with anything.

So what I'd like to do is tweak how the different flavors progress on the tongue. I have a malty amber that is very popular and I like it alot as well. But its just not perfect enough for me. Malty rich sweet smoothness comes on in the middle of the flavor progression. Slight hop bite in the beginning from bittering addition. Finishing with kind of a friuty tartness at the end. I like all these flavors together for this beer. But I'd like the fruity tartness to come on after first hop bite then finish malty creamy.

So I guess what im asking is: do any of you know how to tailor the flavor progression of your beers. Are there techniques for this? Just curious.

 

[fingling5]

I should add that this is not another hopped up amber. Im going for a rich complex malt profile with balanced hop accents. My favorite type of amber.

 

[fingling5]

Is this the wrong forum section? Did I not state the question well enough?

 

[Yooper]

Normally, aging fixes that "progression" as the flavors meld.

It's possible that a high fermentation temperature would mean the fruity flavor being prominent in the finish, but as the beer ages out a bit, the malty/bitter front notes should meld together well.

If that's not happening, I'd have to consider the recipe as well as water chemstry impeding that.

 

[jro238]

Should be the right place...I think it's just a complex question.

What is your process (recipe, yeast, fermentation temp)? This will make it a little easier to figure out.

 

[fingling5]

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.89 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.19 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 13.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 77.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Maris Otter (Crisp) (4.0 SRM) Grain 1 57.7 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 2 12.4 %
8 oz Cara Ruby 50 (Castle Malting) (25.4 SRM) Grain 3 6.2 %
8.0 oz Crystal 60, 2-Row, (Crisp) (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.2 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 7 4.1 %
6.0 oz Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) Grain 8 3.1 %
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - First Wort 60 Hop 9 14.8 IBUs
0.40 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 3.5 IBUs
0.25 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 4.7 IBUs
0.40 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 1.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 1.9 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 14 -

Mashed at 152 for 60min.
Pitched 1.5 rehydrated packs US-05 at 63deg F.
Ferment at 63 for 4 days. Raise 1 degree per day to 67 and hold for 15 days.

Water is from tap. Comes from mountains. Very clean. Very low in almost everything. As a matter of fact, I have to use gypsum for any chance at success on hoppy beers. Otherwise hops don't pop. Can post report. But this beer isn't supposed to be hoppy so I don't think I added any water amendments.

Just trying to change the flavor progression on the tongue. I really want this beer to finish smooth malty creamy after you get hit with initial hop flavor.

 

[fingling5]

Ah hell, might as well post the water report as well. I don't see too many water profiles like mine posted here. Maybe someone may be interested in commenting on it.

Thanks for taking a look by the way. I have learned an incredible amount on these forums, I just don't post often. Well...hardly ever I guess




pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 38
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.06
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.7 / 0.4
ppm
Sodium, Na 5
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 6
Magnesium, Mg 2
Total Hardness, CaCO3 23
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S < 1
Chloride, Cl 5
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 16
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 13
Total Phosphorus, P 0.34
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[Yooper]

The recipe is unusual- that is a ton of crystal malt- over 22%. It looks malty sweet, as in "hurts my teeth" sweet. The bittering hops would counteract some of that sweetness, but that's asking alot of a small FWH addition for the only bittering hops.

I'm not a fan of the recipe, and that could be one of the issues with the lack of depth and melding in the flavor. Your recipe source is suspect, I think.

The fruity tartness probably comes at the end of the swallow due to the nelson sauvin hops. That wouldn't change, because it's just a character of that hop variety. Also, I get a ton of peachy esters from S05 at under 65 degrees, and that's in the aftertaste as well and one of the reasons I rarely use S05 unless I ferment it at 68 degrees.

 

[fingling5]

Ha Ha. Sorry, posted the wrong recipe. That was a garbage recipe, thought it had been deleted. Yup that's a bit too much crystal The actual recipe is 8oz of ruby and crystal 60. That Cara Ruby has great color. And no, the actual recipe is not too sweet. Edited original post.

I appreciate the info on the 05. I'd read something about that a while back and I guess I didn't pay enough attention. Had 4 different brews going at the same time and thought I'd be alright running the 05 cold. Hadn't had an issue before. And that is probably most of the problem. Didn't have that issue with lingering fruity tart the last 2 times I brewed this beer.

I actually tried the nelson in order to add a bit of dry tartness and in the previous two batches, it worked well with the toffee hints from the crystal. I'm just trying to get the malt to linger a little longer than the hops.

I think St. Lupulin from O'dell is a good example of this. Comes on hoppy but after the hops hit your nose and tongue it finishes a bit malty and chewy. At least to my taste.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

You might try using a different yeast that really brings out good malt characteristics. I really like using WLP011 european ale yeast for malt-forward ales as the brew comes out with an almost silky texture and nice malt body even in spite of dryness. Other than that, how young are you enjoying these? How are they conditioning etc?

My only other thoughts would be to give it the scotch ale treatment and take a gallon or half-gallon of first runnings and boil that separately until very thick and viscous before adding to the boil to get some various maillard reactions and caramelization flavors out of the wort, when I think malty long finish I think scotch ale.

 

[Brewtah]

Seems like you need to do some research on where the taste receptors are located on the tongue. Naturally receptors at the back of the tongue will be a secondary taste. Sweet at tip bitter at back. So shape of glass is very important too. For instance if you drink an IPA from a bottle it will taste more bitter. Out of a glass focused to hit mid mouth it will be less bitter.
Check out the shape of wine glasses. Each one has a purpose. One purpose is where the wine hits your tongue.

 

[Wynne-R]

Research? Like this?

The tongue map or taste map is a common misconception that different sections of the tongue are exclusively responsible for different basic tastes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue_map

 

[Brewtah]

Research? Like this?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue_map

The key there is "exclusively". The areas in the tongue that we are talking about are not exclusive to either salt, sweet, bitter, etc. The point of the post was to point out there is more to our perceived "progression of taste", than the recipe. Obviously the ingredients make the most difference in how we taste, but there is more to it, including smell.

 

[emjay]

The key there is "exclusively". The areas in the tongue that we are talking about are not exclusive to either salt, sweet, bitter, etc. The point of the post was to point out there is more to our perceived "progression of taste", than the recipe. Obviously the ingredients make the most difference in how we taste, but there is more to it, including smell.

Did you even read the page?

"So, while some parts of the tongue may be able to detect a taste before the others do, all parts are equally good at conveying the qualia of all tastes. Threshold sensitivity may differ across the tongue,[6] but intensity of sensation does not."

 

[TAK]

I would recomend playing with the temp that you serve the beer at too.

Also, carbonation levels will affect the taste, particularly the role of bitterness, I find.

 

[fingling5]

Thanx everyone for the responses. Though I'm sure there is ample science regarding the tongue and taste perception, receptors, etc., I don't think I'm gonna get too deep into that as it doesn't seem all that practical for me at this point. Thanks for the info though - very interesting stuff.

I think I'm gonna be experimenting with different yeasts. Poor options for HBS stores in my area, the nearest being an hour and a half away. Admittedly I've gotten a little reliant on the convenience of dry yeasts. Time to order some yeast, I guess. Just wish the liquids kept longer.

I'll try the wlp011. Any other recommendations for malt forward yeasts?