Consistently disappointed with hop aroma

[MrEggSandwich]

Exactly, that’s why the highly flocculent yeasts are good cause you don’t need to crash them to get get them to flocc. 002/1968 will go clear at fermentation temps. Issue with this yeasts is you need to make sure you can keep the temp at 66 or under. They ferment super fast and create a lot of heat and can get really weird even at 68. There are plenty of people that use the balloon method or have devised other ways to maintain positive pressure while crashing. Probably the biggest benefit to even the chronicals. They can only handle about 2-3 psi but it’s enough to keep O2 out when crashing to at least moderate temps.

The more yeast you can get out of the beer before dry hopping the more explosive the aroma will be. Just gotta keep o2 pickup to a minimum.

Word. I have the "Cold Crash Guardian" from Bobby @ Brewhardware. Didn't use it this time around...Will do next time.

 

[MrPowers]

Dry hopped for 5 days at 66 degrees. +2 weeks is when hops were added. Pellet hops in bags. I’ve used shot glasses in past to weigh bags down. (That hasn’t helped)

It could be due to the fact that you are dry hopping with pellets in bags. Shot glasses to weigh the hops down help, but you’re probably not getting the surface area contact necessary for good extraction unless you are using HUGE bags.

How compressed are the bags when you take them out after you keg?

 

[kevink]

Everyone seems to think that weighing a hop bag down helps, but I think it has the opposite effect. Think about it. The bag is being pulled from the bottom and top, effectively making the volume inside the bag near zero. I really believe that not weighing the bag is much better since the bag is allowed to free-float and the expanding hops are able to fill and expand the bag. Expanding hops is a bag that is pulled tightly from a weight in the bottom of it and a string on the top is not good.

Why do people weigh hop bags? Is it because they believe the hops won't sink if they're in a bag for some reason? They sink when they aren't in a bag, so they'll get submerged if they are in a bag. That being said, the best option is no bag at all.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

It could be due to the fact that you are dry hopping with pellets in bags. Shot glasses to weigh the hops down help, but you’re probably not getting the surface area contact necessary for good extraction unless you are using HUGE bags.

How compressed are the bags when you take them out after you keg?

I use grain socks for this batch. Two, each filled with 3 oz of pellets...Should be plenty of room to expand. There were not compressed..

 

[couchsending]

not to high jack, but...how many times should a person vent a keg to properly purge it? say, at 8 psi on the regulator?

Technically

11-12 times at 30 psi gets you close to zero O2 I believe.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

It's got a nice carb on it now....tasting it...it's a nice danky with some fruity...No aroma...Would have thought the citra/el dorado fruitiness would come through a lot more considering large whirlpool and dry hop.

 

[kevink]

I hate to say it, but for a NEIPA, it looks oxidized. Maybe the Pearl is contributing, but it just doesn't look right.

 

[bracconiere]

Technically

11-12 times at 30 psi gets you close to zero O2 I believe.

thanks

 

[doug293cz]

not to high jack, but...how many times should a person vent a keg to properly purge it? say, at 8 psi on the regulator?

Technically

11-12 times at 30 psi gets you close to zero O2 I believe.

Data below assumes headspace starts out as all air. Volume of headspace does not matter, as it's based on volume/volume not total mass of remaining O2.

Brew on

 

[bracconiere]

Data below assumes headspace starts out as all air. Volume of headspace does not matter, as it's based on volume/volume not total mass of remaining O2.

View attachment 635045 View attachment 635047

Brew on

Guess i'm going to have to get a valve to switch my co2 tank to purge kegs with....thank you again for the info!

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

It's got a nice carb on it now....tasting it...it's a nice danky with some fruity...No aroma...Would have thought the citra/el dorado fruitiness would come through a lot more considering large whirlpool and dry hop.

Any detection of DMS? you've got a modest amount of Pilsner malt in there... 90 min boils are safer. The "corn" can kill the aroma.

My HBS owner mentioned some Pilsner malts are fine these days, but I do 75 min boils minimum just because of my system.

 

[balrog]

All you need is something so that when the beer contracts...more than the volume of beer

While the beer will shrink during chilling a little, the volume that the gas in headspace contracts is significantly more. Carry on.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

I hate to say it, but for a NEIPA, it looks oxidized. Maybe the Pearl is contributing, but it just doesn't look right.

If it's oxidized, then I give up. I don't do secondarys, dry hop in primary, and Co2 closed transfer.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Any detection of DMS? you've got a modest amount of Pilsner malt in there... 90 min boils are safer. The "corn" can kill the aroma.

My HBS owner mentioned some Pilsner malts are fine these days, but I do 75 min boils minimum just because of my system.

Thanks for the feedback....Will taste later this week and get back.

 

[Paulaner]

If it's oxidized, then I give up. I don't do secondarys, dry hop in primary, and Co2 closed transfer.

On the hot side you're oxidizing it, you're getting the herbstoffe from your hops and not the good hop flavor/bitterness. There's a sub-forum under All Grain & Partial Mash brewing that can fix this problem. If you have no interest in this rabbit hole great, and good luck with your beer.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

On the hot side you're oxidizing it, you're getting the herbstoffe from your hops and not the good hop flavor/bitterness. There's a sub-forum under All Grain & Partial Mash brewing that can fix this problem. If you have no interest in this rabbit hole great, and good luck with your beer.

Thank you. Will check it out.

 

[couchsending]

On the hot side you're oxidizing it, you're getting the herbstoffe from your hops and not the good hop flavor/bitterness. There's a sub-forum under All Grain & Partial Mash brewing that can fix this problem. If you have no interest in this rabbit hole great, and good luck with your beer.

I’d be willing to bet very few great commercial hoppy beers that the OP has had was made using low O2 techniques on the hotside. The only breweries employing that in the US are the largest ones that have to ship their beer all over the US and have it sit on shelves forever. Sierra Nevada for sure, maybe Firestone.

Don’t get me wrong I practice as many low O2 techniques as possible for all beers but that’s not why the OP is having hop aroma issues and there’s no way that beer is oxidized, it’s lighting.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, it is truly appreciated. Don't mean to sound frustrated/unappreciative, but we all put tons of time (and $$$) into these beers, and it seems like there is always some sort of brewing boogeyman that I need to watch out for that will ruin my beer.

I will check out the hot-side oxidation as a possible issue. Will keep this thread going as the beer ages....We will see.

Again- Not expecting Heady Topper/Hill Farmstead here, but a touch of hop "clarity" would be nice. At this time, it tastes like a muddled mess to me. There is some dankness from the Apollo, but I really though the El Dorado/Citra would shine here.

That being said, I will drink it all.

 

[Paulaner]

I’d be willing to bet very few great commercial hoppy beers that the OP has had was made using low O2 techniques on the hotside. The only breweries employing that in the US are the largest ones that have to ship their beer all over the US and have it sit on shelves forever. Sierra Nevada for sure, maybe Firestone.

Don’t get me wrong I practice as many low O2 techniques as possible for all beers but that’s not why the OP is having hop aroma issues and there’s no way that beer is oxidized, it’s lighting.

That's some very bold statements based on anecdotal evidence. I am not looking to argue, but are we not all trying to help out in the pursuit of great beer? There is not one simple answer to fix this problem of low hop flavors. Like all beer, it's the sum of all the production, to rule out one part of the sum, probably isn't the most intelligent response anyone here can give, myself included. The great thing about the sub-forum I referenced is the focus on all the different aspects of brewing and not one particular item like it may be perceived by so many as.

 

[couchsending]

I’m pretty comfortable making those statements. I can tell you personally of two brewers/breweries that have won gold at GABF for their hoppy beers many times don’t employ any of the techniques you guys preach about.

They don’t condition their malt
They don’t underlet their mash
They don’t preboil their water
They don’t use any antioxidants

But of course your response would be their beer could be even better right? OP would probably be stoked to make beers near as good as those guys do. That’s all we’re trying to solve here.

I’ve learned a ton about brewing from the low O2 forums and site. It’s not that I don’t believe in it, it’s just that there are plenty of world class beers made that don’t do any of it, especially hoppy beers. Much lighter beers where malt needs to shine and there is nowhere for anything to hide, then sure it would be much more beneficial.

The issue I have with so many in the low O2 community is the arrogance. So many of you come off as the most arrogant people I’ve ever interacted with online across all sorts of forums.

 

[kevink]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, it is truly appreciated. Don't mean to sound frustrated/unappreciative, but we all put tons of time (and $$$) into these beers, and it seems like there is always some sort of brewing boogeyman that I need to watch out for that will ruin my beer.

I will check out the hot-side oxidation as a possible issue. Will keep this thread going as the beer ages....We will see.

Again- Not expecting Heady Topper/Hill Farmstead here, but a touch of hop "clarity" would be nice. At this time, it tastes like a muddled mess to me. There is some dankness from the Apollo, but I really though the El Dorado/Citra would shine here.

That being said, I will drink it all.

There is absolutely no reason you should not expect aroma like Alchemist or Hill. Once you get it figured out, you will prefer your beer to almost anything.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

There is absolutely no reason you should not expect aroma like Alchemist or Hill. Once you get it figured out, you will prefer your beer to almost anything.

Thanks dude! It's just frustrating given the amount of time/$ invested in Cleaning/Sanitation, Hop storage, Fermentation temps, dry hopping, Water Chem/mash Ph, Closed transfers.....Scratching my head over here.

Have dried Cryo hops, sinking hop bags with shot glasses, cold crashing, not cold crashing.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

I’m pretty comfortable making those statements. I can tell you personally of two brewers/breweries that have won golf at GABF for their hoppy beers many times don’t employ any of the techniques you guys preach about.

They don’t condition their malt
They don’t underlet their mash
They don’t preboil their water
They don’t use any antioxidants

But of course your response would be their beer could be even better right? OP would probably be stoked to make beers near as good as those guys do. That’s all we’re trying to solve here.

I’ve learned a ton about brewing from the low O2 forums and site. It’s not that I don’t believe in it, it’s just that there are plenty of world class beers made that don’t do any of it, especially hoppy beers. Much lighter beers where malt needs to shine and there is nowhere for anything to hide, then sure it would be much more beneficial.

The issue I have with so many in the low O2 community is the arrogance. So many of you come off as the most arrogant people I’ve ever interacted with online across all sorts of forums.

Let's assume for a second that it is oxidation, and all my IPAs are a victim. Would it happen post boil? During whirpool?

 

[kevink]

Post fermentation

 

[isomerization]

Have you tried using different yeasts?

If so, are you getting the same lack of hop aroma (and possible darkening) with those yeasts?

For me at least, 1318 seems to be very generous in its ability to scavenge O2 post ferm (may not be what’s actually occurring).

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Have you tried using different yeasts?

If so, are you getting the same lack of hop aroma (and possible darkening) with those yeasts?

For me at least, 1318 seems to be very generous in its ability to scavenge O2 post ferm (may not be what’s actually occurring).

Yup. Last 3 IPAs:

Yeasts used:

-Omega DIPA (most recent)
-Imperial Joystick (Huge Dry Hop - 4+ oz El Dorado + 3+ oz Amarillo. Weighed down with shot glass.)
-OMEGA YEAST BRITISH ALE V OYL-011 (Compares to WY1318 (London Ale III)....For this brew I did two dry hop additions (1oz Citra Cryo hops at tail end of fermentation + 2 more oz of Citra Cryo + 6 days later. Then cold crashed and kegged.

I am baffled.

 

[isomerization]

Have you tried fermenting AND serving in the same corny keg? You can get a clear beer draught system for $40ish. Dry hop (no bag) and remove blow off with a few points left. Might help narrow down potential culprit as should be zero cold side oxidation potential.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Have you tried fermenting AND serving in the same corny keg? You can get a clear beer draught system for $40ish. Dry hop (no bag) and remove blow off with a few points left. Might help narrow down potential culprit as should be zero cold side oxidation potential.

This. Personally, I went down the LODO rabbit hole for while. The hot-side stuff definitely changed my malt-driven beers (not to my liking though), but had no impact on the hoppy beers. So, I ditched hot-side LODO but kept all the cold-side stuff. I moved to fermenting in kegs with floating dip tubes (with filter screen; total cost of ~$25 CAD), spunding and all that. Have even served beer from the fermenter keg. Works fantastic for excluding O2 on the cold side and was magic for my hoppy beers. What I tend to find now is that if my beer is lacking hop aroma I can usually point my finger at the quality of the hops.

 

[doug293cz]

This is not the place to discuss/debate Low Oxygen Brewing. There is a separate subforum for that. OP has been made aware of that subforum, so no more discussion here. Any future posts in this thread about LoDO will be deleted.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[MrEggSandwich]

1 Week in keg- Color is fine. It's not oxidized. Slightly hazy..No aroma.