Conflicting Water Calculator Results

[EyePeeA]

Please help me to determine what is going wrong here, and which route to take.

Goal:

Brewing Heady Topper, a Double IPA with extremely high hardness - The target water profile illustrates Na & Cl to both be under 40 mg/L, virtually no magnesium, negative 114 Alkalinity, a starting water pH of 6.8, and a mash pH of 4.8. There are rumors of 750ppm hardness, but I'm not sure I want to go that high. I might try 500 ppm though!!

Grist:

12# Pearl Malt, Fawcett, 2.55 Lovibond
14 oz. Wheat Malt, CMC, 2.55 Lovibond
12 oz. Caramalt, Fawcett, 12.0 Lovibond
14 oz. Dextrose

H20 Brew Volume:

19 liters BIAB mash in main kettle
9.5 liters dunk sparge in a secondary kettle
28.5 total liters, 50% of which is distilled water

Distilled Water Ratio:

50% or 14.25 Liters (mixed into full volume of cold city water before treating or mashing)

My City Water Profile:

Ca: 24 mg/L
Mg: 9 mg/L
Na: 62 mg/L
Cl: 81 mg/L
SO4: 62 mg/L
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 46 ppm
Hardness: 84
pH: 7.2

EZ Water Calculator 3.0 Results:

33 grams Gypsum
5 ml 88% Lactic Acid
Estimated mash pH: 5.21

Treated water profile is:

Ca: 116
Mg: 5
Na: 31
Cl: 41
SO4: 287
Alkalinity as CaCO3: -59
Hardness: 308
RA: -144

Brewer's Friend Advanced Calculator Results: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

16 grams Gypsum
9 ml 88% Lactic Acid
Estimated mash pH: 5.23

Treated water profile is:

Ca: 110
Mg: 4.5
Na: 31
Cl: 40.5
SO4: 267
Alkalinity as CaCO3: -115
Hardness: 293
RA: -196

I am not totally comfortable using Bru'n Water, but from what I can interpret for a 5.2 pH mash, it is saying:

-More mash water Alkalinity is needed?
-Suggests approx. 11 grams Gypsum
-Suggests approx. 5 ml Lactic Acid

 

[JonM]

The calculators just get you in the ballpark; you need to try it and then make any adjustments on the fly and take notes. Maybe split the difference between the two calculators and see where it gets you.

Oh, and 5.2 is too low a mash pH. Try a little higher.

ETA: Somethings off - 33 grams of gypsum can't be right.

 

[EyePeeA]

The calculators just get you in the ballpark; you need to try it and then make any adjustments on the fly and take notes. Maybe split the difference between the two calculators and see where it gets you.

Oh, and 5.2 is too low a mash pH. Try a little higher.

ETA: Somethings off - 33 grams of gypsum can't be right.

I understand that, but the calculators are wildly different. It wouldn't bother me so much if they were all "roughly" the same.

5.1-5.3 was suggested by the Head Brewer of Heady Topper. He said if you mash at 5.4, you failed. ---youtube.com/watch?v=LdfySDN2mF0--- around 42 minutes in.


That's what I thought too about the gypsum, but a sample of the beer was sent into Ward Labs and it was 750 ppm hardness. But then again, the same sheet showed mash pH said 4.8 so IDK.

 

[The_Bishop]

Is that mash PH measured at mash temps or room temperature? Makes a difference!

 

[EyePeeA]

Is that mash PH measured at mash temps or room temperature? Makes a difference!

I don't think a professional brewery with one of the best IIPAs in the world would test pH at mash temps, but who knows.

 

[Stillraining]

I don't think a professional brewery with one of the best IIPAs in the world would test pH at mash temps, but who knows.

OK now Im really confused...how do you make adjustments on the fly if this is true?

 

[The_Bishop]

It's just at 5.1-5.3 at room temps is somewhere around 4.7-5.0 at mash temps, which is on the low side and could inhibit starch conversion.

 

[JonM]

Ah - I don't k i.e. that specific recipe. Forget what I said.

 

[PeteNMA]

Kimmich has confirmed that he was referring to mash temperature pH not room temperature

Also the heady water profile is reputed to be high chloride with moderate to low sulfate. You'll make good beer with your numbers but you won't make heady

 

[EyePeeA]

Also the heady water profile is reputed to be high chloride with moderate to low sulfate. You'll make good beer with your numbers but you won't make heady

What would you suggest? His chloride level is 35 mg/L, as you can see above. How do you get moderate to low sulfate while also using a ton of calcium sulfate to get 500-750 ppm hardness?

 

[Stillraining]

It's just at 5.1-5.3 at room temps is somewhere around 4.7-5.0 at mash temps, which is on the low side and could inhibit starch conversion.

Gotcha..thanks!.... btw I Love the "Most important forum News" in your sig..

 

[PeteNMA]

Well gypsum doesn't add hardness per se, hardness in water is usually due to dissolved carbonate salts.

Can you post a link to the purported Ward labs analysis of the finished beer? You refer to sodium and Cl levels and hardness but not to sulfate which is key.

You are also correct that a pro brewer is not going to be dunking a pH probe into their mash to measure. They adjust on the fly the same way a home brewer does, by pulling a sample, cooling measuring and adjusting if required.

 

[Stillraining]

Well gypsum doesn't add hardness per se, hardness in water is usually due to dissolved carbonate salts.

Can you post a link to the purported Ward labs analysis of the finished beer? You refer to sodium and Cl levels and hardness but not to sulfate which is key.

You are also correct that a pro brewer is not going to be dunking a pH probe into their mash to measure. They adjust on the fly the same way a home brewer does, by pulling a sample, cooling measuring and adjusting if required.

OK you confused me again...in your previous post you said the head brewer guy was checking his at mash temp
And I concurred from that after the above post from EyePeeA that he corrected for temperature to come up with the right thing to do.

 

[PeteNMA]

No. I said that he is talking about the values at mash temperature. This can be easily calculated. The standard homebrew rule of thumb is that at mash temp your pH is about 0.3 lower than at room temperature.

However due to the way that pH meters work, we make all our measurements at room temperature so we typically refer to mash pH at its measured value at RT for the sake of simplicity.

The video of Kimmich talking and referring to mash pH has been widely discussed as the values he throws out are different from the values home brewers consider normal (5.2-5.5-5.8). However several people have asked him about this and he clarified that he was referring to pH at mash temp. So add 0.3 to his values and you're good to go

 

[Stillraining]

OK clear as frosted glass now thanks..

 

[PeteNMA]

Yeah its a bit confusing and Kimmich didn't exactly help. The TLDR is that he recommends being on the low end of the recommended range, but he doesn't really give useful numbers other than don't go above pH 5.7 at RT.

 

[EyePeeA]

Well gypsum doesn't add hardness per se, hardness in water is usually due to dissolved carbonate salts.

Can you post a link to the purported Ward labs analysis of the finished beer? You refer to sodium and Cl levels and hardness but not to sulfate which is key.

Yes, I know. Hardness for homebrewer's is basically a result of Calcium + Magnesium via the equation: [(Ca/20)+(Mg/12.5)]*50

Since the Magnesium content of the water specs provided earlier was 0 mg/L, and the brewer uses Calcium Sulfate & Calcium Chloride to hit 750 mg/L hardness and 35 mg/L chloride, one can assume that the majority of that hardness is coming from the Calcium Sulfate.

Additional sources for where the 750 ppm talk is coming from:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=481031

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=477834

Now, here's a twist... I personally do not think the mash specs call for 750 mg/L hardness... That is closer to the hardness of the final beer, which is a misleading gauge to go by when treating mash water.

1. The brew sheet shows 750 mg/L hardness, 0 mg/L magnesium. With zero magnesium salt additions, this would mean the actual hardness of the wort is more like 275-350 mg/L, derived purely from calcium sulfate and a tiny bit of calcium chloride. The magnesium later generated in the mash would help to elevate that to the 750 mg/L range.

2. Ward labs shows 746 mg/L hardness, 110 mg/L calcium, and 113 mg/L magnesium IN THE FINISHED BEER. So it is possible to use zero magnesium salts and still attain a very high amount of magnesium in the finished beer.

Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

The video of Kimmich talking and referring to mash pH has been widely discussed as the values he throws out are different from the values home brewers consider normal (5.2-5.5-5.8). However several people have asked him about this and he clarified that he was referring to pH at mash temp. So add 0.3 to his values and you're good to go

If we are talking about the same video (Chop & Brew Episode 22), then he clearly states that 5.1 to 5.3 is the target mash pH. And that if you go 5.4 to 5.6, it's way too high and going to be a muddled mess of an IPA. The water specs on page 1 of this thread shows 4.8 pH (which I assume now is the pH at mash temp). So, this information does actually fall in line.

 

[PeteNMA]

OK. So from your first link re the Ward Labs testing of the finished beer:

pH - 4.3
TDS - 1584
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 2.64
Cations/Anions, me/L - 36.6/20.6**

The pH of the beer is going to be about 1 below the pH of the finished boiled beer, although this is a wild crapshoot and depends a lot on the dry hop additions and the action of the yeast itself. You could build up some empirical data from your own brewing but it's not enough to tell us anything about the pre-fermentation pH

ppm
Sodium, Na - 25
Potassium, K - 802
Calcium, Ca - 110
Magnesium, Mg - 113
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 746
Nitrate, NO3-N - 17.6
Sulfate, SO4-S - 156
Chloride, Cl - 339

Now this is where stuff gets interesting. For one, we see a huge level of Chloride and a much lower level of Sulfate, which suggests that depending on The Alchemist's source water, they are adding some gypsum and a crap ton of calcium chloride.

There's also a lot of magnesium in the finished beer which is noteworthy.

The potassium number is also interesting, and suggests that some sort of potassium salt is being added, but who knows when it is added as it may be a post-production preservative for all we know.

Now if I punch in salt additions in Bru'nWater for my own tap water, targeting 156ppm SO4 and 339ppm Cl, I end up with 640 total hardness. My incoming water actually has a hardness of about 30 so pretty well in line with the brew sheet shown in the mash in video. I'm missing about 100ppm hardness

This doesn't tell the whole story though, as it doesn't follow that all these additions are being made to the mash.

 

[EyePeeA]

For one, we see a huge level of Chloride and a much lower level of Sulfate, which suggests that depending on The Alchemist's source water, they are adding some gypsum and a crap ton of calcium chloride.

There's also a lot of magnesium in the finished beer which is noteworthy. The potassium number is also interesting, and suggests that some sort of potassium salt is being added, but who knows when it is added as it may be a post-production preservative for all we know.

A ton of Chloride, Potassium, and Magnesium are generated in the mash.

Here are the averages for mash generation that I just found from mabrungard in that Heady Topper Thread:

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm

You wouldn't need to add a lot of salts for these to be expressed so largely in the final beer.

For the sulfate, I'm not sure what happens. Maybe it's more volatile? Or maybe it's because they actually use Calcium Sulfate Anhydrous (Plaster of Paris) instead of Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate (Gypsum). "Plaster is created by heating gypsum to about 150ºC. The chemical reaction that follows changes the Gypsum over into Plaster."

 

[PeteNMA]

Will do some brewing and report back some results...

A brief bit of investigation doesn't show any reactions during mashing itself which would consume sulfate ions.

Here's a thought though: what if only the mash water has such a high level of sulfate, and the sparge water is not salted or salted less? Thus diluting the sulfate in the final beer.

Whilst I've not tried heady specifically with these high sulfate numbers, I've certainly tried other beers with very high sulfate numbers and the results have not been pleasant in a chalky, minerally way.

 

[ajdelange]

Well gypsum doesn't add hardness per se,

Yes it does. A millimole/L of gypsum (172.2 mg) adds 2 mEq/L (100 ppm as CaCO3) hardness. This is permanent hardness.

...hardness in water is usually due to dissolved carbonate salts.

That's the temporary hardness. One millimole of calcium carbonate dissolved with carbon dioxide in 1L of water at pH 8.3 yields 2 mEq/L temporary hardness.

They adjust on the fly the same way a home brewer does, by pulling a sample, cooling measuring and adjusting if required.

I don't think you will find many pro brewers doing that. If they check pH at all (and more are doing that today) and find it off a bit they will most probably do nothing but note it, cehck it again the next time they do the same beer and if they find it consistently low make an adjustment to subsequent batches. Pro brewers don't get the kinds of pH surprises home brewers do.

 

[PeteNMA]

Yes it does. A millimole/L of gypsum (172.2 mg) adds 2 mEq/L (100 ppm as CaCO3) hardness. This is permanent hardness.



That's the temporary hardness. One millimole of calcium carbonate dissolved with carbon dioxide in 1L of water at pH 8.3 yields 2 mEq/L temporary hardness.



I don't think you will find many pro brewers doing that. If they check pH at all (and more are doing that today) and find it off a bit they will most probably do nothing but note it, cehck it again the next time they do the same beer and if they find it consistently low make an adjustment to subsequent batches. Pro brewers don't get the kinds of pH surprises home brewers do.

Phone typing goof on the hardness thing. I was thinking temporary vs permanent but ran out of thumb patience.

Likewise I agree with you that pro brewers don't adjust their mash pH on the fly. Once you're brewing the same beer over and over again you will know what adjustments you need to make to make your desired finished beer and your surprises come from ingredient variability.

 

[PeteNMA]

Here's a thought though: what if only the mash water has such a high level of sulfate, and the sparge water is not salted or salted less? Thus diluting the sulfate in the final beer.

Hacking through this with Excel I can't find a sensible sparge scheme to come from 750ppm of sulfate down to 150 or so, especially given Kimmichs comments about ending sparge earlier than typically recommended at 3-5P runnings.

 

[Gavin C]

I understand that, but the calculators are wildly different. It wouldn't bother me so much if they were all "roughly" the same.

5.1-5.3 was suggested by the Head Brewer of Heady Topper. He said if you mash at 5.4, you failed. ---youtube.com/watch?v=LdfySDN2mF0--- around 42 minutes in.


That's what I thought too about the gypsum, but a sample of the beer was sent into Ward Labs and it was 750 ppm hardness. But then again, the same sheet showed mash pH said 4.8 so IDK.

Why should they be similar. They are two different interpretations of multiple variables to spit out 1 piece of data (mash pH)

Your expectations are too high.

You need to measure mash pH and decide for yourself which tool gives the best predictive powers. IME Bru'n water is excellent. That statement of course is predicated on me being confident in my data.

I anticipate no such confidence in my data from yourself so you really need to explore how to accurately measure mash pH if it is something you care about controlling.

There are multiple potentially useful tools at your disposal. Don't expect a $20 pH meter to be up to the task. Explore this topic in the brew science forum if you want to have more control of pH than a predictive algorithm can (and often will) bring.

Also a mash pH of 5.2 should NOT be a ubiquitous target. I'm not suggesting you think it is but it is so often touted as a golden number as to be ridiculous. Sorry in advance for stating the obvious. Best of luck with your clone. Something Ive never done.

Piper's bottom line: You need to measure actual mash pH and do so accurately if controlling this parameter is important to you.

 

[ajdelange]

Hacking through this with Excel I can't find a sensible sparge scheme to come from 750ppm of sulfate down to 150 or so, especially given Kimmichs comments about ending sparge earlier than typically recommended at 3-5P runnings.

Don't need Excel for that. To dilute sulfate down by a factor of 5 you would need 4 parts sulfate free water to each part mash. That would be some sparge but certainly not a very sensible one!

 

[PeteNMA]

For sure. I was looking at splitting some of the gypsum between mash and sparge water but it seems increasingly unlikely that this is what happens. I already have the excel sheet built up for my system so I tend to use it by default.

I'm going to try the 350ppm chloride and 150ppm sulfate once my 2015 hops come in. Past attempts at this beer have used a similar approach but this is a step further than I've been before

 

[EyePeeA]

Why should they be similar. They are two different interpretations of multiple variables to spit out 1 piece of data (mash pH)

Your expectations are too high.

It is really that silly to worry about limiting complications when brewing a very expensive double IPA? This beer is costing me upwards of $80-90. I mean, on the topic of Gypsum, 33 grams vs. 16 grams vs. 11 grams is quite a difference. One of them suggests to basically double the lactic acid addition. And one says the treated water will be -59 Alkalinity while the other references -115. So, basically it's a crapshoot.

Also a mash pH of 5.2 should NOT be a ubiquitous target. I'm not suggesting you think it is but it is so often touted as a golden number as to be ridiculous. Sorry in advance for stating the obvious. Best of luck with your clone. Something Ive never done.

Yes... For this particular beer though, I'm targeting the 5.1-5.3 range.

You need to measure actual mash pH and do so accurately if controlling this parameter is important to you.

I haven't the slightest clue how to use one of these things and no understanding of the buffer and storage solutions, or even if it's worth the $100 cost. From the reviews I've read, the majority of them (even the expensive ones) fail within 3-9 months. If I were to get one, I would want it to be reliable and also gauge temperature as well.

 

[PeteNMA]

So you want to target a mash pH but don't want to measure it? How will you know if you've hit it?

 

[bobbrews]

So you want to target a mash pH but don't want to measure it? How will you know if you've hit it?

I assume he thought he could rely on the assistance 3 different calculators to reach a fairly accurate estimate. He also seems to be concerned about much more than just the mash pH.

OP, if you're cutting your city water with half distilled, I would add 12-14 grams of gypsum and 5-6 ml 88% lactic acid. These are safe values where you're not going to mess up your beer, but you still have a low mash pH and high level of hardness. If you want to be adventurous and shoot for 750 mg/L, then add approx. 32-35 grams gypsum (which is about 8-9 level teaspoons in a starting volume of 7.5 gallons). If you are serious about cloning this beer, I would do both on two separate occasions. Go with the lesser amount first, of course.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Yes... For this particular beer though, I'm targeting the 5.1-5.3 range.

I emailed Kimmich a while ago when I saw that YouTube interview. I asked him about his recommendation for pH. Surprisingly, he responded pretty quickly - as expected, he was talking about pH at mash temperature not room temperature.

Anyway, brew this both ways - at 5.1 at room temp and 5.4 at room temp. Report back what you prefer. That's what I did (but not with a Heady clone). I much preferred the IPA in which I targeted 5.4. But everyone is different - you may like what you get when you shoot for 5.1. However, it's not what Kimmich brews.

Good luck!