Confessions...My beer doesnt taste good

[MrPowers]

First of all, I don't think the issue here is sanitation either. That said, the rest of this thread is a mouthful, so please bear with me.

I think the first thing to do here is to make sure you're using good water (i.e. NO Chlorine/Chloramine). Just because the water tastes good, that does not necessarily mean that it's good to brew with. Search the thread on here "A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer" by Yooper I think. Try brewing a proven recipe, once, using reverse osmosis or distilled water following the directions in that thread. It dramatically improved my beer.

The second thing is temperature control. The issue here is, fermentation produces heat (especially more aggressive yeasts). It might be 5-10 degrees warmer in the fermentor than ambient temperature in your chamber. This creates two problems. At the peak of fermentation activity, you need some way to suppress the temperature to keep it within the temperature range the Yeast prefer (i.e. A chest freezer). The second, and possibly more important issue is, you want fermentation to end AT OR ABOVE the warmest temperature the fermenter reached during fermentation, so you need some way to heat it. This can be done using your little space heater, or placing the fermenter in a warmer ambient temperature than it was held at during fermentation (moving it to a different room).

The reason this is important is because, as fermentation slows down toward the end, the Yeast are no longer as active, therefore they are not producing as much heat. At this point, the Yeast start to transition to cleaning up off flavors they left during fermentation, rather than consuming sugars. Since they are not producing as much heat, the temperature of the fermenter drops and this can cause Yeast to stall and drop out. If that happens, they won't be able to clean up those off flavors and you will notice it in your beer. It will generally just come across as a "rough" or "unrefined" character.

 

[jack13]

I have to confess....my beer doesnt taste good.

Doesnt anyone else feel like their homebrew is very subpar to commercially produced beer? I mean, I hear guys on here say a lot, that their homebrew is great tasting. I know taste is subjective, but its hard for me to believe, knowing how my beer tastes and that the brewing process is simple and kind of hard to screw up. I guess I need to get involved in the KC homebrew scene and actually taste other dudes homebrews....compare tastes and methods.

I always prefer a commercial craft beer to one of mine. Never had a homebrew that tasted so good I drank it all up. And sometimes I get tired of the rising cost of kits and the never ending stream of new equipment. It aint a cheap hobby anymore.

I learned to brew from my Dad. He began with extract-only kits about 30 years ago and still does those. He likes his beers, but privately I rarely agree with him. His beers taste like mine; subpar to commercial. I dont think he makes bad beers either, maybe its just a defect/truth of extract kits?

I have done the BIAB thing for a bout two years now, with same results - I dont like my beers. Maybe I need to take a class or 'beerfriend' a guy who does things differently and learn from him. I just feel like Im in a rut and I dont look forward to brewing anymore. In fact, it makes me nervous to order a kit and once it arrives, I put off brewing it. Just feels like a waste of money.

I guess if I could single out one factor in my methods that might be suspect, its gotta be sanitation...although I have to admit, Im not sure my beers have suffered a sanitation issue. Ive had slow fermentors, fast fermentors, and beers taste different than I predicted, based on kit names and the taste profile I was going after.

I do sanitize with bleach and "the foam" but am never sure. Seems like there's always a sudden need for a tool I didnt sanitize, or I realize too late that I grabbed something with my hands, and Im not sure if my hands are sanitary. Its frustrating. I want to enjoy the process....but it does NOT relax me. Anyone else feel the same? Anyone in the KC area want to buy all my equipment and bottles? Ha!

Just looking for other sympathetic souls out there who might feel their beers dont taste as good as beer from the store.

I suppose this is like asking priests, in a room full of priests..."Anyone else feel like God doesnt exist?"...but fess up here. Id be especially interested in someone's story of how they changed their methods and their beers taste changed for the better.

Any chance you are also being much more critical of your own brews, which ends up amplifying any flaws? I think I am in a different state of mind when I sit down and drink one of my own than when I grab a commercial beer (though the latter is becoming very very rare).

But regarding your very last point: for me, as for others here, changing my water made a big difference. Switched to RO. I have so much iron in my tap water that it was making all my brews oxidize, even when I minimized oxygen exposure post-ferm.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

How about download the free version of Bru'NWater and start adjusting your water with brewing salts and pH adjustment.
I pretty much guarantee that if you aren't using old plastic fermenters and tubing (again, they need to be replaced periodically), you tap water is the problem. Some places have tap water that is fine for brewing, or at least not detrimental. Many places have terrible water for brewing.

If you can sit a warm glass of tap water out and smell or taste ANYTHING in it (chlorine, sulfur, etc) then it's going to be bad for your beer, and a lot of stuff like chloramines will be detrimental even below your taste/smell threshold.

 

[McKnuckle]

There are lots of good points in this thread, but to keep things simple, it's your water.

It's in every beer you brew from extract to AG and in between, from pilsner to porter. Whenever someone pleads for help with a persistent "badness" in every brew it almost always ends up being their water. The rest of the ideas are just a (worthwhile) discussion of best practices.

Read the water primer sticky on the Brew Science sub-forum for some quick and dirty guidelines to prepare decent quality brewing water.

 

[bluemoon737]

You are not doing "biab" which is an all grain brewing method. You are extract brewing with kits that include "steeping grains" sometimes called a mini mash. With this method, you could easily get by with just using Campden tablets in your water to get rid of the Chlorine and Chloramines.

I would also suggest a yeast nutrient added to your boil. I use Wyeast's version and have never had an issue with healthy fermentation. I always use it, others might say it's a waste of money.

 

[ericbw]

You can also boil the water or leave it out over night so the chlorine dissipates. Lots of ways to handle it. I use spring water for AG or sometimes RO if it is just extract. Or sometimes RO for AG if I don't have spring water.

I think there is some misunderstanding about your recipes and process. Are you doing all grain BIAB, or are you steeping some grains and using extract? What size batches?

What do you mean by strike water?

 

[TheHopfather]

OK, campden tablets ordered.

I should add that Im not an AG brewer, yet. So Im not using strike water. and this brings up another issue which I'll explain here briefly, but I dont want to water down this topic.

So with biab kits, Im supposed to start with 1 gal of water and steep the grains. one gal of water wont even begin to soak a bag of grains. I need at least 2-3 gals to do that first step and so then I have very little room left for strike water. And I'll look up acidification but I dont know what you mean by that just now....hasnt been an issue as an extract brewer till now.

However, aside from that I agree my water isnt ideal. I went through this testing a year or two ago and concluded that I didnt know enough to say the water was the problem. I tried brewing several batches with distilled water and got similar results. So I backed off buying d water and went back to tap. Common sense told me EVERYONES tap water must have the chlorines in it, or it wouldnt be safe to drink. I mean, is everyone adding campden tablets? Im not arguing the point, as Ive ordered the tablets but am skeptical. I dont know....its so many variables and my head hurts.

Are you brewing all grain or extract? You say you aren't an AG brewer and then immediately say you are brewing BIAB. BIAB IS all grain brewing.

When brewing all grain you really, really need to pay attention to your water. All municipal water is treated with chlorine or chlorimine, the accept level for either of those in brewing water is ZERO. You need to remove them from your water or you will end up with chlorophenols in your beer, they don't taste good. Think plastic or band-aid flavor.

Your water is also pretty alkaline. That means that your mash pH is most likely going to be too high. You need to try to keep your mash pH in the 5.3 to 5.6 pH range if you want the best tasting beer. In order to do that you will have to use an acid to overcome the alkalinity in your water. You've also got pretty high sodium and sulfate levels in your water. Sodium that high may make your beer taste salty, think Gatorade. Sulfate will accentuate hop bitterness, which may be your problem with the saison you mentioned.

My advice would be to change up your water to RO, or learn how to adjust the water you have now. Go read the water primer - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Good luck!

 

[Biscuits]

Truth be told, until recently my beers were hit or miss. I was making the random tasty beer-not commercial standard-but enough to keep me brewing. I also had an excuse, I was moving a lot and as the size of my digs got smaller, so did my brew gear....so I just blamed it on not being able to dial in my system. To a degree, I do believe this was part of my issue as now that I am settled, my beers have improved exponentially. However, I also changed a few things that I think might have been the smoking guns....I don't bottle anymore...everything goes into a keg and where before I was primarily just sprinkling on dry yeast...I now rehyrdrate if I use dry yeast at all and I make starters for my liquid yeast.

I will also admit that I am not a huge stickler for sanitation. I want to caveat that with the fact that I have never had an infection. I usually just rinse out my mashtun with water and make sure the ball valve gets clean water run through it for a minute or two. My kettle is basically the same...I rinse it out with the hose and run my hand along the inside to rub off any break/hop material that may be stuck to it. Granted, my kegs/kegerator get a little more attention, but the way I see it....everything on the hot side is getting boiled anyway...no reason to waste time and energy on crazy cleaning...I pay more attention to the cold side.

I do agree that getting into a club will help tremendously. I was always on either end of the spectrum about my beers. I thought they were either the best thing to be made with water or that they were unfit for consumption. When I joined a brew club I realized a few things: #1 I was not alone in these feelings....and usually I was half right. #2 I actually knew as much, if not more, than some of the members who were pros! #3 It helped me a ton to talk to other people about their process and compare/contrast it to mine....brewing with other people took me to the next level.

If you were to ask me, I'd say that it is refreshing to hear someone be honest about their homebrew. Too often I hear people ranting and raving about their beer and then I taste it and I am wondering if they truly believe it is good, if they are just new to it and excited, or if they are just putting on a face to try and alter peoples perception. At any rate, if you're not brewing to the standard you want...you've recognized there is a problem, now identify the deficiency and correct it. Half of the fun of brewing is being able to make tangible changes. This forum is filled with peoples opinions on what is the "right" way to do stuff, but truth be told...there is no "right" way....just the way that works for you. Maybe your process is in need of some revamping, but I wouldn't go changing equipment just yet. Make simple changes now and try to isolate things that make your beer better...or even what makes them worse.

Anyway, I am rambling on and on, but I think this is an opportunity for you to make some changes that could potentially reap satisfying rewards. Of course though, RDWHAHB!

 

[stpug]

Bandaid, iodine, antiseptic, medicinal are the typical off characteristics you'll get from chlorine/-amine in your brew water as it gets converted to chlorophenols. While chlorine is fairly volatile and actually could be boiled off during the wort boiling, chloramines are not volatile and do not readily boil off. Any additional water you may add to "top up" you batch afterwards needs to be treated as well - you may be better off with distilled for topping up (the benefit here is that you can refrigerate your top up water and it can actually help you get to pitching temps quicker). Metabisulfites/campden are needed anytime you use your tap water for brewing.

Your water is also very hard and not ideal for most beer brewing. Workable? Maybe, but not ideal. High magnesium, high sulfate, high sodium really dictates the range of beers that would be successful with this water. Diluted with 50-75% distilled and acidified appropriately will increase it's usefulness in brewing considerably.

 

[ericbw]

Yes, but your "higher temps are okay" approach ONLY works for Belgians, and let's face it, who wants to drink Belgian funk ALL the time?

For everything else, about 70F ambient is about the max you'd want for ales.

If you read through this thread, you'll see that the OP leans toward Belgian styles because that's what he likes. These are all subpar. These are yeasts that need higher temps to be good.

He made a good golden ale and a good pale ale. These thrive at the temps he says he has.

That's why I say he needs it warmer. I'm not suggesting that he or anyone without temp control just make Belgians. But he seems to be trying to make those.

I know what you're saying, though. Lots of threads where people can't control their temps, and someone says, "Just call it a saison!" But if you're trying to make a pale ale or an Irish Red, that would be nasty. S-04 yeast is gross to me if it is over 66 or so. I couldn't figure out why I never liked my beers I made with it. I think that's why.

And you're right - it only works with Belgian styles. Any other style with those aromas are definitely off

 

[ceb12]

I only do extract beers. I have made several that I would say not only rival commercial beers, but surpass them. Like anyone, I've had some duds too.

Similar to what others have said, there are ways you can try to improve, or at least eliminate things that are causing the issues. Personally, I never use bleach. Starsan is just too easy to use, requires no rinsing and just a couple minutes contact does the job. Temperature control is important. I made a recent batch and didn't have adequate temperature control during first day or 2 of primary- beer had a distinct after taste.

 

[mboardman]

OK perfect! I will use the tablets and get rid of the bleach. Replace with PBW and more starsan. One more thought - would my water quality negate the use of starsan? Id read that hard water neutralizes starsan...and my solutions are cloudy, but tests on the strip at 2-3.

Someone asked what my process is, and I'll do my best to describe:

Brewing - I have an 8 gal Mega pot with a temp probe at about the 3gal mark, no racking valve. I have the usual small equipment, and multiples of most things - thermometers, grav readers, etc. Using a gas stove and two separate plastic laundry sinks. On brew day I usually fill one sink with 5-8 gals of tap water and 1-2 oz of starsan. Second sink is for cooling the kettle at end of boil, using ice packs and swapping out the water 2-3 times in 40 mins. It usually takes about 40 mins to cool a batch down to 80F. Usually use tap water for everything.

Fermentation - I use a mixture glass carboys and the popular plastic big mouth fermentors with spigots. Its safe to say come secondary transfer time, I probably introduce a fair amount of oxygen while racking. I generally pull the primary out of the fermentor room and set it on the counter the night before. Next day I auto siphon beer into the secondary if necessary. Below I have the sanitized secondary and even with a low flow rate through the auto siphon hose it seems I get a fair amount of bubbles and a little bit of foam. This bothers me but am unsure what I can do about it. Fermentors go into an old shower that I havent used in over 10 years. I built a loosely fitting door (to contain heat but also to allow ventilation) and lined the walls inside with 1/2" hard foam insulation. I take notes each brew, and use iphone calendar to remind me when to rack, bottle, check for grav, etc.

Kegging is simple, but again, the racking process is probably introducing a good amount of oxygen. Simple hoses and siphoning. Im just about ready to get rid of bottling completely, as its an unpleasant hassle of label removal, cleaning inside, and relabeling. But it is an easy way to share the beer.

Not sure what else to include, suspect my methods are pretty standard. I will say that with these new biab kits, I have issues with the amount of water they recommend for the initial soak and sparging. I just reverse them, and Im having trouble finding a wide enough strainer basket for the grain bag to drain from. Strainers just arent built to accomodate a 12inch kettle rim....

 

[ericbw]

Describe how you do biab. How much water, etc?

 

[eric19312]

ericbw made my point before I got to it. Now that we know you are focusing on belgians your main issue may not be temperature control. I tend to brew belgians in spring and fall to increase my pipeline since I let them go ambient in my garage.

I would not agree with his other points though. Your basement is too warm for ale yeast like wlp001 since the fermentation temperature will be well above ambient and you could easily be in the mid 70s during peak fermentation in a 68F room. I'd guess it is about right for free rising belgians. Perhaps you want ability to give them a bit of warmth at very end of fermentation to eek out last bit of attenuation before yeast throws in the towel.

Water issue seems more likely. Definitely get rid of those chloramines. Perhaps try a batch with RO/distilled water from store and build up salt profile. This would be inexpensive and might make a bigger difference than you would think. If that works perhaps an RO system is in your future.

 

[azmark]

Another step up in quality is going to All Grain. You can make excellent extract beer, but you have the uncertainty of the quality and age of your extract.

 

[eric19312]

OK perfect! I will use the tablets and get rid of the bleach. Replace with PBW and more starsan. One more thought - would my water quality negate the use of starsan? Id read that hard water neutralizes starsan...and my solutions are cloudy, but tests on the strip at 2-3.

if you weren't treating for the chloramines that could be pretty much the whole issue

Fermentation - I use a mixture glass carboys and the popular plastic big mouth fermentors with spigots. Its safe to say come secondary transfer time, I probably introduce a fair amount of oxygen while racking. I generally pull the primary out of the fermentor room and set it on the counter the night before. Next day I auto siphon beer into the secondary if necessary. Below I have the sanitized secondary and even with a low flow rate through the auto siphon hose it seems I get a fair amount of bubbles and a little bit of foam. This bothers me but am unsure what I can do about it. Fermentors go into an old shower that I havent used in over 10 years. I built a loosely fitting door (to contain heat but also to allow ventilation) and lined the walls inside with 1/2" hard foam insulation. I take notes each brew, and use iphone calendar to remind me when to rack, bottle, check for grav, etc.

Probably don't need the secondary. This is technique left over from home wine making and most people I talk to are skipping it.

Kegging is simple, but again, the racking process is probably introducing a good amount of oxygen. Simple hoses and siphoning. Im just about ready to get rid of bottling completely, as its an unpleasant hassle of label removal, cleaning inside, and relabeling. But it is an easy way to share the beer.

I know the oxygen guys are going to land on you with both feet but I'm just not sure that is the issue. You are not making lagers and you are not making hoppy beers. Best belgian beers are not kegged, they are refermented in the bottle. That process scrubs the beers of oxygen that got introduced during the bottling process. If you do keg belgian beers I suggest you naturally carbonate them to mimic the bottle conditioning process.

I also really doubt anything you are doing in the mashing process is responsible for your dissatisfaction with the end product. Again I can hear the LODO guys coming from over the hill but aside from that idea most of mashing comes down to whether you are getting enough fermentable sugars out of the grain. If you are hitting expected OG and FG you are good to go. If you are missing OG low you can look at improving efficiency. If you are hitting OG but missing FG high you can look to improve attenuation.

 

[McKnuckle]

On brew day I usually fill one sink with 5-8 gals of tap water and 1-2 oz of starsan.

What do you use the water in that sink for? Do you transfer it to your mash tun? I hope not! The liquid will have a very low pH and be unsuitable for brewing.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

So the simple answer to your question is no, I don't think my beers are sub-par. I think my beers are commercial-quality. Maybe not all at the level of the best craft beers on the market, but if you came to my house and drank from my kegerator, I would think that you'd find my beer to be something that you wouldn't feel uncomfortable paying for at a typical brewery.

I definitely see a few potential things here:

1) Extract/kits. You can make good beer from extract. But it needs to be fresh extract. In a lot of kits, the extract has been packaged for too long and sits around. I'd also say that if you're making Belgian beer from kits, it is probably using light malt extract. This might be too dark for the delicate base of a Belgian beer. If you can get extra-light extract, or even better to use pilsner malt extract, it will probably help some of this. Order from a reputable online source where you expect they have high stock turnover, so that the freshness is better.

2) Racking. Oxygen is the devil when it comes to beer, and *many* people have had issues with autosiphon. I completely swore off the autosiphon early on. If you're seeing bubbles, you're getting O2 in your beer. That's not good. I use this method which I posted about recently.

3) Water, as others have pointed out. If you're doing extract, just buy big 5 gal bottles of filtered spring water. You don't need distilled or RO for extract. But even for extract, you need water without chlorine/chloramine, and it sounds like your water might be too high in dissolved minerals for "ideal".

4) Secondary. If you're kegging, don't use secondary. Simply rack directly from your fermenter into your serving keg. If you are worried about the beer clearing, let it sit in your kegerator at serving temp for a week and then pull off the first 1-2 cloudy pints. Secondary is just one additional chance to oxidize your beer. A bottling bucket is yet another additional chance to oxidize your beer. Minimizing transfers (particularly since you say you have trouble with oxygen during racking) will help.

5) Kegging vs bottling: If you need to fill bottles, FILL THEM FROM THE KEG. The nice thing about this is that your bottles will be carbonated and clear compared to bottle conditioning. There are methods to fill from the keg that will minimize oxygen pickup, whether it's a counterpressure bottle filler or a homemade rig.

That's not even getting into fermentation temperature control, which it sounds like you're only marginal on for typical American ales (although for Belgian styles your temps should be ok).

But the key to remember is that making beer is very much process-driven. At each step of your process you have the chance to reduce quality. Honing each process step to minimize the likelihood of doing something that damages the beer will get you there.

And there's always room for improvement. I was making beer I really enjoyed almost 9 years into the hobby. It was consistently good, and I was doing fairly well in competitions when I actually got off my butt and got around to entering. But at that point I went from tap water to RO water + minerals (I do AG). And I immediately saw a marked improvement in my beer quality, particularly for pale styles (which is often hard to brew with poor water). They went from good to great. And I recently discovered I wasn't even doing it right. I was mistakenly not adding enough acid to my mash water because I wasn't using my spreadsheet right, and so I just changed that two batches ago and am waiting to see how much improvement that very simple adjustment made.

So keep at it. If you keep trying to improve your process, your beers can ABSOLUTELY reach commercial quality consistently.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Regarding Star San:
The hard water problem is only a problem if you want to keep it around for a while in solution.
If you mix up a few gallons to use on brewday or a few days before, even, it'll be fine. If you want to fill a spray bottle with solution to keep around for weeks or months just to spritz the occasional surface or item, then you should mix that with distilled water so it will keep.

 

[z-bob]

I'm still not sure what method you're using.

Nope, wasnt aware. Wouldnt every municipality use chlorine to sanitize their tap water?

Almost all of them do (some might use ozone instead, I don't know.) But a lot have started adding a little ammonia too, to stabilize the chlorine. That's where the chloramine comes from.

My beer got a lot better when I started mixing RO water with the tapwater (to dilute the alkalinity) and adding acid malt. I participated in a club "big brew" where everybody brought 5 gallons of RO water, and we built the water up from that and brewed a wheat beer on someone's 1bbl brewery and took 5 gallons of wort home. That beer turned out awesome even tho' I fermented it way too warm (I used T-58 yeast, and it apparently likes warm)

1. If you're brewing all-grain, you need to get your water under control. (if you're doing extract beers, the water is less important but you still need to treat tapwater for chlorine/chloramine)
2. And you need to use yeasts that will work with whatever temperature you have.
3. And you need to brew beers that you like. (that one's profound, ain't it?) I've been brewing cream ales and malty blonde beers this year, and brewing the same couple of beers over and over. I didn't even know that I liked cream ale.
4. Sanitation is important, but it sounds like you know that already and are doing okay there. Fix everything else, then look at sanitation again.

I just recently heard of a yeast called "Hothead" that will ferment clean on the 90's. I'm going to try it next summer.

 

[madscientist451]

I
I always prefer a commercial craft beer to one of mine. Never had a homebrew that tasted so good I drank it all up. And sometimes I get tired of the rising cost of kits and the never ending stream of new equipment. It aint a cheap hobby anymore.


I do sanitize with bleach and "the foam" but am never sure.
Just looking for other sympathetic souls out there who might feel their beers dont taste as good as beer from the store.

Short answer to your post, do these 4 things for better beer:

1. Stop using kits, some of my best brews have very simple grain bills, maybe 2 malts. The sooner you get used to putting together your own ingredients, the better.
2. Don't use bleach, use star san.
3. Get a small freezer/temp control unit for fermentation control, they are pretty cheap used and actually pretty cheap brand new.
4. Stop bottling and start kegging. My beer flavors were inconsistent, some good, some not so good until I started kegging.

I can guarantee that your beer will get better if you do the above 4 things.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well, Ive had to do almost nothing about this, because my basement is pretty consistent in temp, always about 69-70 in warmer months and 60-62 in colder months...

To be honest, I have been trying to brew belgian styles for the last couple of years, because Im drawn to those styles, and its been frustrating. The few beers I did have turn out alright were actually not belgian at all -
a light golden ale and a pale ale clone. So youre advice might be right here.

So let's hold onto that - you have made beer that turned out alright. That knocks out a whole load of "systematic" factors, and turns attention more on what's different between your pale ales and your Belgians.

One obvious comment is that you're comparing yourself with some of the world's greatest brewers, even if you're a pretty good homebrewer it can be like you're the guy who might be #20 in the world that Roger Federer beats in straight sets in the first round.

I'm still not quite clear whether you're using extract or all-grain (is that BIAB just for the speciality grain? That might be something to look at). But I don't think it's a secret that extract is not as good as all-grain. It's fine for hop-led styles, but any imperfection in your malt is really obvious in a malt-led beer like - just about any Belgian style. So trying to match a world-class Belgian with extract is a bit like facing Federer with a baseball bat. So if you want to come close to world-class Belgian beers, I'd suggest all-grain would be high up the list of places to start.

Obviously it's nice to have detailed control of your fermentation temperature - but your basement sounds about as good as it gets without going into detailed control of temperature. Many British homebrewers (and historical commercial breweries) have similar conditions to what you describe, it's good enough for now. When you're nearly at the stage of throwing in the towel because brewing is feeling like a bit of a money pit, then there's no point buying lots of new hardware, and given where you are with the basement, a fermentation fridge is nice to have rather than an essential.

My saison tasted too bitter, but since then have tasted other saisons that were just as bad so not sure there...maybe saisons are so widely ranged in taste that there needs to be a classification for each taste variance. My Moinette and La Fin Du Monde clones turned out terrible. I dumped them out after shelving them for 4 years in hopes of maturation/conditioning.

"Too bitter" - are we talking bitter as in beery bitterness, or was it more like the dry astringency you get from a stewed cup of tea? Possibly suggests problems with whatever you're BIABing - or was it just a recipe problem, too many bittering hops? If the former, too high a pH may well be the problem - some phosphoric or lactic acid will help here.

Or are you just less keen on saisons that you thought you were?

What was so terrible about the Moinette and La Fin Du Monde clones? It's a bit hard to diagnose if all we have to go on is "terrible". Taste is something that's hard to do over the internet, it's where a club or LHBS can help out.

I'd be tempted to repeat either the pale or golden again, but with some pH control of any BIAB element, and using Camden and non-bleach sanitiser to ensure no chlorine is getting near. Hopefully that will a) result in drinkable beer again, which will be good for your confidence and b)better beer than last time, so you can feel like you're making progress.

Then I'd either go all-grain or at least try a simpler Belgian recipe, something like a fairly "standard" tripel say without too many adjuncts or speciality grains, but some characterful yeast so that you can see what the yeast is bringing to the party. And go for a generic one that you can assess on its own merits, rather than trying to match a specific commercial beer. Try to bridge that gap between the pale ale and the Belgians, but in baby steps, not making lots of changes at once.

 

[bolus14]

I'm going to throw out a different perspective here while asking a couple clarifying questions. And, sorry for how long this post is!!

1. What method of brewing are you doing? Others have asked/explained earlier, but if you're getting kits and they're saying soak the grains in only 1 or 2 gal of water and then you're adding extract during the boil, then you're doing extract with steeping grains, not BIAB, which won't use extract. The exception is if you're using extract to make up for poor efficiency usually seen with high gravity beers.

2. If you're trying to get get Belgian beers, what yeast strains? I like to make some Belgians but have played with 4 or 5 strains so far and to me there are definite differences that could be turning you off to them, I stopped making any Belgians for a year and half because of this. Then, tried a couple different strains and enjoyed them better.

3. What are your fermentation/bottling/kegging schedules like? Can you explain when you're transferring to a secondary(if you're using one), how often are you checking the gravity, etc?

4. What isn't that you don't like about your beers? Are they not malty enough, by that I mean are you looking for more caramel/toffee, more dark fruit, etc? Do you not like the mouthfeel, too thin/too thick? With a golden or pale are you not getting the hope flavors you're looking for?
To clarify my thinking with those questions.

If you're thinking you're doing one style of brewing but are actually doing another, I would likely think there might be a process problem. If you're doing 100% extract brewing (which I doubt these days) we could start talking about when you're adding the extract and how much you're adding at certain points of the boil. If you're doing extract with steeping grains then the same applies, how much and when is extract being added? If you're doing BIAB we can talk about how much water you're mashing with, to sparge or not to sparge, how you're milling the grain, etc. Traditional all grain would lead to some of the same questions, but slightly more in the process.

Yeast strain, regardless of being Belgian or not, could be a big culprit. WY 1056 (American Ale) and WY 1272 (American Ale II) have noticeable differences to my palate, while a couple friends don't taste the difference with the same beer. WY 3711 (French Saison), WY 3724 (Belgian Saison), and WLP566 (Belgian Saison II), all give a different tasting saison to me. The same can go for Abbey strains, English strains, Hefe, etc. I don't venture much into using the supposed strain between yeast providers, such as 1056 and S-05, but some will say there are differences and some will say there isn't.

When it comes to schedule you stated that you use an app for the scheduling... there is NO set schedule, beer is like good BBQ it's done when it's done and if you try to rush it then it will change the end product, usually not for the better. You're dealing with living organisms for fermentation, they will work how they want to work, but there are "tricks" you can use to encourage them perform slightly differently at times.

Letting us know what aspects you don't like could lead us into the recipes you're using. One of my pet peeves about reading descriptions is they're too vague, malty, spicy, fruity, doesn't tell anybody anything. Malty could mean amongst other things caramelly or dark fruit(raisins/prunes, etc), those are two very different flavors in my book!! Spicy -same thing- are we talking black pepper, cinnamon, coriander, etc all very different flavors. Hops are a whole different world and just my two cents, too many just use the descriptions of citrus, fruity, earthy, dank, etc. If you're talking citrus do you mean lemon, lime, orange, grapefruit, etc they are all different. Fruity is just way too damn wide open, there are hundreds, if not thousands of fruits in this world, at least give us a couple of the fruit tastes you're getting. Dank, are we talking piney, tobacco like, etc...

While a lot of people are focused on water and fermentation temps, I know a few other homebrews, and myself included, that made very drinkable brews when we first started and weren't even thinking about water chemistry or focusing on fermentation temps. But, your tap water isn't horrible unless you're trying to make really fresh tasting IPA's and your fermentation temps might end up being a little high based on what you've said, but they're not ridiculous. We used tap water, treated with campden and started fermentation in the low 60's and let it do it's thing in a basement that was consistently 64-65 degrees. Treating your water and controlling temps will almost certainly help, but I don't think it's the culprit.

I think your main issues are expectations, possibly process, and possibly misunderstanding of kit/recipe descriptions.

 

[bobeer]

Yes, stop using bleach... Get some starsan and be done with it. Keep it in a spray bottle as it keeps for a long time. Just spray stuff down as you need to.

If you're not using fermentation temp control that is also a must for brewing good beer. Know what temp the yeast you're using likes and keep it at the proper temp for the first 7 days or so. Then up the temp and let the yeast clean things up for another 2 weeks. Look into a swamp cool if you don't have the funds to make a fermentation chamber.

If you're BIAB make sure you're getting a good fine crush so your efficiency is decent.

Are you hitting your target gravity when you brew? What is it about your beer that doesn't taste good? Off flavor? Watery/lack of taste? Bad smell? Please be as descriptive as possible so we can help you brew better beer!

Check out the old episodes of Brewing TV and Chop and Brew. Don O's youtube channel is good too.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Just thought of another one... A big one... Yeast!

Liquid or dry? Are you making a starter? How old/viable is the yeast (potentially an issue with kits)? What temp is the wort when you pitch?

If you're pitching a sub-optimal quantity of aged yeast into a too-hot wort, you're asking a lot of them to have them turn it into delicious beer.

 

[Sansnom]

Well, here’s my thoughts:

If you want beer closer to the stuff you can buy at the store, I would start looking into doing all grain. Even if it’s a 1 or 2 gallon batch. See if that helps. From what it sounds like, you're actually doing extract with steeping grains, not BIAB.

Other than that, pretty much everything else said here applies as well. If you want to brew beer that tastes like stuff made by commercial breweries, you need to think like them: Water chemistry, temperature control (throughout the entire process), yeast pitching rates, all grain, freshest ingredients possible, sanitation and good recipe design.

You can brew amazing beer, but it takes some effort. I would start with a simple BIAB batch, maybe an IPA or something hoppy.

 

[augiedoggy]

I would have to guess that at the peak of fermentation the interior of a fermenter can reach 5 to 10 degrees F. above ambient air temperature. Particularly with some of the aggressive ale yeasts.

Water chemistry and mash pH could also be contributing to your dissatisfaction. Are you perhaps using chlorinated city water?

I was going to say the same thing... I was a a small brewery recently on a vacation trip where they owner made beer that had come out very fruity and needless to say it was because he thought making the fermenter room all one temp for everything would mean everything inside would be that temp and ferment there... you could tell the yeast got too warm.

 

[TBC27]

I have a rather hard time telling if my beer is as good as a quality micro-brew, since whether or not I personally show any dissatisfaction toward it (which is admittedly sometimes the case) my children (all grown adults above the age of 30), friends, and relatives all swear it is the best beer they ever tasted. I try to encourage them to be honest, but it seems that this is to no avail.

+1 on this!

 

[applescrap]

Use the best water you can afford, or buy ro and build a profile. Go all grain and use good recipes. These are the keys you need imho. Try the founders breakfast stout recipe released by the brewer.

 

[foam_top]

I won't repeat what so many have already stated but I would like to mention pertinent matter. First, I would say about 3 out of 4 batches I brew are comparable to many of the commercial beers, give-or-take. However, it may sound like I'm boasting but really I think a lot of commercial beers are underwhelming. If you're going to charge 10 USD for a sixer (common price for craft beer) then it should always be as good or better than a homebrewer who has ~2 years experience (myself). That's my take on homebrew vs commercial at the moment.