Compound leaching from Plastic/PVC equipment

[engineerrock]

Are these analyses anything that have been published or that you can share? Are you using a standard test method for extraction (i.e. NSF 61)? I'm wondering how DEHP shows up in things where it is not intentionally added. Is it at parts per billion in the environment?

Most plants that process plastics specialize in one kind or the other, so cross contamination is unlikely...

And apologies for hijacking this thread on something distantly related to brewing...

wantonsoup - thanks for keeping this discussion going. while most folks just shrug it off (as we've seen in this thread) i'm sure in the long term more folks will begin to understand. i have personally seen this compound, bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate a/k/a DEHP, show up in my laboratory analyses more times than not when using polyethylene, vinyl, PVC, etc. no study but through actual personal experience. sure we're talking parts per billion, but it IS still leaching at low (50's-60's) temperatures. the only thing that doesn't leach while i'm doing environmental sampling is Teflon. i sure hope high temp Silicon is just as good as that's what i'm using in my homebrewery. my homebrewery is 100% SS with some copper tidbits. no plastics anywhere other than my kegerator draft system.

 

[mattd2]

Allow me to quote some pages I've just found to support my concerns.

http://www.calpipes.org/ProtectingCalifornians_CPVC.asp
Leaching studies commissioned by the State of California and conducted by UC Berkeley found that CPVC plumbing pipe systems may leach potentially toxic chemicals such as chloroform, tetrahydrofuran, methyl ethyl ketone, acetone and organotins into drinking water. These chemicals may cause cancer in humans or other serious health impacts. When leached from CPVC plumbing systems, the public may be exposed to these chemicals through consumption of drinking water, inhalation and skin exposure during bathing.

http://water.epa.gov/drink/contamina...l-chloride.cfm
Some people who drink water containing vinyl chloride well in excess of the maximum contaminant level (MCL) for many years may have an increased risk of cancer.

That took me 30 seconds and with more time I could quote studies that show increased cancer risks from all types of vinyl in contact with food and drink. Rigid, chlorinated, flexible (with phthalates), etc. All of it will eventually be banned when it's found to be definitely cancerous. You're free to make your own choice. I make mine.

So your 30 second search found:
A) a study that found that some chemical may leach, and they may cause cancer and maybe the public could be exposed to them?
B) Some people who ingested much more than the maximum limit of a chemical may have an increase risk of cancer
Sounds conclusive.
Also I know you are not the OP but it would seem that none of the compounds you list as leaching are the originally specified Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate.
The biggest issue with alarmist is the confusion of information:
Right at the beginning of this thread we are warned about using PVC and PE because all PVC will leach DEHP (even the stuff that DEHP isn't even added to? and what about the PE, why was that mentioned in the first sentence if we are now talking about all PVC?)
Then it goes on to talk in general terms about PVC/Poly/Plastic as if they are all the same thing - they are not as has been explain above and in the other threads. Then it goes on to imagine what is happening - not what is happening, what is imagined to happen, i.e. there is no scientific method to this madness.

If anyone wants to make a point about a health concern I welcome it and think it should be raised (especially on here as many probably would not know otherwise), but make sure any concern is clear and concise, does not rely on using technical terms to fear monger, does not confuse the issue with irrelevant information and any claims are substantiated with additional sources.

And engineerrock - I don't think you are hijacking this thread at all since you are providing additional information on the original subject (it is just not along the same lines as the OPs)

 

[wantonsoup]

The company I work for makes most kinds of pipe for potable water including PE, PP, PEX, PVC, CPVC, ductile iron, and multilayer, and brass fittings.

Most plants that process plastics specialize in one kind or the other, so cross contamination is unlikely....

Those two sentences don't really fit together. Of course now you'll tell me that each plastic is made in it's own plant and never the twain shall meet?

none of the compounds you list as leaching are the originally specified Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate.

Polycarbonate leaches BPA. This is why most polycarbonate items have switched to other materials (water bottles, blender jars, etc).

Of course, there is plenty of nuttery going on in the industry, putting large BPA FREE stickers on things that never did and never would have BPA, like Pyrex or stainless bowls. But that's no different from sugary items having large FAT FREE stickers on them at the grocery store. Sometimes safety sells. It has no bearing on the actual dangers or concerns of BPA.

Anyway, instead of putting all of the burden on me, why don't you spend three minutes and Google some of this? There are countless studies out there, sponsored by real government and educational and scientific entities, and published in all the big journals, about what leaches what. As I mentioned, I've done this research and have determined what I am comfortable with. Here's my conclusions:

1 - PET / PETE
Can leach antimony

3 - Vinyl
Can leach all sorts of nasty stuff

6 - Polystyrene
Can leach all sorts of nasty stuff

7 - Unknown, they aren't telling you what's in it.

2 - HDPE
4 - LDPE
5 - PP
Should be considered safe under most circumstances.

 

[mattd2]

...Polycarbonate leaches BPA. This is why most polycarbonate items have switched to other materials (water bottles, blender jars, etc).

Of course, there is plenty of nuttery going on in the industry, putting large BPA FREE stickers on things that never did and never would have BPA, like Pyrex or stainless bowls. But that's no different from sugary items having large FAT FREE stickers on them at the grocery store. Sometimes safety sells. It has no bearing on the actual dangers or concerns of BPA.

Anyway, instead of putting all of the burden on me, why don't you spend three minutes and Google some of this? There are countless studies out there, sponsored by real government and educational and scientific entities, and published in all the big journals, about what leaches what. As I mentioned, I've done this research and have determined what I am comfortable with. Here's my conclusions:

1 - PET / PETE
Can leach antimony

3 - Vinyl
Can leach all sorts of nasty stuff

6 - Polystyrene
Can leach all sorts of nasty stuff

7 - Unknown, they aren't telling you what's in it.

2 - HDPE
4 - LDPE
5 - PP
Should be considered safe under most circumstances.

Again - now we are talking about Polycarbonate leaching Bisphenol A - bouncing around all over the place doesn't help get the point across , it dilutes the actual specific message that is trying to be made. Without a clear concise message it will all get thrown out by most as alarmist.

I am not trying to say you are wrong - what I am trying to point out is the way a lot of people go about raising their concerns about plastics (or anything in general really) does not help them. Make point A, back up point A. Don't Make point A & B, back up point B and reference point C - that just confuses what the actual point was and brings out the "sky is falling" comments.

So given I only have 3 minutes Wikipedia is really the only source I can get through in that time.
Running down the recyclable list:

• 1 - Antimony is a catalyst used in the production of PET/PETE. Wiki mentions that the some reports noted leaching of Antimony into fruit juice of up to 44.7 ug/L. The WHO proposed TDI is 6ug/kg body weight - which for an 80 kg person (me) I would need to drink over 10 litres of fruit juice per day! Even a 15 kg kid would have to drink 2 litres of juice per day which I would say is not healthy (drink some water). I did a bit more thinking and research - the WHO RDI for sugar is 90g of sugar for an adult, and one source (1 - I know I should have more but meh) shows 24g of sugar per 240ml serving of orange juice - so 10g/100ml. So if I drink my 10 litres to get my Antimony kick I would also be ingesting 1kg of sugar (or 11x the RDI!)
• 3 - This was the original point of this thread
• 6 - Can you please provide more information on Polystyrene leaching? From what I have read (on Wiki again!) is Polystyrene is produced from the styrene monomer and will undergo polymerisation by itself with no added catalyst or molecules. Therefore it should only be able to leach styrene, which is a natural substances (original identified from the resin of the Turkish sweetgum tree) and naturally found in food sources.
• 7 - It is not that they are not telling you what is in it, the point is this is the final catch all class for anything that is not 1-6. Remember this is for recycling not for identifying what plastic it is.

 

[wantonsoup]

Again - now we are talking about Polycarbonate leaching Bisphenol A - bouncing around all over the place doesn't help get the point across , it dilutes the actual specific message that is trying to be made. Without a clear concise message it will all get thrown out by most as alarmist.

I address PC and BPA specifically. As well as other plastics and chemicals. The thread has certainly evolved past the original post made almost 5 years ago.

So given I only have 3 minutes Wikipedia is really the only source I can get through in that time.

Try google - Wikipedia isn't definitive or conclusive. Google can find you quite a lot of actual scientific journal-published studies on these topics.

Antimony ... I would need to drink over 10 litres of fruit juice per day! Even a 15 kg kid would have to drink 2 litres of juice per day which I would say is not healthy (drink some water). I did a bit more thinking and research ...

Think differently. Chemicals, compounds, and metals accumulate in your system. It's not all the daily serving. Would you consume half the amount of lead and mercury allowed every day and call it safe? Or do you think that over time they may accumulate and cause problems? We both know the answer to this.=

Polystyrene ... Therefore it should only be able to leach styrene, which is a natural substances (original identified from the resin of the Turkish sweetgum tree) and naturally found in food sources.

Styrene is a carcinogen and there are half a dozen major studies ongoing as we speak on nothing but the like between styrene and cancer. Especially when microwaving food in polystyrene it leaches styrene into the food.

7 - It is not that they are not telling you what is in it, the point is this is the final catch all class for anything that is not 1-6. Remember this is for recycling not for identifying what plastic it is.

Huh? 7 means you don't know what plastic or compound it's made from.

 

[mattd2]

I address PC and BPA specifically. As well as other plastics and chemicals. The thread has certainly evolved past the original post made almost 5 years ago.


Try google - Wikipedia isn't definitive or conclusive. Google can find you quite a lot of actual scientific journal-published studies on these topics.


Think differently. Chemicals, compounds, and metals accumulate in your system. It's not all the daily serving. Would you consume half the amount of lead and mercury allowed every day and call it safe? Or do you think that over time they may accumulate and cause problems? We both know the answer to this.=

Styrene is a carcinogen and there are half a dozen major studies ongoing as we speak on nothing but the like between styrene and cancer. Especially when microwaving food in polystyrene it leaches styrene into the food.


Huh? 7 means you don't know what plastic or compound it's made from.

Hahahahaha - I didn't actually realise this thread was 5 years old until you just told me

I could have done a google search and read some research articles/journals, but I would only be able to get through an abstract of a scientific journal in the 3 minutes.

Not all Chemicals, compounds, and metals bioaccumulate. Saying lead and mercury does, does not mean others do. Your body is able to break down a lot of stuff, and a lot of it is beneficial - Iron for example. From the looks it is not conclusive if Antimony is bioaccumulative or not - most of what I read either said not or that is does accumulate in certain organs (but was vague on if this was a short term accumulation or not). Of coarse the answer to you question is Yes, but that is because of the way you worded it by asking if it "may" not if it conclusively does or does not (and I know that is one point that if there is evidence that it can and can not at the same time you really need to way up the risks/benefits). And to you question on lead / mercury - are there RDI for these as all I could find was exposure limits - i.e. the maximum you can be exposed to at one time before it can start being a problem.

Yes polystyrene can depolymerise at high temperatures, and it is generally taken as best practice not to microwave it. But that doesn't mean it "Can leach all sorts of nasty stuff" all the time just sitting there on your table.
I did find this forum post on the subject http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/1bjzxo/can_you_microwave_styrofoam_is_it_safe_to_eat/

Yes #7 means that you as a consumer can not tell what plastic it is from just the recyclable number, but it does not mean it is bad for you. So my question to you is are all #7 plastics a health risk?

 

[wantonsoup]

You've clearly made up your mind - that's great! And no, #7 does not mean inherently dangerous. But it certainly doesn't mean inherently safe.